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Thread: Philips 12w Teardown

  1. #1

    Default Philips 12w Teardown

    I bought one of these at HD the other day and just couldnt resist taking it apart.



    After looking it over and not finding any screws or obvoius tabs, i figured that the best place to start was the silver plastic top. It came off with a little prying...



    With the top off it reveals 3 pair of wires and releases the yellow plastic lenses/remote phosphor



    interesting, 18 royal blue rebels.



    Rebels on a PCB



    It appears to be a solid ceramic PCB. I dont think ive ever seen one used for power LED before, How does something like this compare to a MPCB? ,FR4?



    typical grey thermal pad.



    This is a shot of it in my basement sans-phosphors. If you look closely you can see the phosphors glowing while sitting on the washing machine. The camera dosent do a very good job of showing what this actually looks like, its much bluer , almost blacklightish in real life.



    Closeup of bulb with only 1 phosphor lens attached.I only included this one because i thought it looked neat.





    After closer inspection of the small pcb on the top it appears all 18 leds are wired in series. I took this reading by unplugging one the sets of leds and connecting the meter up with a similar one i had in the junk box. Starts out at 205mA and over the course of about an hour it worked its way down to about 203mA.



    Question: wouldnt you get more lumens out of 18 white rebels? By my calculations: 18 rebel es's (LXML-PWN2) at 200mA would be somewhere around 1080lm*. Also it seems that white is cheaper then royal blue. Mabey once a diffuser is added this method results in more OTF lumens?



    * datasheet shows a factor of ~0.3@200mA = 60lm (based on 200lm@700ma)

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* LEDninja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    I have recovered the following data from Google's cache manually.
    Please post any errors and corrections in a new post below.
    -
    The format is:
    Date, time, old postcount#, poster;
    post data
    -
    I will try to fix the CPF links in the next 2 weeks or until I give up in frustration. Can not do that and verify with CPF down.

    -----

    01-27-2011 09:16 PM #2 jhellwig

    I was just looking at these on the internet today. I just bought a sylvania 8w a19 today also. It is kinda disappointing. What really sucks is that a cfl is 1 watt more and is rated for more lumens.

    LED's need to come a little further before they are a viable option. There is barley a cost advantage of the led over a cfl. The 8w led costs 60 cents less a year to run over a 13w cfl and it is still half the lumens. Payoff is 1.7 years vs. 45 days for the cfl. The advantage would be very tight for that phillips led vs. the cfl. The cfl is over a 12 dollar savings a year vs. a 60w incan.

    The color rendering is there for the led but they need to get more efficient to make it worth the high price of the bulb.

    Also the things are terribly heavy. Not good for a multi bulb fixture on a chain.

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    01-27-2011 09:26 PM #3 netprince

    great pictures. I had no idea this bulb uses remote phosphors. thanks for sharing.

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    01-28-2011 01:15 PM #4 Marcturus

    Quote Originally Posted by beley
    I bought one of these at HD the other day and just couldnt resist taking it apart.
    Thanks. Posting of the Week nominated.

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    01-28-2011 01:26 PM #5 Marcturus

    Quote Originally Posted by beley
    It appears to be a solid ceramic PCB. I dont think ive ever seen one used for power LED before, How does something like this compare to a MPCB? ,FR4?
    Better, if it's the right material. Best if they had not put those silly pads into the thermal path.

    http://www.ceramtec.com/index/produc...ic-heat-sinks/

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    01-29-2011 11:21 AM #6 beley

    Quote Originally Posted by jhellwig
    .....LED's need to come a little further before they are a viable option....
    agreed. As good as this one is, it still cant be used in the majority of fixtures, and even if the leds were 2x as efficient it would still have no way of getting rid of heat in a closed fixture. I think the future will be fixtures with the led incorporated directly into them. ie, cree CR6

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    01-29-2011 03:08 PM #7 Ken_McE

    Beley, well done

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    01-29-2011 07:12 PM #8 jhellwig

    Quote Originally Posted by beley
    agreed. As good as this one is, it still cant be used in the majority of fixtures, and even if the leds were 2x as efficient it would still have no way of getting rid of heat in a closed fixture. I think the future will be fixtures with the led incorporated directly into them. ie, cree CR6
    The cost to operate a 12 watt led is more than a 13watt cfl(if you include the cost of the bulb). But they are better suited to a lot of applications over the cfl. Instant light. Life not killed by short cycling.

    I duno what allowable tempature rise is for these leds but when you put it in a fixture designed to deal with the heat of a 60 watt incan, there is a lot of room to deal with the heat.

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    01-30-2011 01:27 PM #9 Dave_H

    Really great teardown pictures! I had a minor temptation to acquire one,
    but after seeing the $40 price at Home Depot in Canada (plus 13% taxes)
    I'll be sticking with the 13W CFLs for a while longer.

    However, this got me to thinking, these bulbs could in theory be "refursbished"
    if the phosphor panels are outlived by the LEDs, such that the panels can be
    popped out and replaced. If the life figures are accurate that would still be at
    least a few years from now, by which time prices will have dropped and better
    technology will be out there, but at whetever price/technology point the
    concept is there.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dave_H; 01-30-2011 at 01:38 PM.

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    02-01-2011 06:11 AM #10 VegasF6

    Cool post. Anyone have more details about that remote phosphour? That looks like exactly what I need for my lantern project that has been on the back shelf for a year or so now.

    I just went around my house yesterday changing CFLs out. 9 more of them for the recycler and they weren't that old. Keep that in mind when you figure the total cost, the CFLs I have experience with at least have cheap terrible ballasts. Then of course there is properly disposing of them, kind to the planet etc, but that's not a cost factor.

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    02-05-2011 01:27 PM #11 Harold_B

    I had taken the bulb apart as well. The remote phosphor is likely a doped silicate/polycarbonate compound. It is very difficult to produce phosphor and plastic compounds plus the phosphor is really expensive. There are several good reasons for using a remote phosphor instead of white LEDs which is why CREE and Lighting Sciences are using them in their new bulbs. The color stability over time is the biggest benefit and that is due to removing the thermal blanket effect from the LED die. It is also more efficient in that back scattered light from the emitter doesn't get reabsorbed. I had modeled the bulb with SolidWorks and OptisWorks to generate ray files. The files and a summary report of how I made the model are available along with a tear-down report from another engineer (all free by the way) at his site:

    http://sevengens.com/id59.html

    We did the same thing to a GE 40W equivalent and he has already posted a report on the new Sylvania 60W equivalent which I have been working on but haven't finished.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    I have 6 of these in my house (the highest use fixtures). I was worried about the "no enclosed fixtures" requirement, but once I actually started looking, I was surprised to find how many of my fixtures weren't as enclosed as I thought they were. Like someone said, most of these fixtures were designed to handle the heat from the 60-75W A-lamp (or more really), so not only can the fixture handle the heat, but the fixture was probably designed to have some vents that you don't normally notice.

    When you look right at the bare lamp, you don't notice the "gaps" in the bulb, but if you have it in a small fixture, where the lamp is close to a diffuser, you do notice those gaps.

    I've had them installed about a month. Just now getting used to the "not quite instant" on. It's better than CFL, of course, and as soon as it comes on, it's at full power, but there is still that very brief delay from when I hit the switch to when it comes on (damn capacitors).

    As far as the dimming goes.... They do a pretty good job. I have a couple of them on a cheap wall dimmer and the dimming is very smooth. They don't quite dim down as far as I expected. Probably 10%. Hard to say exactly.

    As far as the CRI, it might have the same measured value as a CFL (82-85), but it's a much better look. This is because of the smoother spectral distribution compared to the CFL, which has a "spikey" SPD. The human eye just likes the smooth SPD. You will not be able to tell much difference vs an incandescent.

    One feature I heard straight from the Philips rep, is that bugs are not attracted to them. Being that I live in Minnesota, I haven't yet have the opportunity to check that out, but if it's true, that'll be pretty nice for outdoor fixtures. I'm not sure if it applies for all LEDs, or just this remote phosphor design. It should work for all white LEDs since the basic design is the same. It's still a blue LED with phosphor, it's just that the phosphor is not right at the LED in this design.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Quote Originally Posted by amjgt View Post
    ....most of these fixtures were designed to handle the heat from the 60-75W A-lamp (or more really), so not only can the fixture handle the heat, but the fixture was probably designed to have some vents that you don't normally notice.....
    The problem isn't wither or not the fixture can handle the heat (they can), its the fact that inside a closed fixture the led "bulb" will become to hot. Unlike an incandescent bulb the led's themselves cant survive (for long) at high temperatures. ie >150 deg C.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Quote Originally Posted by beley View Post
    The problem isn't wither or not the fixture can handle the heat (they can), its the fact that inside a closed fixture the led "bulb" will become to hot. Unlike an incandescent bulb the led's themselves cant survive (for long) at high temperatures. ie >150 deg C.
    The main point was, many fixtures have vents you don't notice.

    I do have one of them inside a fully enclosed fixture, though. The glass globe probably gets up to 35C. We'll see how it does.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Very interesting. So, the phosphor is in the plastic cover huh? I would like to get one to check it out. All white-LED sources have phosphor within the LED.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Quote Originally Posted by amjgt View Post
    One feature I heard straight from the Philips rep, is that bugs are not attracted to them. Being that I live in Minnesota, I haven't yet have the opportunity to check that out, but if it's true, that'll be pretty nice for outdoor fixtures. I'm not sure if it applies for all LEDs, or just this remote phosphor design. It should work for all white LEDs since the basic design is the same. It's still a blue LED with phosphor, it's just that the phosphor is not right at the LED in this design.
    I'll go out on a limb and say it applies to all LEDs because most insects are attracted to UV. Even incandescent lamps emit UV. LEDs just don't unless it's by design.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Quote Originally Posted by beley View Post
    Question: wouldnt you get more lumens out of 18 white rebels? By my calculations: 18 rebel es's (LXML-PWN2) at 200mA would be somewhere around 1080lm*. Also it seems that white is cheaper then royal blue. Mabey once a diffuser is added this method results in more OTF lumens?
    LED bulbs for lighting applications are tested in applied conditions. Have you had this thing turned on for a little while? It gets too hot to touch. I got it to read around 75C with the ambient around 27C. I wouldn't be surprised if Tj is 125C or more. LED datasheet uses Tj 25C or something to rate the output.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    I supplied an image taken with a thermal camera measurement camera to this site: http://sevengens.com/id59.html. Hope the link still works. Anyway, Philips has started to rate their LEDs at 85C. They might not have the standard Rebel spec up to date yet but I know that is the direction they are going. The Rebel is supposed to be able handle heat better than most but ultimately heat will degrade the die and the phosphor over time and that's why a remote a phosphor down conversion like the AmientLED bulb is good design choice. It is also easier to get a uniform light pattern without an additional diffusor and the inherent light loss that comes with it. On the other hand, you have a bulb that looks like a bug light and so they are putting a glass globe over the remote phosphor surface in the 40W replacement. They are more expensive to make in that the phosphor is very costly and they use a lot more of it.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* Walterk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Thx for the teardown. Fascinating.
    Nice to see innovations are made and tried to find their way to consumers.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* EZO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    I came across an article today featuring a teardown of the Phillips 12W LED bulb. When I did a search of CPF I found this already excellent thread and decided to post the links here since I thought it might be of interest as it shows more of the guts of the lamp and has some interesting additional info.

    Philips LED bulb: Tear-down Part I (light patterns)

    Remote Phosphors: Philips LED bulb, Tear-down Part II
    Last edited by EZO; 07-06-2011 at 04:23 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    These have finally been reduced by $15 and are going for $25 at Home Depot now. That's a little more like it.

    In the $40 shelf space now sits the 1100 lumen, 17 watt version. Dying to try that for a living room lamp; maybe it'll come down in price faster than the first one.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    FYI, if you are lucky enough to live or shop in NJ, you can visit a Home Depot and find the 12 watt (800 lumen) for about $15 and the 8 watt (470 lumen) for about $12, all because the state of NJ seems to be kicking in $10 toward the purchase price. Unfortunately, they did not do this for the 17 watt (1100 lumen) bulb, so it still sits at nearly $40. The last great thing we need now is a 20+ watt (1425 lumen) replacement for the lowly 100w incandescent at a reasonable (and subsidized) price and Philips will have this market cornered hands down. $20 would be nice

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* LEDninja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Quote Originally Posted by frank70 View Post
    FYI, if you are lucky enough to live or shop in NJ, you can visit a Home Depot and find the 12 watt (800 lumen) for about $15 and the 8 watt (470 lumen) for about $12, all because the state of NJ seems to be kicking in $10 toward the purchase price. Unfortunately, they did not do this for the 17 watt (1100 lumen) bulb, so it still sits at nearly $40.
    The lower price of the 8 and 12W bulbs may not be due to the rebates but to Philips using less LEDs in the construction of their latest bulbs. They are using 9 LEDs in new 12W and 6 in new 8W instead of the 18 LEDs of the original as shown in post #1.

    The $15/$12 prices seem to match the cheaper manufactured bulbs as shown in this thread:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...g-cost-savings

  15. #15

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Odd, here in California the Philips LEDs are still expensive. I was in Home Depot today and I saw the 8, 12.5 and 17 watters at $21.95, $24.95, and $39.95, respectively. It's weird that California is supposed to be the leader in energy efficiency but I have yet to see any discounts/rebates on LEDs to date.

    Quote Originally Posted by LEDninja View Post
    The lower price of the 8 and 12W bulbs may not be due to the rebates but to Philips using less LEDs in the construction of their latest bulbs. They are using 9 LEDs in new 12W and 6 in new 8W instead of the 18 LEDs of the original as shown in post #1.

    The $15/$12 prices seem to match the cheaper manufactured bulbs as shown in this thread:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...g-cost-savings

  16. #16

    Default Re: Philips 12w Teardown

    Nope, the bulbs are still $21.95 and $24.95 at Home Depot in Pennslyvania (while simultaneously $11.95 and $14.95 at Home Depot in NJ). These are apparently the new design because the packaging changed, the lumens for the 12W changed from 800 to 805, and the color temperature changed from 2700K to 2690K. I doubt either of the last two changes would be perceptible, but it does indicate a design change, yet the price did not decrease. Furthermore, the lower prices in NJ have been in effect for at least 6 months now and I bought some of the old packaging at those prices.

    You can actually prove this to yourself by going to the Home Depot web site, searching for the 8 or 12 watt bulb, and asking to pick one up at a store in NJ, and another one at a store in PA. They will be $10 different in price in the cart.
    Last edited by frank70; 08-13-2012 at 03:54 PM.

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