Dark Sucks: Research Poll- what do you want to see?

[archer6817j]

Hi folks,

I'm getting started on my third run of lights and second "full production" run. Sales have been pretty slow and that means somehow I'm missing the mark. So, I'd like to ask what you want? Consider this a "brainstorm" session and just throw stuff out. Changes to the existing product? A new flashlight? A new lighting product? Different finish? Different material? Different battery platform? Diamonds? You name it!

As a designer, I want to make lights that you will get excited about, not just exercise my own vision, so let me know what would get you excited!

Thanks in advance,

Jason

[think2x]

High CRI would be great.
Something with bezel down DEEP pocket carry.
Whole copper light?(I saw your other post )

[houtex]

If you're just asking about ANY product, I'd like to see more C-series products. Heads, bezels, bodies and tailcaps.
Always wondered about a twisty or side clicky P60 host.

[pelotonjon]

+1 on high CRI.

[flashflood]

Jason,

Nice to meet you at the GTG last month. I was the guy who brought a Big Bruiser.

The market is pretty well saturated with good-quality medium-size cool-tint lights. To give a specific example: the Fenix TK41 looks really nice, but it's not different enough from my TK35 and TK45 to justify another $120.

The underserved parts of the market are very small lights (relative to their battery), very bright lights, and neutrals.

Again, to give specific examples:

I recently ordered a Mac's Customs XM-L EDC because it is a very small but bright 18350.

I recently ordered an ElektroLumens Big Bruiser because it's the brightest thing going.

I recently ordered neutral ThruNite Neutrons and Scorpion V2 because they're bright and neutral.

I don't need any more midsize lights. When I look at customs, the machining and finish matter, but size and function come first. I'm looking for either really small pocket rockets, or photon torpedoes.

What I'd love: a really hard-driven (3.0A+) XM-L running on 18650 that is barely bigger than the 18650 cell. The closest thing is the ZebraLight SC600, but that is still huge. I'm talking ThruNite 1C size but with a 18650 inside. It would literally have to be a cell, tube, optic, and switch. Maybe it's a twisty to keep the length down, or maybe you get clever with QTC. I just think there would be huge demand for a tiny pocket rocket with a real battery.

[smarkum]

Hi Jason, I too would be intersted in smaller offerings. . . and I see that Trits sell lights . . . The midrange is covered for me too.

[mvyrmnd]

+2 High CRI, or warm XM-L
18350 sized.

There are a million 18650 sized lights out there, it's very hard to introduce a new product unless it has a serious point of difference. 18350 lights are still comparatively rare. I won't buy anything with a CCT higher than 4500K. I haven't bought any mass-produced light in over a year because of this. I really love the 90 CRI 7A3 XP-G, but one's not quite powerful enough for me.

I'd love a 18350 driven triple High CRI XP-G, with infinitely variable brightness. 0.1 lumen min, 500 lumen max. Ti or Stainless Steel or bare Al. Coatings wear off. Bare metal can be polished. Minimalist design. Forward clicky. No flashy modes.

You could even make a battery extender to allow for 18650 use for those who want it.

[sassaquin]

Having followed Dark Sucks since its inception, I appreciate the craftmanship and quality in your lights, but cannot consider buying one as they are just too darn big for my liking. Something around four inches would be ideal using a primary CR123 as some people, for safety reasons, do not like using rechargeable lithium batteries.

High CRI is a plus.

Please do not take this wrong, but a $200 light should come with a pocket clip without an additional charge.

Hopefully, you can make some positive changes and get sales rolling along. Good luck and
if you make a single cell CR123 light, I'm in.

[Zeruel]

I would be excited wtih:
- Slim AA light (14500 enabled of course) or slim 18650 light (2xCR123 enabled) for edc
- Design is key and can also be very subjective. But I would prefer something minimal.
- Neutral XM-L (4500K - 5000K preferred)
- Forward clicky
- Deep pocket clip (screwed on)
- Simple UI, either Low/High or variable selection feature (no blinky modes if not hidden)
- Al should be type III ano or Ti (satin or bb, not mirror polished)
- Ability to run on high for a good duration without burning your fingers (a challenge for Ti, but it's been done before)
- Loooooong runtime in low mode is preferred
- Quality light engine with easy emitter upgrading if possible
- Trit option is a plus

[bigchelis]

I agree with most. If it's EDC type it's gotta be streamlined as much as possible.

We all want tough lights, but don't want to carry tanks in the pocket.

The IMR 18340 and IMR 14500 are perfect examples of pocket rocket type/based lights

Bezel about the size of Surefire L1 bezel
Body about as long as Aleph CR123 body with the shortest McClicky taicap possible or zero tolerance twistie taicap
Pocket clip IMHO has to look like MGizmo/Vital gear type those just scream quality!

Good luck and wish you the best
Jose

[samuraishot]

I'm an e-series addict so e-series compatibility would be nice.

+1 on HCRI and smaller lights.

[MosesM]

Call me a traditionalist and even boring, but I'm not a fan of the Alpha's full-body nickel-plating and lack of knurling. No offense intended, but it reminds me of a Trustfire light. I guess my gripes come down to how "good-looking" a flashlight is, which in any case is entirely subjective and makes my opinion moot

Personally I would like to see a miniscule single AA-powered flashlight that is as bombproof as a Fenix E01, with a predictable and replaceable QTC pill for variable brightness. It's probably unnecessary for an XM-L in this light, so I guess an XP-G will do

[beerwax]

hi dark s.

im in the market for a 2 aa torch, that is designed for 2 aa. so a battery tube 17 mm or so. and that isnt black alluminium. something that is to 2 aa what a revo or a dqg is to 1 aaa.

i really like the form of my 20 year old 2 aa maglite . all the modern offerings are just so big, 20 to 23 mm and gawdy .

you would think there would be plenty of offerings out there but im coming up with nothing.


cheers

[archer6817j]

Hey all, thanks for so many responses! This is super helpful. I'm mostly collecting feedback and don't plan to "defend" my current light, but I did want to point out that I have LED choices available and explain why I chose the nickel finish...and then we can move on

First up, I posted my list of available LEDs on the sales thread last week so check it out if you haven't had a chance. This covers neutral MCE, XML and High CRI-90 XPG These are available only to CPF members and NOT through my website.

Second: the nickel finish. The main reason I chose nickel is because of it's engineering advantages (the polish is just for fun).

1. 100% coverage: I do not have to machine the surface coating away to expose bare metal for electrical contact. This exposes those surfaces to excessive wear and the potential for oxidation. This is NOT acceptable in a light that is built with long term service in mind...and removing anodize seems like a "duct tape" solution at best.
2. thermal conductivity: Anodize is a poor thermal conductor. Nickel is excellent. This means my entire light (including the body) becomes part of the thermal path and will shed far more heat through conduction to your hand than with an anodized light. This also allows me to use a solid head (no pill) because I'm mounting to a thermal conductor (nickel) instead of a thermal insulator (anodize).
3. electrical conductivity: once again, a reason to machine through the anodize layer. I'll give you "tailcap lockout" as a potential bonus feature to anodizing. However, as those machined (raw aluminum) surfaces are exposed to the environment over the years...the electrical resistance will increase as the exposed aluminum oxidizes. Of course if you never actually use the light, that will be less of an issue. Personally, I can't stand the black sludge that builds up on aluminum threads as the metal wears away. Nickel threads will stay clean, forever.

The other reason is that "everyone" else anodizes...from surefire to blahfire. That means it's good right? I disagree. Anodizing has one advantage: emissivity. However, in terms of heat transfer, this effect is minimal when compared to the heat conduction to your hand. It's more of a factor on a very large light where the head doesn't contact your hand and the surface area is high.

Don't think I'm an anodize hater. I LOVE a nice HAIII natural finish. I even have an anodizing setup in my garage. However, I can't say that it's a very good (IMHO) coating for flashlights from an engineering standpoint. I just can't see how applying a protective coating and then removing from the places that NEED a protective coating is a good idea. Anyway...

hi dark s.

im in the market for a 2 aa torch, that is designed for 2 aa. so a battery tube 17 mm or so. and that isnt black alluminium. something that is to 2 aa what a revo or a dqg is to 1 aaa.

i really like the form of my 20 year old 2 aa maglite . all the modern offerings are just so big, 20 to 23 mm and gawdy .

This is interesting, tell me more about why you like it? Size? Shape? Nostalgia?

Right now my light is designed to be the most powerful light possible in the smallest "practical" package in terms of usable battery life and the ability to run continuously on high. Everything is optimized for this goal. My intent was to make the best "mid-size" 18650 light that exists.

Now that I'm thinking about other form factors, maybe you experts can suggest the LED/battery size/drive current combination that you are looking for? Some of you have already, but I think that's a useful format to continue with. Crazy suggestions are always welcome too! Keep em coming!

[archer6817j]

I agree with most. If it's EDC type it's gotta be streamlined as much as possible.

We all want tough lights, but don't want to carry tanks in the pocket.

The IMR 18340 and IMR 14500 are perfect examples of pocket rocket type/based lights

Bezel about the size of Surefire L1 bezel
Body about as long as Aleph CR123 body with the shortest McClicky taicap possible or zero tolerance twistie taicap
Pocket clip IMHO has to look like MGizmo/Vital gear type those just scream quality!

Good luck and wish you the best
Jose

Hey bigC, thanks for stopping by

So when I think of this size light I think of Mac's EDC and Download's pocket rocket. I've been hesitant to enter this space since it seems pretty full already. Most custom builders focus on smaller light...probably because the sell well I decided to focus on the mid-size (but still pocketable) 18650 light because it seems to be ignored by other small makers and mostly served by Chinese brands. People keep saying there are a "lot" of 18650 lights out there but I'm only familiar with the ones that are mass produced. Is there anyone but Download making a smallish 18650? I'd lump in Electrolumens but that thing is huge.

If I made the head a lot smaller it couldn't handle the heat without becoming dangerously hot. Would you accept less lumens in a smaller package?

On the clip, I like the McG but I don't like the Vital Gear, that one screams "flimsy" to me No worries. Since I know you...you can tell me...are you saying you don't like my current clip? Suggestions welcome! My favorite thing about my own clip (is that fair?) is that it can be installed and removed without tools. Want to go clipless? You don't have a bunch of holes drilled in your light if you want to remove it. I'm just not a fan of the screw in clips.

[robostudent5000]

you probably need to go smaller or bigger. right now, there's not enough differentiating your light from a P60 style light which offers similar size and performance, except a P60 has the advantage in price and, more importantly, offers true customizability. even if your light is better put together and works better as a whole than a P60 Lego, it's going to be hard competing with something that owners can tailor almost exactly to their tastes at a lower price.

[archer6817j]

Robo, valid point competing on price is pretty much impossible for me. I think smaller is the most practical for me considering the limitations of my equipment.

So two ideas.

First, what would all of you think about a Lego turbohead and/or an 18530/cr123 body tube?

Second, I got some QTC that I haven't had a chance to play with yet. What about an AA or AAA light with direct drive and QTC with cool, neutral, and high CRI options?

[kramer5150]

I think your lights are great the way they are.
I wouldn't change a thing.... OK maybe an anti-roll feature built into the bezel, but the pocket clip takes care of that.

>Sound component & vendor choices for your sub-component parts
>You need mass to conduct heat. As a constant-ON type of user, I prefer heavier designs for this reason.
>Your MCE with the ledil reflector is a great setup.
>Its still small enough for pack, BOB or coat pocket carry, FAR easier to gear hump than an M6 or MAG hotwire.

Are you meeting up for the Alameda night-hike? Impressions can change dramatically when used outdoors. I think the strengths of your design will be better realized on the trails... particularly your warm tint designs.

[Chrisdm]

AA and AAA LIGHTS WITH REAL POCKET CLIPS AND NEUTRAL TINTS... And yes, i am shouting. Nobody seems to get this message. One company made a great AAA light with a nice clicky and an integrated pocket clip ( not one of those cheap clip-on clips), and it sold out quickly and now goes for 4 to 5 times its original retail value. Similarly, everybody and their dog makes a good AA clicky light, but nobody makes one with a solid pocket clip despite the numerous clever workarounds here on cpf to try and fashion decent clips to these new lacking lights... its one of the reasons the d10 is legendary, baffling nobody has been able to figure out how to include a solid pocket clip on a light destined to be carried in your pocket since! (Have you followed the comical Xeno 03 pocket clip saga? It shouldnt have to be that hard!)
What an incredible market opportunity for a capable builder.

So please, PLEASE: AA AND AAA lights with simple clickies, integrated pocket clips and neutral tints. Ill take 2 of each.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Satanta]

Well, being new to anything other than "Go down to Home Depot, grab an LED light and hopee I can see with it." I cannot give Lumens/LED colors or any such thing but what I can give is a visually impaired guys POV.

Wide light giving good DoF for about 30ft without either dark areas or brightness throwback forcing me to squint-indoors and out. Sort of like a plug-in worklight so I can walk around without banging into walls, furniture or tripping over a stick outside.

Applies to me going into old houses with boarded up windows and not walking into a hole or spider webs.

Then having enough throw so I can see a black dog 40 or 50 yards or so away from me at night or see who or what is moving around at the end of the driveway [[two and a half car length]] at night.

Keep It Simple. I need a good light not something to make me breakfast or pick up a pizza. I have a wife for that and something where I'm not going to kick myself for dropping a lot of $$ into it. I don't want cheap quality but I am not going to drop $200 into a flashlight either.-my lifestyle, even with the eyes and health, is pretty active, outdoors hiking and photographing but not being able to see a trail at night limits where and when I can go.

[mvyrmnd]

First, what would all of you think about a Lego turbohead and/or an 18530/cr123 body tube?

YES!

Your current light, with a Warm tint MC-E and the ability to use 18350/18650 by exchangeable battery tube. Yummy!

Your current clip would look great on a 18350 tube.

I prefer floody lights, so the turbo head doesn't matter to me

[beerwax]

This is interesting, tell me more about why you like it? Size? Shape? Nostalgia?

maglite 2 aa definitly not nostalgia. weak crappy beam new bulb every 10 hours.
its all size and shape. simple smooth design, definitly no bigger than it needs to be.5.75 inchs long 17.5 mm battery tube 25 mm head.
a lot of aa offerings (xeno e03 thrunite nuetron sunwayman ) are 20 to 23 mm battery tubes with lumps and bumps and ridges. a quark comes close but they are only in black and they are not sleek. theres a jetbeam 1 aa and a nitecore ez aa but they are only single aa. i recall a wolfeyes 2aa but it was only black and had a focusable beam, peak may make one but i cant tell.

so there just doesnt seem to be a sleek minimalist 2aa. there certainly is a pool of folks like me that wont go near lithium batteries. and even if we did you can fit a 14500 in a 17.5 mm tube maybe even 17 mm.

maybe its been tried and its failed, or maybe i look in the wrong places . or maybe its an oppurtunity. im fairly sure the preon revo is a big success and its sleek minimalist high performance (in a aaa and at a 50 dollar price point).

cheers

[Gregozedobe]

Second, I got some QTC that I haven't had a chance to play with yet. What about an AA or AAA light with direct drive and QTC with cool, neutral, and high CRI options?

I'd be interested in both AA and AAA lights if they were (this is my personal wish/dream list, other people please feel free to have your own):

Small diameter and length(dd QTC twisty will help) - Something like DQG tiny (AA) or Q Mini AA size would be a good target
Simple UI - start on Lo and ramp to High with zero parasitic drain (QTC)
User replaceable QTC
Less than 1 lumen on Low, with long run time on AAA, very long run time on AA
Optimised for eneloops, with primary lithiums or alkalines as viable options (I promise to only use alkalines in desperate emergencies)
Not black (too hard to find, especially in low light conditions, let alone darkness, so nickel finish would be good )
Alu (SS too heavy, Ti threads not smooth enough), maybe a copper head for heat dissipation
Lightweight (doesn't have to be indestructible, I use my lights for illuminating, not as hammers)
Smooth, Floody beam (optics seem better than reflectors and are smaller too)
High CRI (and NOT cat's piss green tint)
Able to run on high continuously without needing my hand as a heat sink (don't need huge lumens from a pocket light)
Able to tailstand (ie flat tail) If people want a magnet they can glue their own (or make it an option)
Decent deep carry clip (removable)
Smooth shape (for pocket carry without abrading my clothes)
Mild anti roll
Good knurling (important for a twisty)
Polarity protection
Glo O ring in lens
Trit Option/s
Water resistance is good enough for me, don't need water "proof".
Key ring carry for AAA (not AA).
Threads smooth but head not loose (don't want light to fall apart when being carried)
Low battery volatge warning (blinks every 30 seconds or so, or just dim down noticeably without going out totally ? )

Hell, why not just make me an AAA one as a prototype, I'll buy it off you and tell you how it goes as my EDC. It's time I had a change

Given the enthusiasm for the no longer available LF2XT there are obviously plenty of people willing to pay for a premium small light.

[archer6817j]

YES!

Your current light, with a Warm tint MC-E and the ability to use 18350/18650 by exchangeable battery tube. Yummy!

Your current clip would look great on a 18350 tube.

I prefer floody lights, so the turbo head doesn't matter to me

Hi folks. Any other interest in a Lego 18350/123 body? This is the lowest hanging fruit an I could have finished product in 2-3 weeks. Unfortunately (for you) the body tube is one of the least expensive components so the price won't go down much maybe 10 bucks or something. Here is my one prototype...fitted with an xpg high CRI @ 1.4A.



I'd you are interested, post here and I'll put some units into the production queue.

[richpalm]

Lose the ridges... looks like a... well, you know.

I like the bead blasting though.

[mvyrmnd]

Jason, I've just tried to PM you, but your mailbox is full. I'll send you an email

[sassaquin]

Hi folks. Any other interest in a Lego 18350/123 body? This is the lowest hanging fruit an I could have finished product in 2-3 weeks. Unfortunately (for you) the body tube is one of the least expensive components so the price won't go down much maybe 10 bucks or something. Here is my one prototype...fitted with an xpg high CRI @ 1.4A.



I'd you are interested, post here and I'll put some units into the production queue.

What are the dimensions of the 18350/123 light? Will light be able to use primary
123? Also, what is the finish is on the larger light, it appears brownish gold in color?
Thanks.

[smarkum]

can you add some additional pictures as well as dimensions? thanks!!

[brembo]

Size- Small EDC form factor. CR123, AA, possibly 18650 single.

Emitter- This gets a bit sticky. I think an offering here is in order, XPG for some throw and XML for flood. The thing that is a must is guaranteed tint. Be it cool or neutral or warm, the customer must KNOW what's arriving in the mail. Weird tints on lower levels is just not acceptable when laying out cash for custom jobbies.

Material- Well, AL is the most logical choice for heatsinking, machining, coatings and cost. It is not the best for durability and bling factor tho. And let's be honest, bling has it's place on high-end custom torches. For me I'd love to see a Al bodied light with a SS crenelated bezel (light crens, for headstanding with some light seeping out, nothing tactical) and a SS tailcap. The tail should have a metal button with some slots for trits already milled. Side slots for decent gauge lanyard cord or keyring.

Material finishing- HA III of course is industry standard. Some like black, some like natural. Outta be an option. Xeno is having some real success with red, blue and black on their E03 light. Folks are buying multiple lights just to have some color in their pockets (granted they are only 30 bucks a pop). Knurling is a double-edged knife sometimes. It provides grip but might eat up the pocket it rides in. Make it an option

Clip-Some people won't even look at an EDC that lacks a well thought out and executed clip. Others won't look at a light that has a clip. Make it an option.

Power-The light, if it is an AA must accept any chemistry. I won't go near an AA sized light that won't fire on a 1.2 volt alky. If it'll support a 4.2 li-ion that's icing on the cake.

Overall-I think you have this licked. The light should feel "right", tight and impervious to abuse. Think solid rod of aluminum that just happens to have a clear end when a very smooth tactile button is mashed it emits light. Haptic feedback also conveys a sense of quality. Go mash a few buttons in a premium Audi, then go mash one in an eco minded Chevy, feel the difference?

And last, we as consumers on CPF are not big-box store consumer whores. You are selling items to consumers that may very well know more about the components going into your light than you do. Any dancing around issues will be quickly and brutally pointed out. Take the time to design, proto and process the lights so the final product is a known entity. Disclose any oddball behaviors and be prepared to make anything right (within reason of course). Good customer service helps sell lights, great customer service will create a waiting list.

[archer6817j]

This is Lego-able with my current lights.

Head dia-1.2"
Body dia-1.0"
Overall length-4.25"

The gold/brown finish is my standard electroless nickel plate. The "shorty" is raw, unplated aluminum.









It will "run" on primary CR123s but the board has a low voltage warning (beacon) @3.2v to protect lithium batteries and cuts off entirely @ 2.8v. Basically I'd consider a primary 123 an "emergency" option.