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Thread: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

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    Default Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I'm somewhat new to neutral tinted lights. I bought a Zebralight H51w (neutral white) a couple of months ago for running, and the tint seems to make this light appear dark for the amount of lumens it produces. Both the spot & especially the spill seem darker than my cool white lights with similar lumens, and I'm running it on a fresh eneloop each time. Is this a common impression by many others? It is dissapointing as I like the way the tint looks & the color rendering, but for running it seems too dim. I'm now considering getting the H51 cool white version to see if I can see better with it. I had one briefly last year, but gave it away as a gift, so I can't compare....dang.

    I go running before sun up. Half of my run is around a lake out in the open, and I only need 25-50 lumens. The other half is on trails in the woods where I need a lot more lumens with a good balance of flood & throw. I got tired of running with the H51w, so two weeks ago I switched back to my Zebralight SC60 cool white on a Nitecore headband (light sits on top of my head.) On the 140 lumens setting the sc60 seems brighter than the H51w on max (rated at 172 lumens.) The H51w is more comfortable to wear though, which is why I want to stick with this type of headlamp (small, lightweight, & rides on forehead.) I use a Nite Ize headband with the H51w which is very comfortable & keeps the light from bouncing.

    So again, does anyone else have the impression that neutral white lights seem dim compared to cool white lights that have the same amount of lumens & a similar beam profile?

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I think there's a lot of different things going on here. I will try to address each of them in turn.

    First of all, it has been my experience that you are doing yourself a great disservice by trying to use a head lamp not in total darkness. I don't know if you are, but you said you go running before sun up so I assume it gets light at some point during your run. I have always found that a little bit of daylight (even a VERY little bit) makes my lights appear to perform very differently. I prefer to run in either total darkness where my lights perform very well, or in enough daylight that I don't need a light. When I do get caught doing an adventure race that spans day and night, I always find dawn and twilight the hardest times to regulate my light situation. I'm just throwing this out there because it's something I've noticed although I really don't have an explanation (or a solution).

    Second: You're not comparing apples to apples. You asked about lights that have the "same amount of lumens & a similar beam profile" but they do not have the same beam profile. The H51w and the SC60 have the same emitter but the SC60 has a larger reflector. This will always result in a tighter beam, and the perception of increased brightness. I'm not saying this is the whole reason for what you are experiencing (as you will see below) but I believe it could be part of it.

    Now, if we do compare apples to apples (I have both the H51 and H51w) The H51 does seem noticeably brighter, even when on comparable levels. But again, I believe there are some faulty perceptions that may cause us to think that the H51 is better at lighting up the trail. Let me explain:

    When you're running on a trail, you're looking primarily at objects that are various shades of browns and greens. When you shine a cool light in front of you, the contrast between the areas that are illuminated by your light and those that are not is greater than the contrast would be with a warmer tinted light. This creates the perception that the light is brighter. In fact, you don't actually want a bunch of cool light reflected back to your eye. You want the color of whatever the object is that you are illuminating to be reflected back to your eye. The problem is that when this happens, you don't notice as dramatic an increase in contrast between light and dark as you do with a cool light so your brain thinks that you're not seeing as much light. You see, you brain knows what color it expects things to be, so when it sees them appear in those colors, there's nothing surprising. But when something appears with a bluish tint caused by a cool light reflecting off of it, your brain immediately recognizes that something is different from normal and that difference registers a larger magnitude. Sorry if this is a poor explanation but it's the best I can do.

    Now I'll talk about something else I've noticed regarding the H 5x series lights and trail running. The beam pattern of the H51/H51w is actually a little too tight for trail running. The problem is that I naturally adjust the hot spot such that it is right in the middle of my vision, where I'm looking most of the time. I imagine this is what most people do. What I noticed though is that because I'm staring right at the hot spot, my pupils tend to contract because there is a ton of light bouncing back in from one place, similar to looking at the Sun. When you pupils are contracted like this, your eyes tend to shut out what is being illuminated by the spill in your periphery. It's kind of like when people use video cameras to do beam shots of lights. When they first turn the light on, the sensor reacts by limiting the amount of light it lets in because the hot spot is so bright so all you see on your screen is a round circle of light in the middle when you know very well that there are several lumens of spill. To test this theory, I put some commonly used diffuser film (dc-fix) on my headlamps. I expected that the perceived brightness of the hot spot to drop because the hot spot was diffused but what I discovered was actually the opposite. Because there was no super bright hot spot, my eyes did not try to adjust as much, and everything appeared brighter. There was no noticeable loss of brightness in the center of my vision but everything in my periphery became brighter. I could now see the entire width of the trail illuminated evenly and my eye was more aware of what was happening at my feet, out in front of the hot spot, and on either side of the trail. I did one light first and took both out on the trail. I ran with both for part of the run but I quickly became annoyed with the un-modified light because I felt like I had tunnel vision. I ended up completing the run with the diffused light on my head and the other in my pocket. When I got home, the first thing I did was cut out another piece of dc-fix and stick it on my other Zebra.

    The long and short of it is, there are probably several things contributing to the perception that the cool light is better at lighting up the trail. I think if you look critically however, you can see why some of those might be misconceptions. Also, try some diffuser film. I know you're hesitant to lose some throw, but in practice it makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I agree with the above post regarding diffusing a headlamp beam as generally improving things as long as it throws as far as you need it to. Throwing a diffused beam rather than a spot beam (interesting use of the word throw I know) works better IMO. It's only if it's diffused so much that it doesn't light up the area ahead of you enough that it's a problem.

    I've somewhat diffused the spot beam on my headlamp but I also have a pure flood mode and there is a big difference between the two. I wouldn't/couldn't be running very fast using the pure flood mode but the diffused spot mode would be great.

    Regarding the neutral/warm thing. I think it's trying a little too hard to like neutral/warm if you have to argue with your brain First of all most lights that offer cold/neutral/warm do put out less lumens when you choose neutral or warm. The other (probably greater) issue is the lack of contrast. That's why I don't get the neutral/warm thing for the most part.

    I relax in my house with incan as does everyone else but I work under cold white lights and when I'm outside I'm in the bright, white sunlight for most of the things I do. I'm not generally as active in the warm light at sunset even though it's pretty to look at.

    I think the solution is just what you've figured out...go back to the cold white light that you prefer.
    Last edited by gcbryan; 06-20-2011 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    WOW GeoBruin, I needed to hear from someone with experience, and you delivered. What you have said makes perfect sense. I already knew about tunnel vision, and am getting tunnel vision quite a bit with this light (more so than with the sc60 though.) But, what I didn't understand or consider is that because the colors are rendered better with the neutral tint things seem darker - the browns are brown, the greens are green, etc...which must be making things look darker. When I use my sc60 or even my sc31 on my head things are lighter in color or "washed out." This must be why I'm perceiving those lights to be brighter since more light is bouncing off of surfaces that normally shouldn't bounce much light off of.

    It's very dark when I hit the road (4:30 CDT,) and I'm usually done by 5:30. The sky lights up a little during my run, and by the time I'm out of the woods I no longer need a light. So, ambient light does contribute to my problem towards the end of my run, and I agree with you that some dc-fix film could solve the problem. Where did you get it? Also, thanks for the help.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by gcbryan View Post
    I think the solution is just what you've figured out...go back to the cold white light that you prefer.
    I think you may be right. I have been trying a little too hard to like neutral tint. I have to admit though I love my ZL H501w (great for close up work & reading, and very easy on the eyes,) but for outside things like running in the dark I'm finding myself back-peddling towards cool white again.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I think one of the problems that people sometimes have with cool bright and the washed out look is just that they have the light on too bright a setting.

    My headlamp has infinitely brightness adjustment (ramping style) so I put it on low and then raise the brightness level to just the right level for present circumstances. Things don't look so washed out if you do that. Not a colorful as they would with a warm emitter but that's because the emitter is coloring them

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman5 View Post
    WOW GeoBruin, I needed to hear from someone with experience, and you delivered. What you have said makes perfect sense. I already knew about tunnel vision, and am getting tunnel vision quite a bit with this light (more so than with the sc60 though.) But, what I didn't understand or consider is that because the colors are rendered better with the neutral tint things seem darker - the browns are brown, the greens are green, etc...which must be making things look darker. When I use my sc60 or even my sc31 on my head things are lighter in color or "washed out." This must be why I'm perceiving those lights to be brighter since more light is bouncing off of surfaces that normally shouldn't bounce much light off of.

    It's very dark when I hit the road (4:30 CDT,) and I'm usually done by 5:30. The sky lights up a little during my run, and by the time I'm out of the woods I no longer need a light. So, ambient light does contribute to my problem towards the end of my run, and I agree with you that some dc-fix film could solve the problem. Where did you get it? Also, thanks for the help.
    I believe I got the sample I have from shao.fu.tzer in the CPF MarketPlace.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Consider the ZL H51Fw or as noted above use some frosted film on the glass to diffuse the spot somewhat. The diffused lights up the surrounding area better than the side spill from the H51w and so appear brighter.
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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoBruin View Post
    Because there was no super bright hot spot, my eyes did not try to adjust as much, and everything appeared brighter. There was no noticeable loss of brightness in the center of my vision but everything in my periphery became brighter. I could now see the entire width of the trail illuminated evenly and my eye was more aware of what was happening at my feet, out in front of the hot spot, and on either side of the trail. I did one light first and took both out on the trail. I ran with both for part of the run but I quickly became annoyed with the un-modified light because I felt like I had tunnel vision. I ended up completing the run with the diffused light on my head and the other in my pocket. When I got home, the first thing I did was cut out another piece of dc-fix and stick it on my other Zebra.
    I can totally relate. For some reason I'm sensitive to this effect...I swear I can feel my iris cranking open and cranking shut...if I need to move my eyes around with the traditional spot-spill beam, my eyes feel tired quickly. Thus my addiction to "featureless" wide-beam flood lights.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    If you are prepared and able to spend the $$$ a custom "spike" headlamp from ahorton here on CPFM will have a lot of extra "oomph" in flood beam mode (2 x XP-Gs with flood optics) to cover the transition from dark to dawn. But it is bigger and heavier as well as more expensive

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I have a new ZL H51 cool white on the way. Ordered it yesterday.
    I went running this morning again, but this time I put both the ZL SC60 (cool white) and the H51w on the same nitecore headband (prolly looked a little goofy, but no one saw me,) and again the SC60 on the 140 lumen setting looked A LOT brighter than the SC51w on max (172 lumens.) The beam on the SC51w just seemed to be too brown in color to be very bright. To me both reflectors on these two lights look to be identical in size & shape with practically the same beam profile (spot vs. flood.) I guess I'm learning the hard way ($$) that I like cool white better for running.

    Thanks again geobruin for the info regarding the dc-fix film. I'll try it out.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Scotch "Magic" Tape also works and is more available.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Another alternative I didn't mention that I have been considering myself is the Spark ST6-460NW. It's got an XML and puts out 300 lumens on high (460 on "boost" for 5 minutes) and it comes with a frosted diffuser lens. It runs on an 18650 so it's obviously heavier than the ZL but it has a built in top strap that might prevent it from bouncing.

    I guess its that or just wait for the H502w from Zebralight.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoBruin View Post
    Another alternative I didn't mention that I have been considering myself is the Spark ST6-460NW.

    I guess its that or just wait for the H502w from Zebralight.
    I've considered the Spark too, but seems like I read somewhere that because of the design it would not be good for running. I think the head bounces too much which also creates a problem with keeping it aimed. Seems like I read that the light, when bounced around, will aim up then down & on & on. I don't know where I read that though.

    I'm extremely excited about the new ZL H502 as I love my H502w. Hope it's bright enough to go trail running.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I tried my H501w for trail running, and it didn't work so well. I found that because of the wide flood, areas just in front of me were well lit, but areas further out (>3m/10ft) were much more dimly lit. I just wasn't getting the information I needed on what obstacles were coming up.

    I thought about putting the 501 on a belt, and carrying another light, but I never got around to it.

    Ted

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Yeah, the H501w doesn't work for trail running at all...too dim & too floody. It is, however, the best light ever for close up work & reading. I am hoping that the new H502 with the XML LED in it will be bright enough to take trail running. I'm doubtful simply because it will be pure flood like the H501, but maybe it'll be bright enough.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    I see your point that maybe more brightness will make a difference...based on my experience, you could have 1,000 lumens out the front and it still wouldn't work. The bright light close in adapted my eyes to that brightness, so looking further out everything was too dark. Put another way, the lamp just isn't putting the light where you need it. Completely agree with you it's a great light for close up work, but for peering down a trail, I couldn't make it work, for the reasons you mentioned. I'd be curious if somehow the increased output of the 502 will make it happen.

    Ted

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Making the output greater would only help by extending the illuminated area marginally. If it almost works now maybe it will work with the new light. If it throws no where near enough then the new light isn't going to work.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Yeah...I just worry that the additional output, if it's in the same beam shape, is just going to make my pupils restrict even more. It would be ironic if more lumens made the situation worse!

    Ted

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    It generally does at night. I have a headlamp with infinite brightness adjustment (ramping) which I like but the one thing that annoys me is that it always starts on high.

    So at night even though I'll generally set it closer to the lowest setting I always have to look at the glare from high first!

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Update -- I received the Zebralight H51 cool white version Friday, and have taken it running with me every morning. Comparing it to my ZL H51w neutal white version, the cool white version is noticeably brighter. It's not a big difference indoors, but there seems to be a bigger difference outdoors (for reasons discussed above with GeoBruin.) The neutral white H51w is much nicer looking indoors, but the cool white H51 is much better (IMO) & more useful outdoors for trail running & seems brighter in every way (spot & especially spill.)

    I now clearly see that for indoors I prefer neutral white, but for outdoors I prefer cool white for the perceived brightness. Even in my backyard this morning the neutral white light just seems dull compared to the cool white when lighting things up. I don't think I'll be buying very many more neutral white lights after this experience since I use my lights outside more often.

    I know there are a lot of die-hard neutral fans out there, and I understand it. I now recognize that throughout my day I'm mostly using pure white or cool white lights to light up my office and my home. It's only at night while relaxing & watching TV that I prefer my neutral white lamps to be on. My lamps are similar in color to the neutral white color of the H51w. They are dimmer lights, and perfect for when I use them. Looks like I'm a bigger fan of cool white lights for most things though, but it's nice to have both.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    By any chance, have you had a chance to compare H51 with H502 for running? I'm choosing between the two at this point, but attracted by the potential versatility of dc-fix on h51 when needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman5 View Post
    Update -- I received the Zebralight H51 cool white version Friday, and have taken it running with me every morning. Comparing it to my ZL H51w neutal white version, the cool white version is noticeably brighter. It's not a big difference indoors, but there seems to be a bigger difference outdoors (for reasons discussed above with GeoBruin.) The neutral white H51w is much nicer looking indoors, but the cool white H51 is much better (IMO) & more useful outdoors for trail running & seems brighter in every way (spot & especially spill.)

    I now clearly see that for indoors I prefer neutral white, but for outdoors I prefer cool white for the perceived brightness. Even in my backyard this morning the neutral white light just seems dull compared to the cool white when lighting things up. I don't think I'll be buying very many more neutral white lights after this experience since I use my lights outside more often.

    I know there are a lot of die-hard neutral fans out there, and I understand it. I now recognize that throughout my day I'm mostly using pure white or cool white lights to light up my office and my home. It's only at night while relaxing & watching TV that I prefer my neutral white lamps to be on. My lamps are similar in color to the neutral white color of the H51w. They are dimmer lights, and perfect for when I use them. Looks like I'm a bigger fan of cool white lights for most things though, but it's nice to have both.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by carbonita View Post
    By any chance, have you had a chance to compare H51 with H502 for running? I'm choosing between the two at this point, but attracted by the potential versatility of dc-fix on h51 when needed.
    Not yet. I'm waiting on the H502w, and am not planning on using it as a running light. I'm sure I will try it out on the trail though. I prefer a headlight with some throw when in the woods running on trails. My favorite is my H600 for its run times and output. My favorite AA trail running light is still the H51. It works ok with diffuser material on it, but I prefer it more without it. On running trails I need more throw so I can see far enough ahead. In the summer I need the throw more for spotting spider webs (a face-full of spider webs sucks.)

    I have an H501w (pure flood,) and feel that it is not bright enough & doesn't throw well enough for trail running. It works good on the streets though, but still needs to be brighter. The H501w is, however, my favorite general use headlight...I love pure flood. I use it more than any other headlight for around the campsite & around the house, and am looking forward to the upgraded H502w (when it comes out.)
    Last edited by Outdoorsman5; 07-23-2012 at 04:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman5 View Post
    Update -- I received the Zebralight H51 cool white version Friday, and have taken it running with me every morning. Comparing it to my ZL H51w neutal white version, the cool white version is noticeably brighter. It's not a big difference indoors, but there seems to be a bigger difference outdoors (for reasons discussed above with GeoBruin.) The neutral white H51w is much nicer looking indoors, but the cool white H51 is much better (IMO) & more useful outdoors for trail running & seems brighter in every way (spot & especially spill.)

    I now clearly see that for indoors I prefer neutral white, but for outdoors I prefer cool white for the perceived brightness. Even in my backyard this morning the neutral white light just seems dull compared to the cool white when lighting things up. I don't think I'll be buying very many more neutral white lights after this experience since I use my lights outside more often.

    I know there are a lot of die-hard neutral fans out there, and I understand it. I now recognize that throughout my day I'm mostly using pure white or cool white lights to light up my office and my home. It's only at night while relaxing & watching TV that I prefer my neutral white lamps to be on. My lamps are similar in color to the neutral white color of the H51w. They are dimmer lights, and perfect for when I use them. Looks like I'm a bigger fan of cool white lights for most things though, but it's nice to have both.
    I am surprised you can distinguish given the relatively low % of lumens between them. For me it has got to be a good % higher before in actual use I could tell. Maybe it is a the tint that makes one light look noticeably brighter than the actual lumens? Heck if I know.
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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woods Walker View Post
    I am surprised you can distinguish given the relatively low % of lumens between them. For me it has got to be a good % higher before in actual use I could tell. Maybe it is a the tint that makes one light look noticeably brighter than the actual lumens? Heck if I know.
    I have an H51w and a Quark AA2 S2, which are supposed to be nearly equal in lumen output. The Quark is noticeably brighter than the H51W in all respects. I sincerely doubt I can see a 5 lumen difference that well. Just guessing, it seems more like about 50 lumens or so brighter.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoBruin View Post
    I think there's a lot of different things going on here. I will try to address each of them in turn. First of all, it has been my experience that you are doing yourself a great disservice by trying to use a head lamp not in total darkness. I don't know if you are, but you said you go running before sun up so I assume it gets light at some point during your run. I have always found that a little bit of daylight (even a VERY little bit) makes my lights appear to perform very differently. I prefer to run in either total darkness where my lights perform very well, or in enough daylight that I don't need a light. When I do get caught doing an adventure race that spans day and night, I always find dawn and twilight the hardest times to regulate my light situation. I'm just throwing this out there because it's something I've noticed although I really don't have an explanation (or a solution).
    I am not sure what you're saying the OP should be doing? Plan living activities around the lights that he owns or simply get something that fits better? My neutral light has always seemed dimmer in appearance compared to cool lights at equivalent lumen levels. No idea as to why but it just is.
    When you're running on a trail, you're looking primarily at objects that are various shades of browns and greens. When you shine a cool light in front of you, the contrast between the areas that are illuminated by your light and those that are not is greater than the contrast would be with a warmer tinted light. This creates the perception that the light is brighter. In fact, you don't actually want a bunch of cool light reflected back to your eye. You want the color of whatever the object is that you are illuminating to be reflected back to your eye.
    That may be what you want...

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by beamis View Post
    I have an H51w and a Quark AA2 S2, which are supposed to be nearly equal in lumen output. The Quark is noticeably brighter than the H51W in all respects. I sincerely doubt I can see a 5 lumen difference that well. Just guessing, it seems more like about 50 lumens or so brighter.
    I think your eye meter is a bit off - I think the difference is going to be more like 75 lumens.

    I have a QAA2X in NW that I use with a 1xAA tube, it is rated at 107 lm on high (max is the same) and I've just tested it's high against my H51w's 172 lm max using my DSLR light meter (both lights ceiling bounced in a small bathroom, light metered off a piece of paper on the floor). The Quark is a hair brighter, both are on an Eneloop. I also have the QAA2 S2, and with 2 batts, there's no point in testing it - it's a slaughter. You're probably looking at 105 vs 180.

    Someone is fibbing big time here.... I always heard FourSevens is conservative with its specs, but sheesh, can it explain that much of a difference?
    Last edited by reppans; 07-30-2012 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by reppans View Post
    Someone is fibbing big time here....
    I kind of suspect so.

    There is a noticeable difference between my SC51 or H51 vs my SC51w. There is also a big difference between my Quark AA2 R4 neutral and the sc51w, guessing I'd say about 50 lumens. It wouldn't surprise me if my sc51w was in the low-ish 100's. This is when using eneloops.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* srfreddy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by bbb74 View Post
    I kind of suspect so.

    There is a noticeable difference between my SC51 or H51 vs my SC51w. There is also a big difference between my Quark AA2 R4 neutral and the sc51w, guessing I'd say about 50 lumens. It wouldn't surprise me if my sc51w was in the low-ish 100's. This is when using eneloops.
    I'd look at selfbuilt's reviews a bit harder if you're saying that... the SC51 is 200 lumens, beamshots show the cool and neutral variants to be roughly comparable. R4 neutral bins are common for the XPG, R5 is common for cool. I doubt that the difference between R5 and R4 is 100%.

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    Default Re: Zebralight H51w is too dim. Is the H51 cool white better for trail running?

    Quote Originally Posted by srfreddy View Post
    I'd look at selfbuilt's reviews a bit harder if you're saying that... the SC51 is 200 lumens, beamshots show the cool and neutral variants to be roughly comparable. R4 neutral bins are common for the XPG, R5 is common for cool. I doubt that the difference between R5 and R4 is 100%.
    All I can say is with the same batteries, using ceiling bounce there is a noticeable difference between SC51 and SC51w. It would have to be much more than 7% otherwise I doubt I'd notice it (and note even zebralight don't claim the difference is 7% - the drop from "200" lumens to "172" is more than 7%). And I can see a much bigger ceiling bounce difference between SC51w and Quark AA2 neutral. Of course that is comparing 1xAA to 2xAA, but a claim is a claim. It could just be my light but I've seen a few people now who have doubted the output on their sc51w's.

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