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Thread: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

  1. #31
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by beerwax View Post
    isnt the lumens per watt of led pretty much good enough now. and that the issues are unit cost , heat , and aesthetics.
    heat manifests itself as unit cost and so for leds to be successful the heat has to go. i guess getting largescale financial backing does suggest that it is considered winnable.
    Efficiency and heat are intertwined. This is why efficiency really needs to be bought up to at least 150 lm/W in order to get the waste heat from a 150 watt incandescent replacement manageable.

    today i am thinking the aesthetics are the achillies heel. an intense point source lends itself to torches, not general lighting. so there will always be unit cost and efficiency loss associated with softening that intensity.
    this is where oleds or some of the other technology has a chance.
    Remote phosphor is the answer here. You put the blue LEDs inside the globe, coat the globe with phosphor, and you have diffused light without a heavy efficiency penalty.

    there are political forces at play too. it is not totally wacko to believe that , given their negligable unit cost , incans would have dominated forever. but politics has been applied. if led unit costs can match or get close to cfl then politics can play the mercury card and cfl is gone.

    for general lighting, running costs are not everything. anything that has cfl or better efficiency is probably good enough . certainly once you are little bit better than cfl natural limits mean you cant suddenly make something that uses less than half the power.
    The reason why LEDs are being pushed, besides the mercury issue of CFLs, is because we're nearing capacity of our grid/generating capacity. It's far easier to replace inefficient lighting than to beef up the grid, or even worse, build new power plants. I'm not really sure incans would have dominated forever even in the absense of this factor. The unit cost is low, but try brightly lighting, say, a kitchen with incans. You're talking 500 to 1000 watts, compared to something like 4 32 watt linear tubes. That translates into an enormous expense in electricity, plus added air conditioning bills. Besides that, let's say you have 10 bulbs with an average life of 1000 hours. On average then you'll have one lamp burning out every 100 hours. If you run the lights in the kitchen 6 hours a day, you're replacing one lamp about every 2 weeks. This is a royal PITA. On the flip side, I put new tubes in the 4x32W fixture in the kitchen in 2001. I finally changed them out last year. 3 of the 4 were still lighting, so I kept them for utility duty since I wanted to start off with all new fresh tubes. I'm home all the time. The kitchen light is on at least 10 hours most days. I hate to think how many incandescents I would have went through in that time, not to mention the cost of the electricity. Same thing with my workshop. Another reason I went to linear tubes 25 years ago over incandescents was to have a more natural, closer to sunlight, color temperature. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. No, as flourescent and later LED technology improved, it was inevitable it would eventually go from commercial to home use. Remember that industry largely abandoned incandescents after WWII, long before any energy or grid crisis. There were many compelling reasons, most of which are somewhat applicable to residential lighting as well.

    edit : have i missed something with electric cars . is there a way to charge them in under 5 minutes ?
    In theory some new battery technology can charge in 5 minutes. In practice as range increases the need for fast charging becomes less and less. If your vehicle has a range of 150 miles, and the longest trip you make 99% of the time is 100 miles (this matches the driving patterns of nearly everyone), then overnight home charging is sufficient. We can probably do 300+ miles at this point, effectively making the fast recharge issue moot. Nevertheless, we are working on charging stations where you can charge in 30 minutes, about the same amount of time you might spend at a once every few hours rest stop. Anyway, there's a great thread on EVs over at CPF Green. No need to discuss them further here.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    I believe there are pill sized plasma bulbs with 140lm per watt efficency, And I believe that it goes plenty bright before reaching it's limits as it outshines an street lamp with no problem.

  3. #33

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by yliu View Post
    I believe there are pill sized plasma bulbs with 140lm per watt efficency, And I believe that it goes plenty bright before reaching it's limits as it outshines an street lamp with no problem.
    There must be some reason why LEDs are being used in street lamps instead of these bulbs....
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  4. #34

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    ............
    Last edited by beerwax; 07-04-2011 at 05:13 PM.

  5. #35

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Yes that is for the most part why LEDs are making it into stoplights for sure now and streetlights also but as the efficiency improves to the point of matching or beating current low pressure sodium and metal hydride lamps then both longevity and energy savings will add to the mix. We don't have LED streetlights here yet but we do have LEDs in stoplights in places and it is not easy to tell which ones but typically they more richer colors.
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  6. #36

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    I think LED as a lighting source will have a much longer history , As we see , it is still very new for normal family , and it is not widely applicated here and there,even many goverment announce to use LED lightings .

    LED is saving energy and protecting environment , i personally hope we can popularize the led lighting . Make our earth more safe!

  7. #37
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    I guess the plasma light bulbs. Try to find more information about it.

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  8. #38
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Excuse me for such the newb question; what physical properties limit LEDs from getting brighter and more powerful?

  9. #39

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by ebow86 View Post
    Do we have any ideas on what hypothetically could replace the LED in the future? I know LED technology isn't that old, and it is getting better and better everyday but is there any technology on the horizon that could be superior to LED's in terms of efficiency and output? Any theory's on what lies down the road 25 or 50 years from now? Do you think that LED is here to stay for a long time?
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  10. #40

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    I thought oled's were already more efficient. Is that correct?

  11. #41
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by willpine View Post
    I thought oled's were already more efficient. Is that correct?
    OLED technology is used in displays for TV and mobile devices. I've never heard of OLED used as source of illumination.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by yliu View Post
    OLED technology is used in displays for TV and mobile devices. I've never heard of OLED used as source of illumination.
    I posted this video once before in a similar thread but it was quite some time ago and I forget where. In any event, I think it may address your question about OLED as a lighting technology.



    Also: http://www.treehugger.com/clean-tech...y-philips.html

  13. #43

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Just curious about this plasma technology. What is needed to drive the LEP "bulb" as far as voltage Vf, current, or Dc requirements ? does it use a driver like the led uses ? A special RF transformer ? Will one be able to replace the led with the LEP as a direct swap? Cannot seem to find any powering requirements anywhere.
    If it is anything like a HID with a transformer/black box thingy thetered to it, them I am definitely not interested regardless of the lumen/watt figure.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quantum light cells that slow light down to a crawl, and re-release it 6-12 hours later.

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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by EZO View Post
    I posted this video once before in a similar thread but it was quite some time ago and I forget where. In any event, I think it may address your question about OLED as a lighting technology.



    Also: http://www.treehugger.com/clean-tech...y-philips.html
    Cool! Never knew that, I can imagine a whole ceiling covered by this OLED layer giving a very nice diffused light!

    Although it doesn't seem suitable for directed lighting like car headlamps or flashlights.

    One of its drawbacks is, I think, is that it does not pack enough lumens in a small space.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by yliu View Post
    Cool! Never knew that, I can imagine a whole ceiling covered by this OLED layer giving a very nice diffused light!

    Although it doesn't seem suitable for directed lighting like car headlamps or flashlights.

    One of its drawbacks is, I think, is that it does not pack enough lumens in a small space.
    Your observations are correct but keep in mind that OLED is a young technology and it is improving rapidly. The first ones were not bright enough for practical lighting. Now Phillips has introduced the first OLED panel to hit the "functional lighting" barrier as they call it with brightness of 115 lm. Their new panels have luminance of 4,000 cd/m2, the color temperature is 3,250K and the CRI is over 90. The panel's lifetime is 10,000h. The problem at this point is efficiency, which needs to improve dramatically for OLED to become practical. Then again, in the early 1960s LEDs were only bright enough to be used as indicator lamps, they only came in red and they were very expensive. It is easy to forget that here in 2012 and I suspect the same will eventually be true of OLED lighting some years from now.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by videoman View Post
    Just curious about this plasma technology. What is needed to drive the LEP "bulb" as far as voltage Vf, current, or Dc requirements ? does it use a driver like the led uses ? A special RF transformer ? Will one be able to replace the led with the LEP as a direct swap? Cannot seem to find any powering requirements anywhere.
    If it is anything like a HID with a transformer/black box thingy thetered to it, them I am definitely not interested regardless of the lumen/watt figure.
    I am not an expert in this, but after reading some articles.

    Plasma bulbs seem to have some major flaws to be worked out. Like it requires a lot of power to light up a plasma bulb, short life, lot of heat, and that although the bulb is not big it needs to be powered by radio frequency generators of some sort which also took up plenty of space.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Isn't plasma older technology that generates a lot of heat?
    It does seem OLED is being built up as the next thing after LED, for lighting (in addition to signage).

  19. #49

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Next generation HID will replace LED

  20. #50
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    Default

    I think maybe white laser will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn7 View Post
    I think maybe white laser will.
    Does it exist?

  22. #52
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source


  23. #53
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    I dont know but the video was a farce.

    It looked like they took a cheap Amazon cree aspheric light and compawed it to this huge spot light the size of my Kicker Subwoofer.
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  24. #54
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    The real concern with this LEP "technology" is that you have a microwave antenna pumping whatever amount of power into the puck which directs the energy into the fused quartz tube to heat the mixture. That is inherently more complicated and potentially dangerous than current lighting technology. It posses the dangers of HID lamps with the dangers of high powered RF.

    It's an interesting idea but until it can be scaled down I don't see it being a viable alternative to LEDs.
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    According to this essay from digikey, the absolute highest efficiency theoretical light source would be a perfect monochromatic source at 555 nm, and would be 686 lm/W. Of course such a source would have a color rendering index of about zero. The same article says the best one can theoretically do with a blue LED with phosphors is 263 lumens/Watt, which is being approached by Cree in the lab (231 lm/W in May 2011). Although the Digikey article is slightly dated, still interesting reading as to the challenges for LED makers to approach the theoretical limits.

    http://www.digikey.com/us/en/techzon...provement.html

  26. #56
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    It's impossible to say at this point. Plasma bulbs, such as LEP, HID, and fluorescent, all have the advantage of emitting light in all directions at once, whereas LEDs emit light in only a hemisphere. But LEDs are so small they can easily be arrayed to compensate for their deficiencies. Also, with research-grade LEDs achieving real-world efficiencies of 95%, there isn't much room for improvement anyway. I suspect whatever replaces current LEDs will simply improve on the spectral quality of the light, not on the method of operation.

  27. #57

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by ebow86 View Post
    I don't think plamsa will be replacing LED's anytime soon, LED technology has come too far already. When I started the post, I was thinking someone would know about some radical theoretical technology that could come in the future. Plasma is already an existing technology.
    I agree with you, Led lights have came a far long way, Future is never predictable, we can never predict the things that are going to come in future.
    Led Lights are widely used in almost every application where earlier forms of lights were used and have replaced all the earlier forms of lights to a great extent. But one can not say when will a new technology replace them, but surely this will not happen on an immediate note.

  28. #58
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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    But will any of these new technologies be able to handle the recoil of being a weaponlight?

  29. #59

    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Well, it is not more efficient, but it does offer the promise of much higher CRI:

    These organic semiconductor polymer strips could eventually replace fluorescent lighting. They have a much better quality of light, and are comparable in efficiency to current LEDs. They contain multi-walled carbon nanotubes and operate best on 80 kHz frequency current.
    http://www.gizmag.com/fipel-alternat...-lights/25287/
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...66119912004831

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    Default Re: What technology will replace LED's as most efficient light source

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Hoveland View Post
    Well, it is not more efficient, but it does offer the promise of much higher CRI:

    These organic semiconductor polymer strips could eventually replace fluorescent lighting. They have a much better quality of light, and are comparable in efficiency to current LEDs. They contain multi-walled carbon nanotubes and operate best on 80 kHz frequency current.
    http://www.gizmag.com/fipel-alternat...-lights/25287/
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...66119912004831
    I'm still not sold on the benefits of FIPEL. Pre-energy-star certs and lifespan tests (And actual figures about light quality!) I'm inclined to take a new take on EL panels with a big fistful of salt.

    And carbon nanotubes are the modern asbestos. Even the fuel cell guys are looking for ways to guarantee that the CNTs are fixed in composites.
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