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Thread: Surefire boring service

  1. #451
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    God this won't stop will it...
    Not to worry, it will stop at exactly the moment your heart stops beating

    in regards to the groove modifications, and taking it one step further - machining the grooved section of the tube completely smooth. It would give the light a look similar to a Mac's EDC. Would the tube still remain strong enough, or would you recommend not being that dramatic with the changes?
    To properly answer your question requires Finite Element Analysis (FEA) of the tubular structure we call a flashlight body. SolidWorks and other CAD programs can calculate tube strength in different loading scenarios & will provide an accurate answer. That said, here's my unscientific guess - the grooves add some strength to the tube if a crushing force is applied but make it no stronger in compression or tension.

    The orange arrows in the photo below shows the thinnest parts of the V10R body as it comes from the factory:



    The groove mod just barely cuts below that surface, reducing the radius about 0.1mm (.004"). For practical purposes the radius & diameter are almost identical after the groove mod as shown below:



    The V10R tube is substantially thick, around 2.5mm (0.098") wall thickness. Whether it retains the ridges or whether the tube is turned smooth should make little difference in practical use.
    Last edited by precisionworks; 03-06-2012 at 06:01 AM.
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  2. #452
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Quote Originally Posted by akarc View Post
    Wow a top notch...you are a talented machinist...and hi Sir
    Thank you very much for your kind words
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  3. #453
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Hmmm, even though I haven't finished the 2 projects I have going at the moment it looks like I may now already have a 3rd lined up .

  4. #454
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    Hmmm, even though I haven't finished the 2 projects I have going at the moment it looks like I may now already have a 3rd lined up .
    Can you have a v10r shipped to my address? I can either modify that light and send it back with your C2 or it can take the place of the C2.
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  5. #455
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Um...I can't afford to purchase the V10 at the moment (unless the V10 body replaces the C2 body? Got a spare lol?) So I'll leave it for the time being. I'll get around to it once my bank account is a bit healthier lol!!!

  6. #456
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    For anyone who is interested I have talked to Barry via his website about doing what I requested above to a standard Aluminum V10r. It is indeed possible so I look forward to getting some work done

  7. #457
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    For anyone who is interested I have talked to Barry via his website about doing what I requested above to a standard Aluminum V10r. It is indeed possible so I look forward to getting some work done
    Your V10R XM-L T6 will ship from Battery Junction today

    Images will be posted that show the machining progress on the tube as this is a black anodized light. Planning to first machine it to the Standard groove mod, continue to the Ultra groove mod, and finish with a straight tube without grooves. It will be interesting to see the way the bright aluminum plays against the black ano.

    Please think about how the smooth tube should finish out. With the aluminum-specific lathe insert the finish will be not quite mirror but really close, looking much like a Surefire that's been bored. It may be a bit too smooth for a good grip. Micro V-grooves are one option to consider but you may come up with something better. Super fine knurling can also be applied but will change the surface from bright to much less reflective.
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  8. #458
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    Please think about how the smooth tube should finish out. With the aluminum-specific lathe insert the finish will be not quite mirror but really close, looking much like a Surefire that's been bored. It may be a bit too smooth for a good grip. Micro V-grooves are one option to consider but you may come up with something better. Super fine knurling can also be applied but will change the surface from bright to much less reflective.
    Funny stuff! I sort of addressed some of these points in my email sent not more than a few minutes ago! I have considered the fact the machined section will be natural but was thinking I'd probably have it re-anodized, or given my current obsession with Cerakote, getting that done to it instead. I might wait to see what it looks like fresh off the lathe before deciding. Exciting stuff.

  9. #459

    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Can Surefire M961 weapon light be bored for AW 18650? It is 9P length but in two parts?

  10. #460
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep6Osama View Post
    Can Surefire M961 weapon light be bored for AW 18650? It is 9P length but in two parts?
    I'm on the road right now but I will research that this evening.

    EDIT: Sat down last night & wrote up the response but my broadband connection is having fits every evening & kept dropping off. Normal speed looks like this:



    Every evening the numbers run about 0.3Mb/s download & 0.6Mb/s upload with a 150 millisecond ping:



    Back OT. Let's start with a look at the weapon light in question:



    The M961/M962 look like the image above & use 3xCR123. The M971/M972 have the large turbo head & also use 3xCR123. The -1 model has a dual thumbscrew rail clamp as shown above while the -2 model uses a throw lever rail clamp. All are made to attach to the Picatinny rail common to all modern assault rifles - here's more info on the P-rail: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=1...he_Difference_

    It is possible to bore any of these lights for 18mm cells. The issue is the integral lug that's machined into each end of the tube (see orange arrows above). Those lugs prevent using the fixture already machined for the 9P or the fixture for the M3. A new fixture would need to be designed & machined to hold any of these lights, roughly a two hour job. On top of that the diameter of the fixture would be so large that it would not fit through the chuck on the lathe & that means at least twice as much set up time after the fixture is built. All in all this ends up to be a $200 USD job EDIT - boring for weaponlights is now available:

    Weapon Lights require a much longer set up & cost more. Unlike any other lights a WML may require as many as three separate custom fixtures, three setups, etc.
    One cell WML's are $57 + shipping.
    Two cell WML's are $67 + shipping.
    Three cell WML's are $77 + shipping.
    Last edited by precisionworks; 06-17-2014 at 06:24 AM.
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  11. #461
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Received this from Mattaus by email & thought it may be of general interest to V10R owners:

    To summarize:


    - I'd like the handle section smoothed flat so that it has a Mac's EDC look about it.



    - Is there anyway to create some grooving to make it less plain? Again Mac's EDC-ish...such a simple and clean design those lights! Nothing substantial - just something to break it up a bit, or is that really too difficult to do on this light?



    - On the V10r Ti you have used as your experiment you've beveled the edge of the battery tube that connects to the head of the light so it's not just a sudden right angle from handle to head. Can this be done on both ends of the tube (so the start of the tail cap as well)? Or is it only feasible on the head end? Obviously the angle of the bevel needs to match on both ends otherwise it would look a bit 'off'.
    A look at Mac's EDC shows the design Mattaus is looking for:



    Shallow grooves like those can be cut but a "form tool" will have to be ground so that each groove has a 45° shoulder where the groove meets the raised section. Not too big a deal.

    The grooves need to stay shallow & I'll have to measure the V10R tube to see how deep they can go. Even though the tube is almost 2.5mm thick a groove depth of 0.5mm on the radius leaves the tube at just 1.5mm thick. Probably thick enough but Mattaus will have to decide this.

    The bevels on both ends of the battery tube are easy enough to do. This reminds me of the American fast food chain Burger King:



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  12. #462
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    The bevels on both ends of the battery tube are easy enough to do. This reminds me of the American fast food chain Burger King:
    We had Burger King here but a local chain called "Hungry Jacks" (which are basically the Aussie version of BK) sued the pants off them and BK haven't been seen since.

    On to the light...

    I'm trusting your judgment Barry! I'm not a materials expert, I have no experience with machining, and my engineering expertise is in air nav - certainly nothing structural. I'm the kind of guy that will kick a wheel and tell someone the car is fine, even if the steering wheel is missing! OK, so maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but I'm sure you get the point. Honestly I'm happy for you to go to town on this light. If it was the Ti version then I'd be a bit more apprehensive, but as it stands I'm willing to watch you work your magic.

    If you think 1.5mm will be strong enough then so do I. Keep in mind I'm not a heavy user - I have other lights I take camping, so these sorts of lights will rarely leave the house or the glove box in my car.

    So long as I get something working back!

    - Matt

    EDIT: For the record I like MACs EDC look so if that's what you end up trying that would be perfect. I'm not a massive fan of knurling, but if you think of something interesting or different you would like to try, let me know!
    Last edited by Mattaus; 03-08-2012 at 07:29 AM.

  13. #463

    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Go through some of your post about milling trit slot on the haiku. Man, you did awesome job. At some point i'll have to sent my pak to you to do some trit slot work.

  14. #464
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayhighh View Post
    Go through some of your post about milling trit slot on the haiku. Man, you did awesome job. At some point i'll have to sent my pak to you to do some trit slot work.
    Thanks Cary

    The Twin Trit Tail has generated quite a bit of interest & one member is scheduled to send his in for the double trits. If anyone thinks up something else that's new or different I'd like to hear about it & explore the idea. There are lots of trit locations that have yet to be discovered.
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  15. #465
    Flashaholic* stoli67's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service







    My new V10R battery tube.... Thanks Barry.... I love it... the trits and the grooves... not to mention the bezel!



    Last edited by stoli67; 03-12-2012 at 05:01 AM.
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  16. #466
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoli67 View Post
    My new V10R battery tube.... Thanks Barry.... I love it... the trits and the grooves... not to mention the bezel!

    Thank you Stoli

    You did a great job installing the trits & the selection of colors is awesome.
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  17. #467
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    OK,

    I semi rushed this first pic but hopefully it gets the image I have in my head across. It's missing the beveled edge leading to the tail and the head of the light, but the idea is the raised grooves. Thanks Stoli for the picture ;-):



    I think it's technically possible but I have never owned nor held a V10 so I can only go by the pictures I've seen. It's sort of what you showed us back in post #429(!), but the thicker area at the end of each tube is machined on the inside edges instead of the outside....if that makes sense. It just looks more symmetrical (is this even the right context for that word?) and cleaner in my honest opinion. Each to his own at least haha!

    Let me know what you think. I'm working on a second 'design' now but I probably won't get that done before bed time

    Cheers!

    - Matt

    EDIT: I've sort of given up on the second idea because try as I might I can't get it drawn properly. Basically it was to machine the cell tube totally flat as originally intended, and the re-instate the 8 original small grooves to the tube. The grooves would differ this time however in that they would be unbroken for the entire circumference of the battery tube (so no flat spot every 90 degrees) and there would be 10 (add one more each end of the original set of 8). The grooves would all retain the original grooves width, depth and spacing. If the depth proves to be an issue given the tight tolerances already present, then they can be shallower and still achieve the same effect I'd imagine. Pretty simple to explain I guess.

    I told you it neither idea was exactly ground breaking!
    Last edited by Mattaus; 03-12-2012 at 07:46 AM.

  18. #468
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    OK,

    I semi rushed this first pic but hopefully it gets the image I have in my head across. It's missing the beveled edge leading to the tail and the head of the light, but the idea is the raised grooves. Thanks Stoli for the picture ;-):



    I think it's technically possible but I have never owned nor held a V10 so I can only go by the pictures I've seen. It's sort of what you showed us back in post #429(!), but the thicker area at the end of each tube is machined on the inside edges instead of the outside....
    With apologizies to Stoli ... something like this, where the orange rectangles cover the metal to be machined away?

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  19. #469
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    With apologizies to Stoli ... something like this, where the orange rectangles cover the metal to be machined away?

    Yup that's pretty much it. Looking at the rounded ends of that central flat spot it looks as if they have just a large enough amount of flat before they curve to be machined to look identical to the 3 'grips' in the middle.

    As for the edge beveling on the ends of the tube (to the tail cap and to the head) the best look would be to match the angle used to bevel the top edge on each of the grips. As I understand it the grip edges look beveled on the tail side (roughly a 70 degree angle?) and perpendicular to the tube on the head side. Is this correct?

  20. #470
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    Yup that's pretty much it. Looking at the rounded ends of that central flat spot it looks as if they have just a large enough amount of flat before they curve to be machined to look identical to the 3 'grips' in the middle.

    As for the edge beveling on the ends of the tube (to the tail cap and to the head) the best look would be to match the angle used to bevel the top edge on each of the grips.
    I'd never thought to make 5 equally spaced grooves ... DUH Great idea & it should look really good ... I may have to license that from you

    As I understand it the grip edges look beveled on the tail side (roughly a 70 degree angle?) and perpendicular to the tube on the head side. Is this correct?
    The insert is a 55° diamond & (check my math) the angle from the tube to the bevel is 90°+35°=125°. The other side is perpendicular to the tube.
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  21. #471
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    The insert is a 55° diamond & (check my math) the angle from the tube to the bevel is 90°+35°=125°. The other side is perpendicular to the tube.
    Where does the 35° come from? I'm no machinist so I'm not sure how a 55° insert actually cuts...125° does look right at least. When I guessed 70° I was 'measuring' my angle counter-clockwise. 5° off on a visual guess is not bad!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    I may have to license that from you
    **Hands over license free of charge**

  22. #472
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    Where does the 35° come from? I'm no machinist so I'm not sure how a 55° insert actually cuts...125° does look right at least...
    Disclaimer - It's 0540 here & only two cups of java have been consumed.

    The included angle can either be read as 55° measured on the head side of the bevel or 35° measured on the tail side. The 35° angle is 90 <55> = 35. Set a bevel protractor on the tube & the "back" or angled face is 35° past perpendicular, so 90° + 35° = 125°

    The reason for my excellent math skills is that I had to take each math class twice in order to pass

    YMMV
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  23. #473
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    Disclaimer - It's 0540 here & only two cups of java have been consumed.
    At that time tomorrow morning I'll be....fast asleep

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    The included angle can either be read as 55° measured on the head side of the bevel or 35° measured on the tail side. The 35° angle is 90 <55> = 35. Set a bevel protractor on the tube & the "back" or angled face is 35° past perpendicular, so 90° + 35° = 125°
    Seems straight forward enough. I just wasn't sure how the cutting insert is actually shaped, nor am I aware of how they are 'applied' to the surface they cut. Hence why I couldn't understand how a 55° insert cuts a 35° angle, though I of course realised 90° - 55° clearly had something to do with it!!!

    I never failed maths and I even did Astro Physics at university. That doesn't mean I have to like it

  24. #474
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    ... wasn't sure how the cutting insert is actually shaped, nor am I aware of how they are 'applied' to the surface ...


    Not sure that the image is easy to interpret ... the tail end of the body is held in the split collet chuck & the head end is supported by the white Delrin rod. The tool is moved toward the chuck & the "front" face of the insert machines a 90° angle when it meets the groove/ridge location. Then the tool is moved in the reverse direction & the "back" face of the insert produces the bevel angle.

    FWIW inserts aren't designed to cut on the back face but that looked like the best option considering the tooling available. One insert is ready for the trash can after profiling one tube
    Last edited by precisionworks; 03-13-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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  25. #475
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire boring service

    Ah! Makes perfect sense...I should become a machinist now. Not! I'll leave it to the experts I think ;-)

    My tube shouldn't waste one of your inserts, being plain old boring Aluminum after all.

  26. #476
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    ... My tube shouldn't waste one of your inserts, being plain old boring Aluminum after all.
    +1

    Carbide inserts can have a long life in aluminum alloys. Aluminum generates almost as much heat as titanium at the cutting point but aluminum rapidly conducts the heat away from the point. Ti has limited thermal conductivity, is many times tougher to shear away, and eats inserts like a kid eating candy.

    A lathe or mill is run at a speed determined primarily by the type material being machined. Cemented carbides soften when they reach a very high temperature & the goal is to run the machine as fast as possible without softening (actually plasticizing) the insert. Most reference material suggests about 1000 surface feet per minute (393 M/min) in aluminum. Titanium runs around 100 sfpm (39 M/min). Even though the aluminum part is turning ten times faster than the Ti part the cutting tool has longer life.
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  27. #477
    Flashaholic* Mattaus's Avatar
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    I really should get my hands on a Ti light one day. The result must be worth far more than the effort and cost to produce them.

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    +1

    Carbide inserts can have a long life in aluminum alloys. Aluminum generates almost as much heat as titanium at the cutting point but aluminum rapidly conducts the heat away from the point. Ti has limited thermal conductivity, is many times tougher to shear away, and eats inserts like a kid eating candy.

    A lathe or mill is run at a speed determined primarily by the type material being machined. Cemented carbides soften when they reach a very high temperature & the goal is to run the machine as fast as possible without softening (actually plasticizing) the insert. Most reference material suggests about 1000 surface feet per minute (393 M/min) in aluminum. Titanium runs around 100 sfpm (39 M/min). Even though the aluminum part is turning ten times faster than the Ti part the cutting tool has longer life.

  28. #478
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    I really should get my hands on a Ti light one day. The result must be worth far more than the effort and cost to produce them.
    Cannot explain the appeal except that it looks good, is awfully tough, nearly impossible to corrode, and very light for the strength it has. Not many other metals combine all those attributes. Once you hold or use a McGizmo, Mac's Custom, Mirage Man, etc. you may find it hard to put down. No matter what you do, don't even look at anything from Cool Fall or PhotonFanatic - their lights would look at home in the Museum of Modern Art
    Last edited by precisionworks; 03-13-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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  29. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    No matter what you do, don't even look at anything from Cool Fall or PhotonFanatic - their lights would look at home in the Museum of Modern Art
    Too late :-(

  30. #480
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattaus View Post
    Too late :-(
    Don't worry, there's a 12-Step Program for flashaholics

    Finally some great news about my dismal broadband - the DSL line gets severed today & is replaced with a cable modem guaranteed to run at 15 mbs download (+/- 10%). That will be an asset for photo upload/download to the hosting site I use.

    Because of the ISP switchover my email address is changed. To send an email please click on PrecisionWorks in my sig line & go to the website. Some of my email is disappearing before I can reply & there was an email this morning that asked IIRC about what rechargeable cells can be run in a SF LX2.

    The LX2 is built with essentially E-Series dimensions & that means a factory bore size that just allows a CR123 to easily slide in. To use a 17mm cell (17670) the tube is bored/reamed/honed to just a few thousandths (about .08mm) over battery size. Bore ends up at 0.692" (17.6mm), O-ring groove outside diameter is 0.752" (19.1mm) & battery tube retains great strength.

    A number of E-series tubes have been bored for 18mm (mostly 18650) but the O-ring wall is left somewhat thin. Those tubes are reamed to 0.728" (18.5mm) & final honed to 0.728+. O-ring wall thickness is 0.012" (.3mm). No one has yet had a failure on one of these tubes but it is possible that impacting the head at just the right angle with extreme force would cause a separation.
    Last edited by precisionworks; 03-14-2012 at 06:26 AM.
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