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Thread: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

  1. #91

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Beacon,

    At 4:30 pm ET, I had 4 refreshed eneloops reading 1.46 volts off the charger @ 800+ mah each

    I fired up the following:

    Fenix E01
    Peak Eiger #1 Luxeon
    Peak Eiger #1 XP-G
    Ti Preon on low
    Quark on moonlight for comparison

    I'm doing this to see if I at least get similar results on the E01 and Preon as you did with the same batteries. The Peaks are for kicks, but it will be interesting to see how the Luxeon does vs. the Cree.

    Will keep you posted

  2. #92
    Flashaholic Zendude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beacon of Light View Post
    I also took off 4 Duraloops that completed the refresh cycle. Since that involved it charging to full and then doing a slower discharge and charge and discharge repeatedly till it was optimized, that should have formed the batteries properly, effectively getting them broken in correct? They all read 800+ mAh so they should be good to go correct? I will test the problem lights and see if their results change. I'm most interested in the E01, Maratacs, Preons and the LF2XT since they seem so off from what they are "supposed" to be able to do on low mode. The other 4 Duraloops are still being refreshed and I am at work now but they should also be done when I return later tonight.

    I too, want to say thanks for doing this.

    I think part of the discrepancy is est. runtime for some of those lights are based on Alkies(which I believe are rated at ~1200mAh).

    Last edited by Zendude; 08-16-2010 at 03:30 PM.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zendude View Post
    I think part of the discrepancy is est. runtime for some of those lights are based on Alkies(which I believe are rated at ~1200mAh).
    This is exactly right. The E01, which you got 11 hours from sounds textbook for NiMH, if you want those insane moon mode runtimes, you have to do alkaline, NiMH and lithiums will give you better sun mode, but then drop like a brick. The simple sad fact is, your results reflect exactly what I thought was going to happen and why I don't give lights like the iTP much credit when they boast these ludicrous "50 hour" runtimes. I don't at all feel your tests were flawed due to the Duraloops, between your 2 tests, the numbers look consistent, I don't think you did anything wrong here.

    I think the lessons to be learned, don't believe in stated runtimes, simplicity reigns supreme (the simple 1 mode unregulated Eigers) and although they suck in high drain applications, alkalines are going to give you really huge runtime numbers in lights such as these.

    Thanks for doing these tests and also for your part in bringing the #0 and Sub Zero into the flashaholic world.

    Now, where's that Mortal Kombat guy? "Sub Zero wins. Flawless victory."
    What kind of self respecting nocturnal being cannot see in the dark, one way or another?

  4. #94

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    The Duraloops I took off tonight were at 1.49v 868mAh/1.49v 861mAh/1.48v 833mAh so I will try these in the E01 with ther 833mAh and the 861 and 868 in the 2 Maratacs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darvis View Post
    Beacon,

    At 4:30 pm ET, I had 4 refreshed eneloops reading 1.46 volts off the charger @ 800+ mah each

    I fired up the following:

    Fenix E01
    Peak Eiger #1 Luxeon
    Peak Eiger #1 XP-G
    Ti Preon on low
    Quark on moonlight for comparison

    I'm doing this to see if I at least get similar results on the E01 and Preon as you did with the same batteries. The Peaks are for kicks, but it will be interesting to see how the Luxeon does vs. the Cree.

    Will keep you posted

  5. #95

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    I guess the alkie vs NiMH is the area I overlooked. I didn't realize alkaline AAAs were rated at 1200mAh. That would explain the extra runtimes then. I thought it was odd though as I thought NiMH had longer runtimes in general at least for AA lights, but maybe that applies to high modes which would make sense as high modes are high drain and that is where NiMh batteries should excell.

    I think I will let the Eigers both go until they die so I can get an idea of total runtime before failure. Very impressed that they are the runtime leaders so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by defloyd77 View Post
    This is exactly right. The E01, which you got 11 hours from sounds textbook for NiMH, if you want those insane moon mode runtimes, you have to do alkaline, NiMH and lithiums will give you better sun mode, but then drop like a brick. The simple sad fact is, your results reflect exactly what I thought was going to happen and why I don't give lights like the iTP much credit when they boast these ludicrous "50 hour" runtimes. I don't at all feel your tests were flawed due to the Duraloops, between your 2 tests, the numbers look consistent, I don't think you did anything wrong here.

    I think the lessons to be learned, don't believe in stated runtimes, simplicity reigns supreme (the simple 1 mode unregulated Eigers) and although they suck in high drain applications, alkalines are going to give you really huge runtime numbers in lights such as these.

    Thanks for doing these tests and also for your part in bringing the #0 and Sub Zero into the flashaholic world.

    Now, where's that Mortal Kombat guy? "Sub Zero wins. Flawless victory."

  6. #96

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by defloyd77 View Post
    simplicity reigns supreme (the simple 1 mode unregulated Eigers)
    One particularly important reason for this is that a PWM regulation microcontroller sucks anywhere from 6-10mA most of the time (that's with an ideal picoPower AVR, which are essentially the most efficient at 8mhz. If they're using a different micro at high speeds, it could suck even more.). As I said, depending on the design it could suck even more than that. That means that it's sucking as much as the LED, maybe more, on low mode. With the peak, you don't have to worry about that as it's only 1 mode, linear regulated (or not regulated at all?).

  7. #97

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    This give me reason to want an Ultra Low dedicated light even further. One of the reasons I have several E01s were based on the fact it gives 11 sun and 10 moon mode hours. I guess I recharge batteries more frequently to never get to moon mode in that light, so I never noticed until this test it just dies on NiMH before it ever gets to moon mode (that's disappointing in itself). I like the Eigers and how they slowly dim, which is what I was expecting from the E01.

    Quote Originally Posted by defloyd77 View Post
    The E01, which you got 11 hours from sounds textbook for NiMH, if you want those insane moon mode runtimes, you have to do alkaline, NiMH and lithiums will give you better sun mode, but then drop like a brick.

  8. #98
    Flashaholic Sir Lightalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Ya, the LF2XT seems off as Im pretty sure that someone tested the preceding LF2x and got 2 weeks or something crazy like that. But it was probably with alkies. At theses low drive currents, they would prevail.

    Also the FUI of the LF2XT defaults at 1% low not .2%. It looked like minimum from the pics though so its probably good.

    PS, If you haven't changed it yet low voltage cutoff on the LF2XT is 4C+H.
    Last edited by Sir Lightalot; 08-16-2010 at 07:12 PM.

  9. #99

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    This has been extremely educational. I had never really considered the different discharge curves between the types of batteries before, as well, and had always thought I wanted heavily regulated lights-but that's not the case anymore.

    It's not to say I'll stop using NIMH, no way! It's just that I'll make sure to have a healthy supply of lithium primaries on hand for the times when I may need light for a loooonnng time without any surprises. I'll keep some alkaleaks around as well since these are not high drain lights...

    This also endears my peaks to me even more... I now have a valiant concepts Arc AA conversion body enroute for really insane runtimes and I'm glad to have scored some of the last Matterhorns from RMSK! I'll be ordering me a pair of those Eiger/Beacon specials as well (subzero!!!)

    Anyhow, 5 hours into my runtime test and all 4 lights are holding steady. The 2 peaks are at simlilar brightness levels to each other and both the E01 and Preon are looking good. Not much has changed at this point.

    One last thing to mention, not one of the lights is even the slightest bit warm to the touch, even after 5 hours of continuous on....
    Last edited by Darvis; 08-16-2010 at 07:35 PM.

  10. #100

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    yeah the only one out of the lights that got incredibly hot was the Ray S20, but that thing is putting out like 180 lumens or something crazy from a single AAA. I told them if they made that light with a moon mode instead of 180 lumens I'd buy it, or at least a 2 mode moon/low or medium

  11. #101

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Lightalot View Post
    Ya, the LF2XT seems off as Im pretty sure that someone tested the preceding LF2x and got 2 weeks or something crazy like that. But it was probably with alkies. At theses low drive currents, they would prevail.

    Also the FUI of the LF2XT defaults at 1% low not .2%. It looked like minimum from the pics though so its probably good.

    PS, If you haven't changed it yet low voltage cutoff on the LF2XT is 4C+H.
    perhap I am remembering incorrectly as I thought minimum on the LF2XT was .2% or perhaps I am thinking of reading someone that said it may be equivalent to .2 lumens?

  12. #102

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Well, I'm 8 hours into my run at this point and all 4 lights are still where they were at the onset (I've been comparing visually and through side by side photos as well) I really don't expect much action until they start to hit the 10-13 hour mark anyway.

    Going to call it a night for now, we'll see what morning brings.

  13. #103

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Darvis, great and here's hoping they're still going in the morning.

  14. #104

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    So here's what I have:

    11 hours in:

    The Preon has shut down and the battery is at 1.15v (I find this a bit high voltage-wise, but it's definitely off at the 11 hour mark as was yours)

    The E01 is definitely in moon mode

    The Eiger #1 XP-G is still at full brightness

    The Eiger Luxeon has dimmed but is noticably still brighter than the E01




    So, I head back to bed and now it's 15 hours in:

    The E01 has shut down. My guess is that it did not go much longer than 12 hours tops like yours, the battery measures .87v

    Both Eigers are still going

    The Luxeon has dimmed slightly since the 11 hour mark

    The XP-G is now at half brightness and is noticably brighter than the Luxeon.

    I'll let these two guys keep going.
    Last edited by Darvis; 08-17-2010 at 05:56 AM.

  15. #105

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Ok so this is confirmed then the difference is that Fenix did use specs from alkies to to quote runtimes. I guess I learned something out of this and I guess I'm disappointed in NiMH batteries low performance compared to alkies.

  16. #106

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darvis View Post
    So here's what I have:

    11 hours in:

    The Preon has shut down and the battery is at 1.15v (I find this a bit high voltage-wise, but it's definitely off at the 11 hour mark as was yours)

    The E01 is definitely in moon mode

    The Eiger #1 XP-G is still at full brightness

    The Eiger Luxeon has dimmed but is noticably still brighter than the E01




    So, I head back to bed and now it's 15 hours in:

    The E01 has shut down. My guess is that it did not go much longer than 12 hours tops like yours, the battery measures .87v

    Both Eigers are still going

    The Luxeon has dimmed slightly since the 11 hour mark

    The XP-G is now at half brightness and is noticably brighter than the Luxeon.

    I'll let these two guys keep going.
    Isn't the Preon rated for 23 hours on low? 11 hours is a huge difference.

    It's good to see the Eigers performing so well. They are becoming my new favorite.

  17. #107

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Ok since the Connexion and Connexion 2 were one of the first multi-mode lights I purchased, their quoted specs were burned into my head:


    Output/Runtime(100% to 50%):
    (Alkaline): 100 lumens/35 minutes, 25 lumens/7+ hours, 4 lumens/71+ hours.
    (Energizer E2 Lithium): 100 lumens/94 minutes, 25 lumens/8 hours, 4 lumens/80 hours.
    (NiMh 2700mah): 100 lumens/110 minutes, 25 lumens/7 hours, 4 lumens/70 hours.
    (Li-Ion 14500): 120 lumens/95 minutes, 28 lumens/7+ hours, 6 lumens/40+ hours

    I know the alkie shows 1 more hour +, but I guess when I was a newbie I saw those figures as being roughly the same output, so I always thought with the ever increasing higher capacity NiMH cells, they were superior in capacity to regular alkies. Would this be a case where Lumapower is rating the 71 hours + fairly conservatively and not including say 20-30 more hours on moon mode?

  18. #108

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beacon of Light View Post
    Isn't the Preon rated for 23 hours on low? 11 hours is a huge difference.

    It's good to see the Eigers performing so well. They are becoming my new favorite.
    It appears that all of the long ratings are alkaline based... either long declining, or run in regulation then long moon mode.

    The moral to me is that if you're running nimh's in your low level EDC, do your own tests as the runtimes will not match the advertised specs!

    The Eigers appear to be regulated somewhat, not sure if it's true regulation, or just the flatter dischare curve of the eneloops, but they definitely have a nice smooth run to them!

  19. #109

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    yes it is a flatter curve. I prefer this to straight regulation and then DEAD, which is what I don't care about with Zebralights since I use those the most often.

  20. #110

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    I am now 17.5 hours into the run.

    The Luxeon Eiger is now dimmer than the the Quark in moon mode, but not by much

    The XP-G is just slightly brighter than the Quark in moon mode. The greater efficiency of the XP-G is now apparent to me at the bitter end of this run test

    Both would still be of value in any pitch black environment

    I'm going to let them go to off and measure voltage frome there. My guess is that they'll get to about 19-20 hours total run with the eneloops

    I am VERY impressed with the Eigers, primarily because I feel these lights will give one some very useful runtime with no surprises... on any chemistry!

    The E01 definitely had some moon mode runtime after it dropped out of regulation, but not much before it shut down. Overall, a very impressive run from the E01, though. I will always have a few of these on tap.

    The preon appears to have simply shut off once it hit whatever limit with the nimh. I'm curious if alkalines would allow it to run and then decline gracefully? Might have to try this next.

    Beacon, I think with these results, we can confirm your tests were a valid representation of performance on NIMH's and it looks like your duraloops are not faulty at all. This has been a real eye opener for me, thanks again for you efforts!!! I can't wait to see what the next test batch shows.

    Edit: I just dropped a fresh alki into my preon for kicks, (10am ET) I won't give the blow by blow, but will report back on whether it surpasses the 11 hour mark. I think Scout24 may have already tested this, I'm just curious to see if mine goes the distance.
    Last edited by Darvis; 08-17-2010 at 08:33 AM.

  21. #111
    Flashaholic Zendude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Ok, I've decided to jump in with you guys.

    The difference is I'm using Kirkland Signature AAA Alkies dated March 2014.

    The contenders:

    Fenix E01
    Quark MiNi AA
    ZL H50b
    ZL H501

    At the 14hr mark all lights are still running. The E01 is going into moon mode.

    As an aside, IIRC there were two different flavors of the E01. It had to do with the emitter output. I don't recall if this affected runtime but I know mine has a lower output than the two I got for my girls.

    UPDATE:

    By the standards set by BOL the E01 light output fell below the moon mode of a Quark AA @ ~15hrs and the Quark mini was starting to dim.

    At 15.5hrs the mini matched the E01.

    At 16.25hrs the mini was BARELY on so I stopped it. The battery was at .61V.

    ZL lights still going strong.

    UPDATE#2:

    At 24hrs the E01 is still putting out some useful light(easily enough to read a map). I checked the battery: 358mV! Voltage was rebounding as I measured it. I put it back in and it fired right up.

    ZL lights are still going strong.


    UPDATE#3:

    ZL H50b: At ~27hrs I found it doing a slow irregular strobe. It looked like SOS spaced far apart. I checked the battery and it showed 1.07V, called it done.

    ZL H501: I checked at 34hrs and it was still good. At 36hrs it was dead. Battery was at 1.08V.

    E01: Still kickin in moon mode at 42.5hrs! Voltage is holding steady at .37V
    Last edited by Zendude; 09-08-2010 at 04:51 PM. Reason: update

  22. #112
    Flashaholic* scout24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Darvis, Yes I did, but I'm curious as to what brand of cell you are using. I have followed this enthusiastically, I just do not have any smaller rechargable cells. Only 123's. I may have to remedy that, I like some of these times... I'm going to call for a Sub Zero and try my favorite coppertops in there... Thank you guys for all the work on this!

  23. #113

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    So here's my final update @ 23 hours with the 2 Eigers left standing.

    Both are clearly below the Quark on moon mode at this point.

    The Eiger #1 Luxeon is what I would call at tritium level. You can clearly see the glow in dark room and maybe get some super dim light in a totally dark environment, maybe even read a map, but it would be a stretch. I think this thing would glow for a few more hours, but I'm counting it out @ 21 hours to be honest. The last two hours were really just interesting to watch.

    The Eiger #1 XP-G... Downright impressive. I'd say it's about 0.01 lumens at this point. I took into a completely dark room, and I could make out rough detail. Would this thing perform in any type of ambient light? No way, but I'd say it went an honest 22.5 hours on the eneloop.

    Both eneloops were at exactly .97 volts when I pulled them at the 23 hour mark!!! These things are literally just sipping from those AAA's, the sub zero must be a battery camel!!! Can you imagine what these things will do with an arc adapter and a AA? Man....

    Scout, I've got an energizer AAA alkaline in the Preon at the moment Update: See post #117 for results

    Here's my summary (all lights tested with fresh AAA eneloops)

    Fenix E01 <12 hours @ .87v final (light off)
    Ti Single AAA Preon <11 hours @ 1.15v final (light off)
    Eiger #1 Luxeon <21 hours @ .97v final (light dim)
    Eiger #1 XP-G <23 hours @ .97v final (light dim)

    Both Eigers were at a lower output level than the Quark (18hrs Luxeon) & (20hrs XP-G) based on the original outlines for the test. If the quark on moon happens to be the lowest low that you can live with, then the #1 Eigers will only get you this far with an eneloop.
    Last edited by Darvis; 08-17-2010 at 08:27 PM.

  24. #114
    Flashaholic Sir Lightalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beacon of Light View Post
    perhap I am remembering incorrectly as I thought minimum on the LF2XT was .2% or perhaps I am thinking of reading someone that said it may be equivalent to .2 lumens?
    The lowest it can go is indeed .2% but its not set to it by default in the FUI.
    If you were using the CUI though, then you're on minimum for sure.

  25. #115

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Lightalot View Post
    The lowest it can go is indeed .2% but its not set to it by default in the FUI.
    If you were using the CUI though, then you're on minimum for sure.
    I was in CUI and I did have it programmed for minimum. Don't recall if I had the low voltage cut off engaged or not I don't remember changing that.

  26. #116
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darvis View Post
    he Eigers appear to be regulated somewhat, not sure if it's true regulation, or just the flatter dischare curve of the eneloops, but they definitely have a nice smooth run to them!
    The Eigers are actually unregulated, what you're seeing is behavior in NiMH cells. That's truly the secret behind the long runtime of these Eigers and other runtime greats such as the Gerber Infinity Ultra, 1 mode, no regulation, nothing more than what's needed to boost voltage. This is why lights like the Preon failed, the complexity of their circuits hinders their performance with all of those modes, PWM etc.

    I'd like to go somewhat off topic and mention a thread on the Marketplace, the "4Sevens E01 style light" thread, you will notice how much I emphasize the importance of such a light being only one mode, I really hope now it's clear as to why.
    What kind of self respecting nocturnal being cannot see in the dark, one way or another?

  27. #117

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by defloyd77 View Post
    The Eigers are actually unregulated, what you're seeing is behavior in NiMH cells. That's truly the secret behind the long runtime of these Eigers and other runtime greats such as the Gerber Infinity Ultra, 1 mode, no regulation, nothing more than what's needed to boost voltage. This is why lights like the Preon failed, the complexity of their circuits hinders their performance with all of those modes, PWM etc.

    I'd like to go somewhat off topic and mention a thread on the Marketplace, the "4Sevens E01 style light" thread, you will notice how much I emphasize the importance of such a light being only one mode, I really hope now it's clear as to why.
    defloyd, thanks for confirming that and I'm going to have a look at that thread. I can sincerely say that I'm now a true convert/believer in single mode simple!!!

    On that note, at exactly 11 hours, the Preon shut down. It was feeding on an energizer alkaline AAA... And that folks, is all she wrote.

  28. #118

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    hrm now that you guys have tested the AAA lights...and found the big difference in NiMH vs Alkies I wonder if that holds true for the AA lights like Quark AA and it's runtime of 10 days stated in moon mode. (someone had to have tested this before right?)

  29. #119

    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by wantsusa View Post
    hrm now that you guys have tested the AAA lights...and found the big difference in NiMH vs Alkies I wonder if that holds true for the AA lights like Quark AA and it's runtime of 10 days stated in moon mode. (someone had to have tested this before right?)
    With two AAs, it claims 30 days moonlight mode.

    Has this been tested?

  30. #120
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    Default Re: Epic AAA Run-time test (low level only!)

    Quote Originally Posted by wyager View Post
    With two AAs, it claims 30 days moonlight mode.

    Has this been tested?
    I'd also love to see this as I have been eye'n this for my first XP-G light as the claims are out right crazy... Also like the modes and the form factor as the tactical looks awesome. Also would like to see the one of the Icon lights in this test, maybe the Icon Rogue 1AA as Paul Kim has definitely done a great job on design but would like to know the claims. Hell I'll do and post it, just to see as a comparison to the field.

    Change as I hope you guys don't mind me adding to this.

    I am going to be testing three lights:

    Here's is the beam shots @ the start... The Icon Rogue 1AA(Left) Icon Solo 2AAA(Middle) Fenix E01 1AAA(Right)


    Test with 1aa Icon rogue 1AA - Semi fresh (charged approximately 20days ago) Tenergy 1AA R2U LSD 2300mah battery.
    Running on low mode (battery measured 1.30V before test started)

    Test started @ 8:21Pm on 08/17/2010

    Test Ended @ ??:?? on 08/??/2010



    Test with Icon Solo 2AAA - Semi fresh (charged approximately 20days ago) Tenergy 2AAA R2U LSD 1000mah batteries
    Running on low mode (batteries measured 1.31V before test started)

    Test started @ 8:21PM on 08/21/2010

    Test Ended @ ??:?? on 08/??/2010


    Test with Fenix E01 1AAA - Semi fresh (charged approximately 20days ago) Tenergy 1AAA R2U LSD 1000mah battery.
    Running on single mode (battery measured 1.31V before test started)

    Test started @ 8:21PM on 08/21/2010

    Test Ended @ ??:?? on 08/??/2010

    Thanks for all the great work guys as this is really helpful and educational.
    Last edited by ama230; 08-17-2010 at 09:45 PM.
    "When you do something right, no one remembers. When you do something wrong, no one forgets."
    Edison was right with dc all along...

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