Last edited by easilyled; 07-20-2011 at 01:41 PM.
In layman's terms, "theory" means an idea. However "scientific theory" is fact because it requires proof.
Just a little extra reading for entertainment and enlightenment.
I guess it's really only an issue of "was it stolen" and "did they know it". If the answers to both are "yes" then the buyer is, in fact, a criminal.
They grey area, and where you and I differ, is the "was it stolen" part. And from a legal standpoint I'm sure you are right that in this case, it isn't so far as the buyers are concerned. That I can agree with.
However, and this is just my opinion, from an moral standpoint the property being sold now is stolen. JMO!!!
"PS! If you're a real Colonel, I certainly wouldn't want to p*ss you off!"
Nope, just a "Colonel Sanders"...just a nickname I picked up back in my racing days since my last name is Sanders.
well, it would be difficult to argue theft, which is generally defined as the taking of the property of another.
i willingly sent him money. he has not deprived me of anything. he has perhaps committed fraud, but even that would be problematic since lights seem to be shipping randomly to customers.
Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し
Just wanted to touch on your point about looking for another exotic light instead- if you are in the mood for a tiny, well crafted beautiful light, Muyshondt would be an excellent choice. The Aeon is still in production, in cool and warm tints, HA and BK-HA. Aeons, Ions, and Nautili pop up in the Custom BST from time to time. And if you are inclined toward Ti, they all were offered in Ti. I believe there is a Nautilus and an Ion both in Ti up for sale now. I wish my wallet would allow me to jump on that Ion, but one of those might be perfect for you.Originally Posted by abarth_1200
Hi, thanks for the tips, I was looking at even buying one new but since I had started this thread and sold a few lights to build up enough money to purchase one I have blown it on an A2 an L1 and a few E1 parts and tailcaps not to mention a few bulbs aswell, im on a bit of a Surefire high...
I have not been in contact with Rob since and will probably not until I start hearing good things about thim, there are far better lights than his to worry about.
What's the difference between a lawn mower and a bagpipe? You can tune a lawn mower.
OK... somebody has to give him the benefit of the doubt! I just received my usual Friday message from Rob on Google and ordered a Lummi Wee titanium XML. I paid via PayPal and will update when my light arrives. Shipping date promised was August 3rd. I have done business with Rob several times with no negative issues and can only base judgement on my first hand results. I will let ya all know but am hoping for the BEST as always in the past. Karl
Karl H. Riedel III. Realtor and a WHOLE lot more!
My Lights__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
I eyed that Ti Wee today too. I'm glad you bought it, maybe your purchase will be the one that spills over enough to help Rob cough up my long awaited Wee NS. I'm in agreement with Nyctophiliac and others who believe that the only way we'll have Lummi lights going forward is to, well... Go forward.
The calls for blood and boycotts only serve to put an end to Lummi Lights.
The question seems to be; "do you want Lights or Revenge?"
if lummi lights comes to an end, it will not have been because of anything posted here. it will be because the owner refuses to send products to those who have paid. if you want to continue to support a proven dishonest business, go right ahead.
but placing blame with the many dissatisfied customers is just plain ignorant.
As far as the fantasy of current sales producing cash for him to fill old orders, you are either hopelessly naive or just blowing smoke. The money paid for those old orders is gone and you will not see it again. If anything, the money from new orders will go into producing more product to sell to new customers - that is the only way for him to generate revenue out of this mess. Filling old orders will just eat up his profits from the current sales leaving nothing to generate new revenue with.
You can see this happening right now if you just care to look. He has abandoned CPF, which is the main source of his bad publicity and a public record of his fraudulent practices. He has moved into advertising elements where he has control over what is said and who says it. This allows him to keep up his facade whilst sweeping his past problems under a carpet of censorship.
Last edited by mglamb; 07-30-2011 at 11:01 AM.
BTW I have spent all the money I had saved up to buy a Lummi on a Surefire A2, L1 and a few E series parts.
I have decided not to give Rob any of my money because I dont think it will help him out of this mess, like mglamb said, he has not been on cpf for a long time, if he really cared he would have owned up.
Its a shame really, all my orders with him were fine, ironic.
What's the difference between a lawn mower and a bagpipe? You can tune a lawn mower.
I do appreciate the responses by abarth and mglamb and agree with what they said. I don't find their responses to be inherently exclusive to my position.
However, it is an indisputable fact that _some_ old orders are being filled. This has been reported on CPF from some people. It is also rather clear to me that this is the only way old orders _can_ be filled. Also, it's clear that there is insufficient probability of successful reward to be had from having the law intervene or it would have happened by now.
Rob's latest tactics are quite clever and serve to isolate him from his reputation and acts to a great extent. Whether this is to dupe and defraud more consumers or rather to pursue a positive business is an exercise left to the reader. I'm not sure where I stand on this but even if his effort is in good faith I've no reason to believe he won't fall back on his poor business and ethical practices. So, I'd have to take 'worse' out of better or worse for a long term prognosis. This remains to be seen, but his failure to come back to CPF and address his crimes is particularly galling. Without this one should assume Rob is a criminal with intent to defraud. There is no other rational or reasonable conclusion.
For everyone's sake I'd like to be proven wrong. Very much so. And so I hold out hope.
Rob is indeed "an incompetent businessman, a fraud, or both." However I rather favor the former than the latter. Also, he is a gifted artist and craftsman. Likely it's better for all that he become productive as an ethical member of society.
Taking a longer view, it is better for the economy and individuals if [honest] business is conducted than not. Thus, revenue from new sales really don't need to provide for filling old orders to be a net positive. That's a very long view, but coming from one who has long ago sent Rob money with nothing to show for it.
As to revenge. It's an acquired taste I guess. I rather enjoy life without it. Should I try to look for a generally positive outcome or press for his head on a pike when I know full well I'll have more chance of a light instead?
I suppose there's a mix of people upset. Some are being rational and mature, others seek other means to address their anger and shame... Some are frankly embarrassed to be had out as fools for sending this buffoon their money for a bag of wishes. I mean, who would do such a stupid thing? Beside me that is?
Still others I'm willing to bet don't even have a dog in this fight but rather enjoy a good rumble if they're backed by a mob while they do it.
I'm amused by the fellow with 10 posts in ~2 years of having been a member of this community having the gall to call me out as ignorant. He's entitled but I rather consider his experience in these forums and he becomes easy to discount altogether. For the record I accorded blame on no one and personal attacks reveal more about the attacker than their intended target.
I hope this clears up my position on the matter as a person who does have a dog in this fight. Thank you.
oh, the post count attack. that's original.
who has more credibility, the 2 year member who chose not to post, or the 4 month member?
I wish Rob the best as well. I am certain that he will eventually make everyone whole.
He is an outstanding artisan and it shameful that many members are maliciously bashing his products while he is making an effort to reestablish himself.
I have had no problems receiving products from Rob recently, and will continue to purchase his builds.
In conversations with Rob, I am confident that these are his intentions.
I have seen this argument by a few people lately. Can someone explain it to me, because it seems ridiculous. Maybe I'm missing something, but I doubt it. What sort of business model involves using income from products sold today to buy materials and build and ship products that were sold months ago? I have never heard of this sort of absurd method of doing business.
Besides, the theory doesn't even hold water. If a lack of funds to buy materials to build and fill those old orders is *really* the problem, where is he getting the money to buy materials and build the lights he is selling TODAY??? Lies are confusing, the truth is simple. That's a universal.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the people who are actually getting their lights around here are are the big spenders -upsetting them would be stupid on Rob's part because they have and will continue to buy many lights from him. The little guys don't seem to be getting the same respect.
Rob is limiting his line items and will eventually increase his margins in order to build his net profits to cure his problems of the past. I am surprised and saddened that the members of our community are not more understanding and so quick to give one of the most talented builders the benefit of the doubt or at the very least allow him to prove us all wrong.
Last edited by Incidentalist; 08-01-2011 at 10:25 PM.
The Jeers started in early 2009. It's past the middle of 2011. Nothing is happening "quickly" here. I'm glad I didn't order the Lummi I was planning on ordering back in 2009 when these problems erupted onto the scene. I'd still be waiting for it.Originally Posted by bf1