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Thread: XM-L Reflectors & Optics

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* LilKevin715's Avatar
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    Default XM-L Reflectors & Optics

    Here is a quick comparison of different types of P60 reflectors on a XM-L. I thought it might be useful to anyone interested in different types of beam patterns, building their own modules, etc.

    Shots are underexposed to show the hotspot better, light is about 0.5m away from the wall.

    1) Solarforce XP-G SMO
    2) Solarforce XM-L SMO
    3) XP-G OP (modified)
    4) Thrunite XM-L OP
    5) XR-E OP
    6) XR-E SMO

    Observations:

    1) Solarforce XP-G SMO Reflector
    Good amount of throw due to the deeper reflector from the Solarforce module. There is one transition step from hotspot to spill.

    2) Solarforce XM-L SMO Reflector
    Highest amount of throw (hotspot lux) I have seen for a P60 XM-L reflector. There is a faint clover/petal pattern from hotspot to spill.

    3) XP-G OP Reflector (modified)
    Medium beam with decent hotspot. Transition from hotspot to spill is VERY smooth.

    4) Thrunite XM-L OP Reflector
    Very floody beam due to the short reflector depth. Large fuzzy hotspot with lots of spill.

    5) XR-E OP Reflector
    Floody but useful beam. Hotspot is decent and lots of spill.

    6) XR-E SMO Reflector
    Similar to XR-E OP but with higher lux/intensity. The transition from hotspot to spill was interesting, almost like a bullseye target.


    Conclusion:
    XR-E reflectors for floody beam, XP-G reflectors for medium beam. Irreguardless of reflector choice the XM-L in a P60 form factor will be floody in nature due to the larger emitter size.
    Last edited by LilKevin715; 07-09-2011 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Images updated and fixed due to Forum crash

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* LilKevin715's Avatar
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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Updated images have been uploaded since the original pictures were not linked correctly due to the forum crash. I've also added 2 more reflectors into the mix as well as some additional insight.
    My Mag Mods: SST-50 , XM-L

  3. #3

    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Hey thanks for the beamshots. I missed this thread the first time around. Glad you decided to update it.


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    Default XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Hi, I would have imagined that someone has already created a thread to accumulate information on various optics and reflectors for the Cree XM-L, but I could not find it.

    If not, then please feel free to post information, links, etc for any reflectors or optics you know of for the Cree XM-L. It would be handy to find beam shots, etc. as well.

    I don't use this LED much, but I have been asked to consider doing a project using this LED, so any information / links you have would be helpful.

    EDIT - well it turns out that someone had in fact started an XM-L reflector and optics thread - I just missed it. Thanks to DM51 for merging these threads.

    Thanks

    HarryN
    Last edited by HarryN; 07-09-2011 at 09:19 AM.
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

  5. #5

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    First place I would suggest to go is the Cree site for the spec sheet and links to the IES rayset and STEP file downloads:
    http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xml.asp

  6. #6

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    What beam angle does your project require ? as I have spent many hours looking for available optics and reflectors for the XM-L. Ledil has only a few for that led. I have used optics and reflectors made for the Cree MC-E with very good results as the size would fit without modification to the optic/reflector. As an example, for a nice even floody beam, I used a Khatod KCLP1278CR square reflector (almost impossible to find) that works perfectly for my projects that require a floody beam. For a tighter beam, I tried a Ledil CMC series made for the MC-E and they also worked perfectly. I always get my leds on a 20mm star as it gives me plenty of room to solder and fit the optic/reflector easily. Not really for flashlights but if you need a fixture/lamp or housing, they may do nicely, are cheap and readily available (except the Khatod). I know that Ledil has the Boom reflectors made for the MC-E and I Imagine that they will also work fine as I will purchase a few for my XM-L projects. Carlco by now should have at least a few since the XM-L came out a while ago. Same story there, as I would think that any optic/reflector made for the P7 Seoul or the MC-E should give satisfactory results, perhaps not 100% perfect but that is what we have now to work with. I hope that many varieties will be available soon made just for the XM-L since it is an extremely popular led.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Hi, thanks for the replies.

    My part of the project is the "star" portion. I have been using some fairly decent thermal path MCPCB's that I have for Rebels and have been asked to do one for a single XM-L style "star" board.

    The "star" I have in mind is similar, but not identical in shape to the conventional ones and it has some custom hole locations. What I have not been given is what the optics decision is going to be, so I am proactively gathering up information on the existing optic / reflector options and will attempt to design around those. Hopefully, I will choose the right ones.

    Of course, the more reflectors and optics I can consider, the better the odds of being correct.

    Please don't ask me to find out more, it is just easier at this point to make sure it fits whatever is commonly used. BTW, if you have some favorite optics, please list them here. (this thread)

    If you need something special in a star, or have an interference problems, let me know in this thread

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...mation-Thread&

    and I will try to accomodate in this design.
    Last edited by HarryN; 06-21-2011 at 12:42 AM.
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    My favorite is Ledil LXP-RS. All you need to do is to enlarge the hole in the holder so the dome fits in.

    Also modified Regina is a good thrower but I don't have any beamshots available. Ledil Iris has some great throw too with decent flood, but it's rather large and heavy.

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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Thanks for that info and the pictures. I can see why you like those setups.

    Do you happen to have any pictures of how you did the board / lens interface ? The lens holders seem to assume that the top of the PCB is perfectly flat vs. the reality that there are wires, solder pads, and fasteners involved.

    Any suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks

    Harry
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

  10. #10

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Keeping an eye on this thread as I am interested in learning more about this topic... Trying to learn all I can before I start a flood light project!!

  11. #11

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Flood light project ? here's a few suggestions for the wider beam, not necessarily for flashlights.
    I kind of narrowed the optics/reflectors to just a handful of useful ones that work great on a 20mm star with the XM-L.
    Carclo 20mm series of optics have the holder that fits nice on the star with plenty of space for the solder blob to not interfere with the holder alignment.They have optics made for the XM-L, just a hassle finding who has em' in stock.
    Ledil CMC square optic holders made for the MC-E ( but will also accomodate the XM-L if you "eye it" to lie centered ) must be shaved off a bit at the bottom, a Dremel tool or rat-tail file will do. Not the optic, just the holder as the optic comes off the holder when you do the filing part on the holder.I often use the optic and forget using the holder altogether but you have to use Arctic Alumna ADHESIVE at the bottom of the optic (very little of it), wait till that dries and then put a bit more around the outside circumference at the bottom of the optic to cement it firmly to the star. I find this way gives a lot of room to solder around.You just have to be careful to center the led die by looking directly down on the optic before it dries fast.If it is for a flood optic, I noticed that the exact centering is not that crucial but try to get it as close as possible.The only problem with cementing them is that you cannot change the optics as opposed to using the holder where you can just pry the optic out and replace it with any other in the CMC series.Ledil also have the BOOM reflectors made for the MC-E and I used the wide one with great success on an XM-L as the beam was around 45 degrees. Optics made for the XP-E and XR-E are too small to fit the XM-L onto, and drilling them to fit would be a risky attempt as it will make the optic not perform correctly with the XM-L. I really like the Ledil Booms a lot, easy to find (Digikey, Cutter etc.). Check out Fraen also and see what they have as well as Khatod's offerings. Just wondering why there are not many Khatod suppliers.

  12. #12

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Well this is an embarrassing typo for my first post!! I didn't mean Flood.... I meant Spot with maybe some decent close up spill light!!! I don't want to hijack this thread so I probably should start another anyway... but I am enjoying all that I am learning reading and appreciate Videoman for posting up so much info!!

    I am trying to mimic this lamp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3HolVrSzd8&feature=player_detailpage

    for my remote controlled spot light

  13. #13
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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Videoman - If you don't mind, can you post some example pictures of how you mounted the various optics and reflectors in this thread ? As I look at the various stars and optics, I see a lot of potential for mechanical interference, especially if you screw down the star. Especially some of the LEDIL optics for the xm-l seem to be almost designed to be in the way of the star. I am guessing that I am somehow missing just how some of these are supposed to work.

    Surfbark - if your desire for info relates in the most remote way to the XM-L and optics, I think it is fine to post info and questions here.
    Harry
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

  14. #14

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    @Harry - any pics of how you mounted the Carclo 10267 side emitting optic to the XM-L?

    I've ordered the XM-L's on a round aluminium mpcb and I'm starting to think this could be a problem now

    Thanks

  15. #15

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Harry, I will try to post a few shots as soon as I figure out how to post photos, as I never posted any before. I know exactly what the issue is with mounting the optics/lenses onto the stars. Carclo holders are the easiest I find in my opinion as they most readily fit the standard star 6 hole placement and allow the solder blob to have adequate space to lie under the holder without any interferrence. I noticed that the Ledil holders, especially the 21mm square ones lie flat and you have to kind of Dremmel out 2 cavities under them so that the solder blob has room. I have asked the same question in the past and there was no clear answer either from the led suppliers (how would they know?) and in these forums as the stars most readily lend themselves to be adapted easily to flashlight with reflector use.I have taken the Dremmel route. It seems like ultra flat wiring may work, but even then it would have some sort of thickness with the solder however small.No dice.If I am using the Ledil optics, I do not use the holder at all, all I do is take the optic, apply a small amount of glue just so that it stays, wait till that glue dries good and then apply a larger amount of glue ON THE OUTSIDE perimeter of the optic where the optic touches the star. I find it is better to solder the star leads FIRST and then do the optic glueing part later, the last step would be to glue down the star/optic set to the heatsink you have. All of this I am assuming is not really for a flashlight but for a lamp/fixture.

  16. #16

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Harry, check this out http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ication-Needed
    also there is a link on post #3 for bike light mods. Tons of useful info. there.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aae55555 View Post
    @Harry - any pics of how you mounted the Carclo 10267 side emitting optic to the XM-L?

    I've ordered the XM-L's on a round aluminium mpcb and I'm starting to think this could be a problem now

    Thanks
    Hi, I mostly use multi die rebel stars and custom boards, so interestingly the problems of mechanical interference are much smaller. There are no free lunches, just trade offs when using multiple LED setups vs. one larger package and one optical path. Nonetheless, in this case I didn't pick the overall approach, I am just helping out.

    I have not tried that Carclo optic, but will look at it. Which star combination did you buy ? Do you have a link for it?

    I have been looking at a variety of stars and optic / reflector combinations lately, along with another CPFr to get a few heads around this challenge. If it were just a few hobby flashlights it would be a non issue, as you can always "file to fit", but this really needs to work in reasonable volumes.

    At this point, I have pretty much given up on finding an existing star board that will work and am laying out a custom one that is more accomodating to the project needs. Even with a fully custom design layout (and being willing to ignore some typical star features) this isn't all that easy.

    The only fixed feature is 20mm nominal size and either an XM-L or MC-E on it and great thermals. (so two layouts). Yes, in spite of the data sheets and marketing, the MC-E still manages to be quite competitive under the harsh glow of the integrating sphere meter.
    Last edited by HarryN; 06-30-2011 at 10:24 AM.
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by videoman View Post
    Harry, I will try to post a few shots as soon as I figure out how to post photos, as I never posted any before. I know exactly what the issue is with mounting the optics/lenses onto the stars. Carclo holders are the easiest I find in my opinion as they most readily fit the standard star 6 hole placement and allow the solder blob to have adequate space to lie under the holder without any interferrence. I noticed that the Ledil holders, especially the 21mm square ones lie flat and you have to kind of Dremmel out 2 cavities under them so that the solder blob has room. I have asked the same question in the past and there was no clear answer either from the led suppliers (how would they know?) and in these forums as the stars most readily lend themselves to be adapted easily to flashlight with reflector use.I have taken the Dremmel route. It seems like ultra flat wiring may work, but even then it would have some sort of thickness with the solder however small.No dice.If I am using the Ledil optics, I do not use the holder at all, all I do is take the optic, apply a small amount of glue just so that it stays, wait till that glue dries good and then apply a larger amount of glue ON THE OUTSIDE perimeter of the optic where the optic touches the star. I find it is better to solder the star leads FIRST and then do the optic glueing part later, the last step would be to glue down the star/optic set to the heatsink you have. All of this I am assuming is not really for a flashlight but for a lamp/fixture.
    Thanks for that info, I really appreciate it. I figured I was just missing the point or something, but the interferences are exactly as you describe. The links also help clarify the challenge.

    I like your idea about adding some kind of insulation to the optic / reflector to prevent shorts. We clearly saw this potential problem on the LEDIL Boom reflector setup. So far, the idea of having to customize each part has not been warmly met, as you can imagine.

    This particular application is space constrained, so the star needs to be fastened down first, then soldered / wired in, then the rest of the optical assy added later.

    We are looking at wire options, but with currents in the 3 amp range, 20 guage wire seems appropriate. Our initial attempt to flatten the existing wire selection failed, so we might have to look around for that aspect. Perhaps some silicone coated or other creative wire would help.
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

  19. #19

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Hi Harry,

    The reflector with the absolute best beam ( that can be used at 3A) that I have found is the McR reflectors from the shoppe.
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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vestureofblood View Post
    Hi Harry,

    The reflector with the absolute best beam ( that can be used at 3A) that I have found is the McR reflectors from the shoppe.
    Thanks for that info. Any chance you have some beam shots that you can post here ?

    That reflector has no feet, so I don't expect too many interference problems from that family of products. Did you run into anything like that with the stars you used ?

    Of course, it doesn't attach down either, so it requires a clamp down approach.

    For convenience, here is a link to the data sheet.

    http://dmcleish.com/CPF/reflectors/2...flector-mm.pdf

    Of course, it doesn't attach down either, so it requires a clamp down approach.
    Last edited by HarryN; 07-01-2011 at 10:32 AM.
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

  21. #21

    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Here is a shot with one of the McRs running at 3A


    I didnt attach the reflector directly to the star with this, but the base of these is narrow so even with a small star like 14MM there is no issue with shorts or wires getting in the way.

    I would use a ring around the LED to make sure the contacts on the top of the actual LED dont short on the reflector if your going to clamp it on the led.

    For me these proved to be a better approach than using the MCE booms or plastic optics, plus with the metal there is no worry about melt downs.

    This reflector IMO provides excellent balance. Very bright spill, with a large detectable hot spot, and a far reaching throw.
    Last edited by vestureofblood; 07-01-2011 at 10:42 AM.
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    Default Re: XM-L (cree) Optics and Reflectors Thread

    Thanks for that info Vestures. If you ever have a chance, please post a picture of how that reflector looks sitting on a board.

    For convenience, I am adding some links to some XM-L builds from the custom and homebuilt section. These have the optics listed as well as some beam shots.

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...wer-Module-DD&

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...y-500-lumens)&
    Last edited by HarryN; 07-07-2011 at 09:34 AM.
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

  23. #23
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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Does anyone know any good cheap sources for XM-L P60 reflectors? I've only gotten XP-E reflectors with the empty drop-ins that I've purchased. I haven't found any sellers that specify anything beyond OP or SMO yet.

  24. #24

    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    I use the XR-E reflectors that come standard, as long as it's OP you should get a good quality beam. Thanks for doing the comparison likekevin, is there a slight donut in the solarforce XM-L or is that just me?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    I assembled my own XM-L drop-in and the beam was nice with the common XP-E OP reflector but the LED just didn't sit right against the reflector. Looking on the back of my Solarforce XM-L reflector, the opening seems a tiny bit larger, and a lot of material around the back of the reflector has been machined away so that it pushes against the emitter board only along the rim right next to the LED.

    I don't really have the proper tools to modify these reflectors nicely. Any tricks or suggestions? Where have you all been getting your XM-L reflectors if not in complete drop-in modules? Thanks!

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* LilKevin715's Avatar
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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    is there a slight donut in the solarforce XM-L or is that just me?
    If you stare at white-walls all day long then you might see a slight donut (on low). To me personally unless I'm looking for it I won't notice it in real world use. On high there is so much light you wouldn't notice a donut.

    Where have you all been getting your XM-L reflectors if not in complete drop-in modules?
    Besides buying a XM-L module, Jo @ solarforce-sales can help you out. Just email them and they can arrange to purchase reflectors only.
    My Mag Mods: SST-50 , XM-L

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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Besides buying a XM-L module, Jo @ solarforce-sales can help you out. Just email them and they can arrange to purchase reflectors only.
    Awesome! I'll give that a try. Thanks for the tip!

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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowPoke808 View Post
    I assembled my own XM-L drop-in and the beam was nice with the common XP-E OP reflector but the LED just didn't sit right against the reflector. Looking on the back of my Solarforce XM-L reflector, the opening seems a tiny bit larger, and a lot of material around the back of the reflector has been machined away so that it pushes against the emitter board only along the rim right next to the LED.
    Sorry, I meant XR-E reflector, not XP-E reflector. You guys that know these reflectors must have been wondering what the heck I was talking about...

  29. #29
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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Two good threads covering the same topic - I've merged them.
    Resistance is futile...

  30. #30
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    Default Re: XM-L P60 Reflectors

    Hi DM51 - Thank you for merging these threads. It is a lot more efficient that way.

    Lilkevin715 - Thanks for starting this thread on XM-L Reflectors. Nice beam shots and good info BTW. I somehow missed your thread when I was searching through originally.

    Would you consider broadening the thread title to something like "XM-L reflectors and Optics" to make it inclusive of other size applications ?

    Thanks and take care,

    Harry
    Homebuilts - "BREEZE" RCR2 sidexside, "Tornado" 4 x 18650 side x side, Streamlight SL20x LED module (Custom BST Feeler Thread)

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