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Thread: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

  1. #1
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    Default Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Carried on from the Incandescent section topic HERE. Since it has turned into a sales/feeler, the mods wanted me to put it here.

    Picking up where we left off....

    Pulled the silicon material for inspection, looks good no issues.


    Then this....


    Last edited by Mettee; 10-05-2010 at 08:24 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    High power bulbs
    1185 SMO
    1185 STK
    1909 SMO
    1909 STK






    Low power bulbs
    EO-M3T SMO
    EO-M3T STK
    MN21 SMO
    MN21 STK
    MN20 SMO
    MN20 STK


    1185 SMO only
    Last edited by Mettee; 03-16-2011 at 12:40 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Very nice SMO looking reflector. I would like to see confirmation (as there appeared to be some question in the other thread) that the reflector can handle the heat of both the 1185 and 1909 bulbs.

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Working on it now I have one battery charge through it on an 1185. Batteries are 3x17650 if you are curious. I took it out, pointed it, very nice bright warm tunnel of light. Not dark enough for a throw test.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    At least based on Lux Luthor's data, the 5761 and 1909 look to be much hotter running bulbs than the 1185.

    I would also test for beam quality characteristics using bulbs with a variety of filament dimensions -- such as "point source" filaments like the N1 and N2, and "bar" filaments like the MN16, MN60, and MN61. The various W-A lamps like the 1111, 1331, and 1185 are sort of intermediate. May as well also include the MN20 and MN21, since those are sort of the standard bearers for the SF M6. Most of the above lamps can be used with the PhD-M6, so they may have a reasonable probability of actual use in an M6.

    Other candidate test bulbs could include the Hikari 5607, and some of the various Lumens Factory lamps.

    If you don't have a PhD-M6, that would remove some of the above bulbs that aren't well matched for direct drive.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* Dioni's Avatar
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    Popcorn Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Indeed, very nice SMO!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    I dont have all those bulbs so some of them will not be tested, sorry.

    Plan is for 1909, 1185, 1111, stock SF bulbs like MN16 MN60 MN61 , and random Lumens factory. If you want a bulb tested feel free to send it my way, all I am offering is to test it with this reflector. Individuals should be able to use the info from those bulbs to arrive at a very good hypothesis on performance of any other different bulbs.

    What is the average O.D. of the Phillips 5761 if you can measure a bulb? I need an average of at least 3 bulbs I would say.

    The vertex of the reflector is going to be a specific size to take advantage of the most commonly used bulbs in the M6. So, what that means is that some bulbs will possibly not work(5761). I personally would never use that bulb over an 1185 so it really doesn't matter much to me. I honestly was not even thinking about it. What bulb/s(pick two and be realistic) will the majority of you be using on a regular basis? The M6 shootout shows the 1185 as the winner, and I agree with that, but those seeking different run times may want something else.

    To end all these heat issues, I plan to hit one of these with a Osram 64657 and 1909 to test for heat. I am pretty sure those are two of the hottest bulbs I could choose, but if not I am sure I will be corrected. I will let you know what happens, I figure that should end all the concerns.

    For some performance feedback from last night...In the rain I did a shot at a location I normally test at. I have been shining the M6 there once a night to burn that performance into my brain. After changing out to this new set up the light at the longest throw distance looks to be a good percentage brighter than the stock reflector. Just as I thought it would from my past experience. The beam is not overly tight and really gathers the light well to illuminate a large area better at that given longest distance. I am sorry I dont have a tape measure so I dont know how far, roughly 150-180 yards. And yes it does out throw the stock reflector. It really keeps it a usable light even with the SMO. Done with 1185 and 3x17650 with softstart.

    Give me some time and I will start throwing up beam shots. Weather permitting.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    The bulbs you have on-hand look reasonably comprehensive, although I think you should also test an MN20 and MN21 since those are the factory lamps that come with the M6.

    The Osram 64657 is over 1/2" diam. Unless you plan on making your reflector with a larger than stock opening, the big Osram super bulbs will not fit.

    All (6 or 7?) of my 5761 lamps fit through my KT4 -- thus glass diam is smaller than the stock opening for a KT4 reflector. But that doesn't seem to be 100% -- apparently 5761s have enough glass envelope size variation that some are too big to fit in a KT4. I am similarly lucky with my supply of Osram 64250 lamps (a less expensive substitute for the WA1111). They all fit.

    If you don't have a PhD-M6, then DDing bulbs like the MN60 and MN61 might not work out too well when using an M6 host. They'll be fine in an M4 running 123A primaries. Similar issue with the MN16. You'd probably need an M3 host for direct drive testing.

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    I'll likely test the 20/21, just didn't type it.

    64657 will be tested in a big reflector with the same coating. 1909 in this M6 reflector. Since that is likely the hottest that will be used thats what I will base things off of.

    Again, an average O.D. of the phillips 5761 will be needed. Or its out, I dont have them on hand. Maybe someone with bulbs and dial calipers can check this? Its just not worth it in my opinion to not take full advantage of the WA bulbs and stock bulbs with an optimised vertex opening dimension.

    I do not have a PHD M6 set up, too rich for my blood I have a M3 but chances are I will fall back on another bulb for testing as they will all likely perform the same, just at different brightness levels.

    More testing tonight on a long walk, majority of time on high. Should be the third or fourth battery cycle with the 1185. No issues.

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    Flashaholic alantch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    mettee, very very nice SMO reflector! As far as bulbs go, my favorite 2 bulbs are the HO-M6R and WA1185. Looking forward to your further test results and beam shots.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    The 5761's glass envelope has a slightly oval profile. The widths (in a direction parallel to a line that connects the two bi-pin legs) and depths (in a direction perpendicular to a line connecting the two bi-pin legs) are:

    Code:
    Bulb  Width   Depth
    1      0.354"  0.342"
    2      0.354"  0.341"
    3      0.356"  0.344"
    4      0.355"  0.343"
    5      0.355"  0.345"

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Quote Originally Posted by alantch View Post
    mettee, very very nice SMO reflector! As far as bulbs go, my favorite 2 bulbs are the HO-M6R and WA1185. Looking forward to your further test results and beam shots.
    Noted, and thank you Sir.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    The 5761's glass envelope has a slightly oval profile. The widths (in a direction parallel to a line that connects the two bi-pin legs) and depths (in a direction perpendicular to a line connecting the two bi-pin legs) are:

    Code:
    Bulb  Width   Depth
    1      0.354"  0.342"
    2      0.354"  0.341"
    3      0.356"  0.344"
    4      0.355"  0.343"
    5      0.355"  0.345"

    Hummmm, let me think about this bulb. It would require some compromise with what I want to have happen. It might be out, sorry to say. Its just not that popular of a bulb as far as I am concerned and its not worth sacrificing the performance of the stock and more popular bulbs.
    Last edited by Mettee; 10-07-2010 at 05:34 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    No big deal. The 5761 draws a lot of current and runs hot, so IMO it isn't as desirable of a bulb as some other choices such as the various Welch-Allyn bulbs. You have the heat test covered with the Osram 64657 and the 1909 anyway. Also, the 5761's voltage range before instaflashing is limited, so running on 2xIMR18650 could be bad. I'm using it with a PhD-M6, and even then it probably would be better if and when IMR17670s hit the scene.

    If you plan to test the big Osram, does this mean you are considering two (or more) reflector configurations -- a small reflector opening for bulbs like the W-As and the stock SF MN lamps, and a bigger opening for the larger Osrams? Or is it just a test reflector, not meant for the KT4?
    Last edited by Justin Case; 10-08-2010 at 06:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    ...custom vertex sizes will be available special order

    The one I am testing with is for another build I am doing, I showed an image of it in the other thread. Green head and body....64657, softstart, etc.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Quote Originally Posted by Mettee View Post
    ...custom vertex sizes will be available special order
    Very nice.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    A shot taken from the other night. Its not the best it can be I will admit that. It is taken hand held with a sony TX5.
    Just a quick throw shot at a distance close to 200 yards.

    Control


    Bridge in distance is the target.




    I am waiting for another stock M6 head to do back to back shots of stock vs. SMO. Please bare with me
    Last edited by Mettee; 10-09-2010 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Ok, I just looked on google maps and it says that distance is well over 200 yards...I am not sure I believe it though.



    ETA: That is the correct distance it seems.
    Last edited by Mettee; 10-10-2010 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Going to do some set up work this evening and thought I would enlist the help of you all. I wanted to ask, how would you like to see the beam shots taken? I was going to set up in a park that has little to no night light. So the only light you see will be coming from the M6. And I wanted to be able to illuminate an easily visible object to allow everyone to see the difference in light intensity on that object. The problem I was having with the above "for fun" shots is that there was some "street light" present.

    Tell me if you have any input on what you want to see in the beam shots.

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    To get a good idea of how a light performs, beamshot pics should be clear/sharp and the framing should not move from shot to shot. This is especially helpful if you want to do a rotating GIF image to show the difference in brightness between the different setups. That means sitting the camera on a sturdy tripod, on manual exposure settings, using manual focus and timer tripped to avoid shake/jitter. Different exposure settings should be experimented to get a result that closely matches what your eyes are seeing on site. For me, it does not matter if the area is lit or partly lit, as long as it's not overly bright . I'm sure most of us don't always use our lights in pitch darkness as there will always be some sort of lighting around in this day and age.

    Thanks for doing this for us mettee.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Mettee,

    I agree with Alan that you need to have a locked camera mount and fixed aperture and speed.

    I would refer to DM51's M6 shootout thread as it really is THE definitive thread for both M6 bulb options and great comparative beamshots:http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=230857

    You don't need to spend a lot of money on a mount or anything. IIRC DM51 used his wife cutting board or something like that.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Ok, thanks guys.

    I have already lined up a DSLR camera and a tripod. So that is covered. I was thinking if I can, I will provide some zoom shots as well since some of the pictures I already took its hard for the eye and camera to get a good shot of the farthest throw. I was also hoping to hit an object so that we could all see the amount of light that hits the object. Beam shots can be misleading, we all know that.

    More than likely I will do a few shots at a closer object that shows the increase in hot spot as well, that should give some feedback. Something at say 100 yards that is easily lit by both reflectors, but shows the difference in the two.

    I will be working on this over the next two days and nights, thank god for days off so I can work

    And you are welcome, I am having fun...this should be pretty cool. We have some improvements that will make it into production units. They will increase performance over this reflector I am testing. So likely you will not be disappointed.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Ok, the beam shots went well everyone. I was able to test for heat with the 1909 and it did very well. Not one problem to speak of, and performance was great with all bulbs. You can really see the beam pattern in the pictures. Once I upload the images today after work I will post them to the 2nd reply in the thread, so look for that later.

    I will more than likely do some more long distance throw shots this weekend just to give definitive throw numbers(distance).

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Sorry guys none of the shots turned out I have to re shoot them all. I am not a happy camper right now.

    Anyone have any good settings to suggest for a Canon EOS 40D.....

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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Mettee, what was wrong with the shots? If you could show a few shots here for us to see what possibly went wrong, then we might be able to suggest methods and possible settings.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Here are are 5 shots. 1 control, a back to back 1185 stock vs SMO, and another back to back 1909 stock vs SMO.
    They are very blurry and noisy, they still show the performance, they are just not what I want to post.They looked
    awesome on the camera screan. I used TV mode, which is to my knowledge "shutter priority mode". I am a perfectionist
    so I wont settle on these. I will eventually redo them all, and probably at another location, I needed another 100 yards
    distance to really show what I wanted to. And also I want to take more time to focus the bulbs and center the hot spot.
    Dont laugh at my pictures please it was my first time with this camera.

    This is 200 confirmed yards. Another CPF member attended and helped out, if he wants to chime in at all he can

    Control


    SMO with 1185 run off 3x17650


    Stock with 1185 run off 3x17650


    SMO with 1909 run off 6 IMR in MB20


    Stock with 1909 run off 6 IMR in MB20


    ETA: Park, the large green tree that is closest is at 100 yards. The house and huge tree in back are at 200 yards.
    Last edited by Mettee; 10-16-2010 at 10:04 AM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    ouch the smo with 1909 picture almost looks like medium output setting compared to the stock 1909

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Its all in the beam, look at the hot spot, that hot spot would have gone another 100 yards. Next shots I take will show that better. The stock looks awesome, but all that light is right there in front of you.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Having done LOTS of these night pictures in 6 years, 3 tips, since all of those are out of focus due to the auto-focus feature:

    - you probably did already, but make sure you use a tripod on the camera

    - set focus to manual, and set the focus ring at infinity.

    - use the 2 (or 3) second timer. That way, when you press the shutter to take the picture, even if you move the camera, the 2-3 second delay will steady the camera/tripod to give you a nicer "steady" setup.

    Will
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Surefire M6 SMO/LOP reflector to increase THROW

    Thanks Will. I did have it set to manual, but I have no idea how to set focus to infinity. I had it on a tripod, but like you said I was clicking the shutter button. I could not find the timer function

    I did try and line the camera up days before to practice, that just didnt happen. I have another go at it.

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