Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine

I bought an EcoSmart Cree CR6 tonight from Home Depot on the way home from work. They only had one on the shelf.



Overall, I was pretty impressed when compared against my Feit 23W CFLs from Costco. Amount of light output is very close, but the color temperature is a bit warmer (the maroon dishtowel in the pics appeared a deeper red under the Cree).



I debated for hours whether to tear into it. There are already pictures out there of the driver end of the light disassembled, but I can't find any pictures of the business end.



I was hesitant to take the lens off, as melted tabs hold it on from the backside, making removal pretty difficult and possibly irreversible. My dad agreed to split the cost with me if the surgery was not reversible, so I decided to go for it.



To get the tabs off, I heated up a utility knife blade held with vice grips until it was orange. I then used the blade to cut/melt the tabs off one at a time. It actually worked really well, and I think I'll be able to re-attach the plastic pieces in a similar fashion (otherwise I'll use epoxy).



Enough talk, on to the pics. There was an interesting surprise, as the LEDs are not what people have reported. See for yourself:





You see here that the lens is crystal clear, but there is a sheet of some kind of diffuser material behind it. The cone is just made of white paper, and sits inside the housing.





Drum roll please...





Those look a lot like Cree XP-G's to me... Let's have a closer look:





Hard to see it in this picture, but there is a square sheet of something between the LED MPCB and the Al light fixture. It feels kind of slippery like it might be graphite or someting similar. Also note that the area where the MPCB has been smoothed out somehow and isn't nearly as rough as the surrounding area. I'm guessing it was pressed, based on the marks on the backside.





No thermal paste or anything between the housing and the intermediate cast Al plate:





Unfortunately, as you can see here, one of the three red LEDs is DOA...





Well there you have it. No single Cree MP-L as some thought. I'm surprised to see only 5 white XP-G's though. I'd expect more needed for 575 Lumens out the front. It really does tick me off that one of the red LEDs is dead!!! That doesn't give me any warm-fuzzies about QC of this USA-made light. :shakehead



Finally, I measured 120mA draw @ 120.7VAC with my Kill-A-Watt. It says 12Watts and 14Volt-Amps (power factor was about .85 iirc). The packaging does say 10.5 Watts, however a label on the light says 12 Watts, so not sure what the deal is there. Maybe newer CR6's have an MP-L and ARE only 10.5 Watts? My driver PCBs all had 2010 dates on them, fwiw. I don't know...



More of you need to dig into your lights to find out!



:candle:

Dang! Too bad all this info got lost! I can only imagine all of the useful information that is gone for good. Pretty frustrating. Anyway, I found a FULL cache of this thread and will begin rebuilding it right now.

edit: Looks like the last two posts are gone for good. I know there was a post on Feb 21. :shakehead

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by kaichu dento on 11-09-2010 02:45 AM GMT

Thanks for taking it apart for us and telling about it - now can we get some different output comparison shots between CFL's and incans too?

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by foxtrot824 on 11-09-2010 07:41 AM GMT

Bummer indeed about the DOA red emitter. Thanks for cracking open the fixture.

I have to say (and it could just be the way it looks in the picture) I think those look like XP-Es and not XP-Gs. The die area just looks a little smaller than most of the XP-Gs I remember seeing. I have a attached a picture of an XP-E (R3) build I did, the emitters seem to have the same 3 dots on 3 sides of the die.



VS

This XP-G triple from another project


Makes me wonder if it is using XP-Es how much brighter could it be with XP-Gs?

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by lostsoul01 on 11-09-2010 11:00 AM GMT

Here's a thought, maybe that RED led isn't dead, but disabled? I know that's a long shot, and wasteful!

That picture is so familiar... then I realized I was watching a video with that LED design just yesterday, the CREE LMR4 light module.

Three "saturated red" and five "unsaturated yellow" leds.

The CREE LMR4 is rated 12W (not 10.5W) and 700 Lumens.

Here is a link to a video "inside the LMR4."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXJ7f9r6G_I

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by bshanahan14rulz on 11-09-2010 11:18 AM GMT

if they disabled it, it would have to have been by subtracting the available voltage to the string, since that red LED is still in series with all the others. Or perhaps it wasn't quite reflowed all the way.

Written by LEDmodMan on 11-09-2010 12:15 PM GMT

I suppose the LEDs could be XP-E's. They looked bigger than that to me, but I could be wrong.

The red LED is definitely not disabled, as it appears to be wired in series with the other two. I'm guessing it didn't reflow correctly. I'm thinking I'll pull out the power supply tonight and see if it lights up with voltage applied directly. If it does, I'll probably try desoldering the LED board and putting it onto my stove burner (cast iron flat plate type) to reflow it and see if that fixes it.

Interesting that the LMR4 has what appears to be an identical light engine, yet claims 700 lumens.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by lostsoul01 on 11-09-2010 06:45 PM GMT

LEDmodMan said:

Finally, I measured 120mA draw @ 120.7VAC with my Kill-A-Watt. It says 12Watts and 14Volt-Amps (power factor was about .85 iirc). The packaging does say 10.5 Watts, however a label on the light says 12 Watts, so not sure what the deal is there. Maybe newer CR6's have an MP-L and ARE only 10.5 Watts? My driver PCBs all had 2010 dates on them, fwiw. I don't know...

Click to expand...

Mine has different measurements. .09A at 117.8VAC, 8W and 11VA with a PF of .73 . I don't remember enough about AC to really translate that into anything useful though. Mine has different measurements. .09A at 117.8VAC, 8W and 11VA with a PF of .73 . I don't remember enough about AC to really translate that into anything useful though.

My other 9W ecosmart bulb also measures 6W, but that seems in line with the break-down article about it.

If there is a different variety, I am sure I have the older one, I ordered one the day it was on Home Depot's web site.

Regarding the question about the dead LED... if it was dead, wouldn't it fail open and the entire string be dead, if they are all in series as they appear to be?

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by Zlynx on 11-09-2010 07:17 PM GMT

Thanks for being brave enough to tear it apart! I guess I should be taking a heat reading just below the cast aluminum plate instead of the plate itself. My bulb was running maybe 9 watts, less than I expected. I could not see anything through the diffuser, not even in bright sunlight.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 11-10-2010 10:26 AM GMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tjQ...eature=related

Hah! There is a light control in the LR6... nothing in the CR6 though. I would love a 3500K CR6... and I may have to play around with them to see if I can't get some more power out.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by bobrez on 11-10-2010 10:55 AM GMT

LEDmodMan said:

I suppose the LEDs could be XP-E's. They looked bigger than that to me, but I could be wrong.

The red LED is definitely not disabled, as it appears to be wired in series with the other two. I'm guessing it didn't reflow correctly. I'm thinking I'll pull out the power supply tonight and see if it lights up with voltage applied directly. If it does, I'll probably try desoldering the LED board and putting it onto my stove burner (cast iron flat plate type) to reflow it and see if that fixes it.

Interesting that the LMR4 has what appears to be an identical light engine, yet claims 700 lumens.

Click to expand...

Very nice lighting, I found this about their electronics. WOW me thinks the 1 red is not required atm, Cool stuff

One of the big things is that all of Cree's products have a color temperature sensor in the unit to continually measure the output and adjust the lamp according if something should change. This is great if you install LR6s in your kitchen now and in a few years add some to your living room. With this technology, the living room lights will be the exact same color temperature as your kitchen lights- since over the years the color might shift a bit.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by Slickseth on 11-10-2010 11:14 AM GMT

Looks like five xp-e's in the first post, not xp-g's.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 11-10-2010 07:08 PM GMT

Slickseth said:

Looks like five xp-e's in the first post, not xp-g's.

Click to expand...

I agree:



This is from the DR1000 unit I have. Comparing the edge to edge die to the CR6 it appears the CR6 has XREs.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by foxtrot824 on 11-10-2010 07:19 PM GMT

purduephotog said:

I agree:

This is from the DR1000 unit I have. Comparing the edge to edge die to the CR6 it appears the CR6 has XREs.

Click to expand...

Did you mean XP-Es or XR-Es on the CR6? With all of these emitters starting with X I find it very easy to mistype. Did you mean XP-Es or XR-Es on the CR6? With all of these emitters starting with X I find it very easy to mistype.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 11-11-2010 06:18 AM GMT

foxtrot824 said:

Did you mean XP-Es or XR-Es on the CR6? With all of these emitters starting with X I find it very easy to mistype.

Click to expand...

For the For the

LR6-DR1000: XP-G

LR6: ?

CR6: XP-E

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 11-15-2010 05:25 AM GMT

I found another shot of a CR6 teardown-

http://www.edn.com/article/510700-LE...f_lighting.php

It has TWO 'dead' LEDs. Interesting, ehhh? I want to match up the resistors and see what's going on here...

B]Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine[/B]
Written by lostsoul01 on 11-15-2010 07:30 AM GMT

That article on the LM4 says the LEDs aren't always on:

When you turn on the light and gradually turn up the power, the four primary white LEDs and the two primary red LEDs come on somewhat uniformly (Figure 20). As you continue to crank up the power, the secondary white one and then the secondary red one turn on. If you crank it all the way up, the secondary white LED comes fully on and rivals the primary white LEDs in brightness, whereas the secondary red LED never appears to turn on much at all.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 11-16-2010 07:51 AM GMT

lostsoul01 said:

That article on the LM4 says the LEDs aren't always on:

When you turn on the light and gradually turn up the power, the four primary white LEDs and the two primary red LEDs come on somewhat uniformly (Figure 20). As you continue to crank up the power, the secondary white one and then the secondary red one turn on. If you crank it all the way up, the secondary white LED comes fully on and rivals the primary white LEDs in brightness, whereas the secondary red LED never appears to turn on much at all.

Click to expand...

I'm going to disassemble my unit and get some spectra. I think to get 3500K I'll have to go and change out one of the LEDs. I'm going to disassemble my unit and get some spectra. I think to get 3500K I'll have to go and change out one of the LEDs.

If you do some googling you'll see the first LMR4 units appear to use XP-C LEDs... (yes, the smaller die) as compared to the red LEDs.

Written by LEDmodMan on 11-16-2010 03:51 PM GMT

purduephotog said:

I found another shot of a CR6 teardown-

http://www.edn.com/article/510700-LE...f_lighting.php

It has TWO 'dead' LEDs. Interesting, ehhh? I want to match up the resistors and see what's going on here...

Click to expand...

I saw that article previously, but at the time I did my teardown, I did not realize the LED board was the same. I saw that article previously, but at the time I did my teardown, I did not realize the LED board was the same.

lostsoul01 said:

That article on the LM4 says the LEDs aren't always on:

When you turn on the light and gradually turn up the power, the four primary white LEDs and the two primary red LEDs come on somewhat uniformly (Figure 20). As you continue to crank up the power, the secondary white one and then the secondary red one turn on. If you crank it all the way up, the secondary white LED comes fully on and rivals the primary white LEDs in brightness, whereas the secondary red LED never appears to turn on much at all.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I did see that. Quite interesting. I'm going to have to check this out for myself. I did not attempt any dimming with my CR6 unit, but I will try to play with that tonight and see. Since there is not a sensor anywhere on this unit, I'm guessing that the "active" color management on this model (and as it appears, the LM4 as well) is something that is pre-programmed from the factory. Could be based off of input voltage, temperature, and even LED lifetime. Quite interesting if that turns out to be the case! Yeah, I did see that. Quite interesting. I'm going to have to check this out for myself. I did not attempt any dimming with my CR6 unit, but I will try to play with that tonight and see. Since there is not a sensor anywhere on this unit, I'm guessing that the "active" color management on this model (and as it appears, the LM4 as well) is something that is pre-programmed from the factory. Could be based off of input voltage, temperature, and even LED lifetime. Quite interesting if that turns out to be the case!

What I think is a bit underhanded is that given what we've seen here, I think that Cree is charging too much for the CR6's, even for the Home Depot "EcoSmart" model.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by Bicster on 12-30-2010 12:49 PM GMT

LEDmodMan said:

What I think is a bit underhanded is that given what we've seen here, I think that Cree is charging too much for the CR6's, even for the Home Depot "EcoSmart" model.

Click to expand...

They do go on sale for $20-30 each from time to time in the stores. It varies by store. I've never seen them go on sale in my local store, but I look every time I hear about it on the web or on Twitter. As far as I can tell, they have never gone on sale online. They do go on sale for $20-30 each from time to time in the stores. It varies by store. I've never seen them go on sale in my local store, but I look every time I hear about it on the web or on Twitter. As far as I can tell, they have never gone on sale online.

I've been waiting for a better price to try these out. I suspect I won't be able to use them, as my ceilings are 11'6" and I normally use bulbs rated at 900-1200lm. But I wonder how much of that is wasted, and how accurate the ratings are.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 01-01-2011 08:57 AM GMT

Bicster said:

They do go on sale for $20-30 each from time to time in the stores. It varies by store. I've never seen them go on sale in my local store, but I look every time I hear about it on the web or on Twitter. As far as I can tell, they have never gone on sale online.

I've been waiting for a better price to try these out. I suspect I won't be able to use them, as my ceilings are 11'6" and I normally use bulbs rated at 900-1200lm. But I wonder how much of that is wasted, and how accurate the ratings are.

Click to expand...

In MA they're apparently 20$ a unit. I've been trying to get someone to go and check/buy them for me. In MA they're apparently 20$ a unit. I've been trying to get someone to go and check/buy them for me.

B]Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine[/B]
Written by chrsb on 01-17-2011 10:11 AM GMT

Here is the info sheet from Cree-http://www.creelighting.com/Librarie.../CR6.sflb.ashx

I am curious what is driving these from Halo-http://www.cooperlighting.com/common...16&linkID=2469

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by purduephotog on 01-17-2011 01:10 PM GMT

purduephotog said:

In MA they're apparently 20$ a unit. I've been trying to get someone to go and check/buy them for me.

Click to expand...

Scored 10 units. Shipping was a whopping 70$- total cost to me 27.50$/unit. Scored 10 units. Shipping was a whopping 70$- total cost to me 27.50$/unit.

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by andersonEE on 01-27-2011 09:21 AM GMT

Any idea as to what color the White LEDs are (Nuetral, Cool) in the fixtures you've torn apart? Also, I can't find the CRI rating for the CR6 anywhere.

I know the newer LMR2/LMR4 models list their CRI as >80 and >90 for the "EasyWhite" and "TrueWhite" models respectively. Has anyone torn apart one of these new models. I would be interested to know if they are using their new "high cri" emitters or if they are achieving that CRI with a mixture.

The CRI of the Cr6 is 90, as written in the product literature linked a few posts above.

LEDmodMan said:

Re: Pics of HD EcoSmart 65W (Cree Cr6) light engine
Written by andersonEE on 01-27-2011 09:21 AM GMT

Any idea as to what color the White LEDs are (Nuetral, Cool) in the fixtures you've torn apart? Also, I can't find the CRI rating for the CR6 anywhere.

I know the newer LMR2/LMR4 models list their CRI as >80 and >90 for the "EasyWhite" and "TrueWhite" models respectively. Has anyone torn apart one of these new models. I would be interested to know if they are using their new "high cri" emitters or if they are achieving that CRI with a mixture.

Click to expand...

The 'white' LEDs are actually greenish.

My HD is now running these at 25$ and the phillips bulbs at 25$.

What is the voltage for the LED supply from the drivers? I m intend to modify the CR6 to running on dc voltage. Any advise?

Sorry to add to an old post, but I felt like I needed to post some updates to this page in particular to keep some of the history. Some may have noticed that Cree has de-rated the CR6 down to 9.5watts, down from 10.5 when it was originally introduced (some products ended up with 12w stickers on them). I have been slowly replacing my 6" can lights slowly with these CREEs, and have been very happy with them. Just before the official 10.5 to 9.5w switchover was made, I noticed a couple of my newer lights were slightly different. They didn't seem to dim quite as well as the originals. They seem identical on non-dimmed circuits, are whiter when dimmed all the way down as compared to the original bulbs. I've noticed some of the reviews on HD's website has reflected some of these dimmer problems as well. On my most recent purchase (official 9.5w product), I noticed a few other differences as well. The new bulbs can be easily disassembled without having to break the melted plastic clips, which allowed me to take a closer look at the bulbs. What you'll notice is that CREE has also completely revamped the light engine in the newer bulbs.

First the melted clips that held the frame to the lens is now simply a press in clip:



You may also notice that the 3 wings that secure the bulb into the can are also different. They seem to be made out of a different metal material. I prefer the older ones, as these new ones make it very difficult to remove the bulb from the can. The wings do not swing inwards when twisting the bulb counterclockwise as easily as the old design. Here's a closer look:





I also noticed the new lights have a slight bevel on the outer edge, which the older ones were more rounded:


And, now, here's the biggest difference. The light engine. Now these bulbs simply have 5 leds total. 3 of which are Blue Shifted Yellow in color, and 2 are reds:



At one point, I caught one of the red LEDs off, although I never saw it with the naked eye. Either it turned off momentarily while I snapped the picture, or my camera caught it during a quick off cycle - not quite sure:
http://imageshack.us/a/img846/4959/dsc0020md.jpg[/IMG]

Now, the dimming performance. The first picture here was taken of an older model fixture, and the latter with the newer model with the lens removed. Note that the color was identical with the lens on. As you can see, the older model lights seem to be warmer when dimmed:



And finally, here's a shot of the LEDs when dimmed to the fullest. Notice that one of the white LEDs turns off:

First, as a member of the "old guard" here (and even though I do not post like I once did), let me welcome you to CPF! :wave:

Secondly, thank you very much for the update. :twothumbs I have noticed the price of these units dropping lately, and was fairly certain that it meant changes inside the product, and you have confirmed that. I wonder if they're just using higher flux LEDS, or if they made the change to XP-G's from the original XP-E's? I have a few of the older ones in my house, and have been thinking about fully fitting these in my kitchen area lately with the price drop. From the sounds of it, it might not be a great idea to mix and match the old housings with the new in the same room, and that is good to know.

Was at HD today. New Ecosmart CR6 is rated at 625 lumens, instead of 575. Same 9.5 watt power draw, and same price. Also available in 5K temp, in addition to the usual 2700. They had the 5K version stocked over by the can lighting. Of course I just bought 4 more of the 575 lumen lights a couple of weeks ago.