What's the Best TRUE Fog Light?

Hamilton Felix

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I just thought Id post the question, and maybe learn something. It annoys me no end that so many of todays auxiliary lights are just bling (I hate that word). I find myself thinking that the Cibie 175 was arguably (some would argue for the Marchal 950) the best foglight in the world in the 1970s, and I think it still may be. I hope thats not true, but I fear it is. Lately Ive seen little in the way of truly better auxiliary lights, particularly fogs.



So I'm asking: In your opinion, what is the best fog out there today?



(And while I'm at it, how come auxiliary low beams, like the Cibie Booster Beam and the Hella XL have gone the way of the Dodo?)
 

-Virgil-

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It annoys me no end that so many of todays auxiliary lights are just bling

I agree, though I'm even more annoyed by the mountain of aftermarket replacement main headlamps that are just bling.

I find myself thinking that the Cibie 175 was arguably (some would argue for the Marchal 950) the best foglight in the world in the 1970s

It's difficult to pick a single winner; there were a lot of very good halogen fog lamps in the 1960s-'80s, and many of them were from Cibie or Marchal. The performance characteristics of the various models were different -- the Marchal 700 produced an almost impossibly wide beam, but it was not very deep. The OscarPlus produced a narrower but deeper beam. All of them had a relatively large amount of flux within the beam. The trouble with them is their size and bulk; they were well adapted to yesterday's big stamped-sheetmetal bumpers and valence panels. Today's front ends aren't really configured to host a set of big, heavy lamps. Even an adaptive mounting setup like the Carr Light Wing is suitable only for those vehicles with solid metal bumper structures readily accessible at the front license plate mount point. Nevertheless, some of these really good big French halogen fog lamps remain available.

It's a lot more difficult to make a good small fog lamp than it is to make a good big fog lamp. It's not impossible, but it takes a lot more thought, care, effort, and money. There are some very fine fog lamps (as fog lamps go) in the pipeline; the ECE and SAE standards have been updated recently to provide a new category of fog lamp, "F3", with better performance requirements than the (very) old previous specifications. The new F3 fog lamp has recently or will soon become mandatory under ECE regs (fog lamps themselves will not be mandatory, but if they are installed they either must or will soon have to be of the F3 type). One such lamp that comes to mind is Osram's JFL2 Joule LED fog lamp, which is very small but quite good.

The reason for the "as fog lamps go" disclaimer is that even good fog lamps are of little use to most drivers. They're for use in severely bad weather to help the driver see the edges of the road close to the car so he can grope his way along at very low speeds. Fog lamps do not meaningfully improve seeing or safety in other-than-very-foul-weather conditions, though many drivers misuse them in the mistaken belief that they can see better at normal road speeds in dry weather. See this thread and look at the data in post #4.

(And while I'm at it, how come auxiliary low beams, like the Cibie Booster Beam and the Hella XL have gone the way of the Dodo?)

They were never very popular. They're not Federally regulated, never have been, and the SAE standard that specified the design, construction, and performance of auxiliary low beams, J582, has been cancelled and withdrawn. The concept was attractive to drivers stuck with not-very-good headlamps, but iffy under the terms of many state vehicle codes' lighting requirements. And in many (most?) cases, they were just another pair of improperly-installed, improperly-aimed, improperly-used lights on the front of the car (bling again).

So what's the best add-on fog lamp? Probably a carefully-chosen low beam with a sharp cutoff, a broad beam, strict control of upward stray light, high peak intensity, and a low aim angle. I have had good results with the Hella Bifocal or (discontinued) Cibie complex reflector 5¾" H1 low beam and with certain varieties of the Hella 90mm low beam module in "fog lamp" service. There is a case to be made for selective yellow light color.
 
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DIΩDΣ

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Bump.... also curious. I'm looking for something, and no problem with big or heavy since this will be mounted to an F350 bumper.
 

-Virgil-

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If you've got a big truck or van, your options get a lot wider. Go talk to Daniel Stern and/or another good automotive lighting supplier. Be picky whose advice you take; everyone will claim to be an expert.
 

Marcturus

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There are some very fine fog lamps (as fog lamps go) in the pipeline; the ECE and SAE standards have been updated recently to provide a new category of fog lamp, "F3", with better performance requirements than the (very) old previous specifications. The new F3 fog lamp has recently or will soon become mandatory under ECE regs (fog lamps themselves will not be mandatory, but if they are installed they either must or will soon have to be of the F3 type).
Iirc, among other provisions, these new ECE fog lamp regs now impose a maximum limit on in-beam luminous intensity. Shouldn't this have come with a hard-wired speed limiter against the kind of people on the highway who think their kewl-hued, retro-unfit position lamps shine much nicer when the passing beams are deactivated in favor of their foggz? Although maximum reach isn't the design goal for fog lamps, doesn't the intensity limit hinder the (hypothetical) design of any new, high-end fog beams?
 

-Virgil-

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See the lux values in the diagram on the first page of Annex 3 to R19 Rev 4 (and probably any other version previous to Rev 5). In Rev 5, see §6.3.5 for the old R19 photometric requirements ("Class B" fog lamps) translated from angles and lux values to test points and candela, and §6.4.3 for the new Class F3 fog lamp photometric requirements. You can see the Class F3 spec is very much more stringent. It requires higher performance: 2000cd minimum at 2.5° below horizontal, across the whole line from 10° left to 10° right (which is also subject to the Zone D maximum of 8400cd), compared to the Class B spec with 1250cd minimum and 8000cd maximum anywhere between 1.75°D and 3.5°D, measured at "at least one point on each vertical line". The F3 spec also requires a wider beam, with minimum intensity requirements all the way out to 35°L and 35°R (Class B has minimum intensity requirements only out to ±22°) and does a better job of controlling upward light; compare the allowable values for "U" points (which are above horizontal).
 
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Marcturus

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Thanks, I agree that the new regs are more stringent and demand better minimum performance. I'll re-check the sources you mentioned.
 

-Virgil-

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What's the source of your cat avatar? I like it! Wonder if it might be an old Marchal advertisement? They used a black cat with prominent eyes as their logo.
 

opposite locker

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So what's the best add-on fog lamp? Probably a carefully-chosen low beam with a sharp cutoff, a broad beam, strict control of upward stray light, high peak intensity, and a low aim angle

So wouldn't the "blazer" projectors from TRS fit the bill perfectly for good foul weather driving? Without getting into arguments about their business practices, etc... Just curious about this particular product

attachment.php


http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=243
 

-Virgil-

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Green fog lamps...?!! No, looking at the link this is a cheapie Blazer halogen fog lamp, a cosmetic item originally designed for #880 halogen bulbs, that has been "retrofitted" with an HID bulb. That makes it a big fat "NO". HID bulbs do not belong in fog lamps, especially not in fog lamps designed and intended for use with low-output halogen bulbs. This just really is not OK.

Looks like they produce a very wide beam pattern, but without a beam isoplot or at least a compliance chart it's impossible to give them a thumb rating (up or down). And sorry, but "without getting into their business practices" isn't really possible. Their stuff has been widely demonstrated to be highly inconsistent in quality, and as far as I know none of it is certified or approved to any of the applicable regulations, which means the thumb rating would have to be "down".
 
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irsa76

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I'm about to, try, and install my Hella MicroDE fog lights on my wife's car so will compare them to the Valeo reflector foglights I ended up installing on my Rav4.
 

JeeperJake

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haven't seen a good source for comparing the beam of various products. Would think such a display would help evaluate what a potential user might choose.
 

-Virgil-

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You're right, but the problem is it would be prohibitively expensive to compile useful data (i.e., isoplots created by a goniophotometer) to enable real, objective comparisons of the various lamps. Photographs are all but useless at best.
 

GuySmily

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Bumping an older thread here to get more opinions. I want a wider beam for seeing around corners in my neighborhood. It's a new development and I guess to be "green"we have no street lights. Petiole
People walk around at night and wider fogs would be useful.

My 05 mr2 stock fogs are worse than my Ebay LED maglite. Seriously.
 

Hilldweller

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Bumping an older thread here to get more opinions. I want a wider beam for seeing around corners in my neighborhood. It's a new development and I guess to be "green"we have no street lights. Petiole
People walk around at night and wider fogs would be useful.

My 05 mr2 stock fogs are worse than my Ebay LED maglite. Seriously.
Is there something we can do for your headlights first?
What's the MR2 have and what condition is it in?
 

Alaric Darconville

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People walk around at night and wider fogs would be useful.

Fog lamps are only useful in the fog, very heavy dust, or torrential rain (and only at low speeds). Your low-beam headlamps should be ample, so long as the lenses are clear, the bulbs are getting sufficient voltage, and good bulbs are installed-- and, of course, the lamps are aimed correctly.
 

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