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Thread: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review





    From Callie's Kustoms :


    18650 Unprotected Battery
    2250mAh
    Unprotected
    10A Max Discharge
    Max Charge/Max discharge voltage 4.2/3v
    Panasonic uses "PSS Technology" in this battery. A solid solution technology that allows the high capacity of a
    standard Lithium-Ion battery and the safety of an IMR battery. This is truly a revolutionary battery!






    For testing I have the Callie's Kustoms 18650 High discharge battery , the first thing I did was to test capacity by discharging from 4.2v to 3v @ 0.5A in my Hobby charger , I did this twice , and the results are 2168mAh for the first run and 2162mAh for the second run , and those results are very close and consistent , a good sign .

    The next test was to test for discharge capability [ Amps ] , and I used 3 flashlights for this , my best XR-E R2 , my MTE SSC P7 [ long time test light ] and my XM-L T6 3 mode [ from Manafont ] , as the T6 is a serious battery vampire , and when you take a peak at the result graph you will see why .

    TFF = Trustfire Flame or second battery from left , and TFG = Trustfire Grey third from the left and CK = Callie's Kustoms .
    From the left cell 4 = Samsung 26C and cell 5 = Samsung 28A , from the left Cell 1 = Sanyo 2600 and the 3rd from the right = IMR and the black cell next to the IMR is the AW2600 .



    Wow , check out the Callie's Kustoms [ CK ] , 3.9A in the XM-L . That is simply fantastic , and it goes without saying , it has simply wiped the floor with the other batteries when it comes to power delivery [ Max Amps ] . Callie's Kustoms has delivered again , a 18650 that performs so well and gives folks an option to other IMR . If you have to have the best , the highest possible power delivery , decent capacity , you need to visit Callie's Kustoms and check out this battery , it has impressed the heck out of me .

    Id like to thank Callie's Kustoms for making this review possible .

    old4570
    Last edited by old4570; 08-19-2011 at 12:26 AM.

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* jasonck08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    I've tested the Panasonic CGR18650CH for a few months now. It's a decent mid-high current battery, but I'm not convinced of the safety aspects of it. As far as I know, its still a Lithium Cobalt cell, but probably has a hybrid cathode material, which makes higher discharge currents possible.

    "Panasonic uses "PSS Technology" in this battery. A solid solution technology that allows the high capacity of a
    standard Lithium-Ion battery and the safety of an IMR battery. This is truly a revolutionary battery!"


    This statement right here is a little bold without any sources mentioned. From my research, I don't see that Panasonic says this particular cell model is any safer than other models. Also, Panasonic recommends protecting the cell:

    "Panasonic only supplies the new PSS models with an “external” safety unit, that immediately cuts off the current flow if the current is too high, the temperature is too high or there is a short circuit thus ensuring an additional safeguard against overheating and combustion."

  3. #3

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    According to Panasonic they are "safe" or at least as safe as IMR's http://www.pohl-electronic.de/pdf/Pa...CGR18650CH.pdf Their chart pretty much sums up what they think of it.

    http://www.electronicscomponentsworl...142642011.html

  4. #4
    Flashaholic* jasonck08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Fair enough, also quite interesting that that datasheet is on another companies website is no where to be found on Panasonics site (which is where I went to look originally when I first got samples and tested these).

    Also I just noticed that these don't have a PTC!!! This is the primary form of mechanical protection in a Li-ion cell! When the cell heats up (usually in an overcurrent situation) the PTC will change phases and will temporarily shut down the cell until it cools down again and the PTC material goes back to its original phase. My guess is they decided to do without the PTC so they could pack in more energy.

    Seems a bit risky to run a cell like this with no electronic protection circuit and no PTC. Wonder what happens if its shorted out?!

  5. #5
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Treat your lights and batteries with respect ...

    Its a little like drag racing ! The faster you plan on going , the safer you need to be ..
    Last edited by old4570; 08-19-2011 at 07:41 AM.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* 45/70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    My interpretation is that cells with the nickel layer are more resistant to abuse, such as being used at high discharge rates, or over discharging. My impression is however, that this does not quite bring them to the level of safety that IMR cells offer. As for the lack of a PTC on these cells, that's news to me! Yikes!

    And just as a reminder, none of the so called "safe" Li-Ion cells are really safe, as many distributors and vendors like to call them. You can abuse LiMn (IMR) cells somewhat more than LiCo (ICR) cells, and LiFePO4 (LiFe, or IFR) cells quite a bit more, but if subjected to a high enough level of abuse, they can all vent. "Safer" would be a better description, IMO.

    Dave

  7. #7

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Let me first state I do not consider ANY battery as being inherently safe.

    Now lets test the "POOF" theory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaosGRX9BaQ

  8. #8

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    What shows them without a PTC? the linked document http://www.pohl-electronic.de/pdf/Pa...CGR18650CH.pdf definitely shows a PTC

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* jasonck08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by xxllmm4 View Post
    Let me first state I do not consider ANY battery as being inherently safe.

    Now lets test the "POOF" theory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaosGRX9BaQ
    Nice video. It looks like what most likely happened is because of the lack of a PTC, the current was not cut off at all and this allowed the cell to be destroyed when short circuited (unlike your 3100 test with a PTC). I'd be curious to see if the results are any different when its dead shorted with something of lesser resistance (e.g. a C clamp, rather than two thin wires twisted together).

    --------------

    Quote Originally Posted by CKOD View Post
    What shows them without a PTC? the linked document http://www.pohl-electronic.de/pdf/Pa...CGR18650CH.pdf definitely shows a PTC
    It's a little Panasonic trickory going on. Look at the first paragraph there is an asterix (*) symbol that says "This battery is not equipped with a PTC."

  10. #10

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    I wouldnt really call multi strand 14awg ofc wire thin. The resistance is going to be a lot less than going through a C Clamp but I do like the idea. I happen to have a big clamp that would be perfect

  11. #11

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Do you have a clamp meter that would fit around the shorting clamp/cable? :-)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    It's a little Panasonic trickory going on. Look at the first paragraph there is an asterix (*) symbol that says "This battery is not equipped with a PTC."[/QUOTE]

    Shens! Would take them a few mins to get rid of the PTC from the drawing...

  13. #13

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Will cottonpicker's USB charger play nicely with the CK cell? It's a LiCo cell right, and that means it is a ICR? If that's the case then CP's charger will work with it.
    I seem to have misplaced my occipital lobe, and as such cannot search for it. Do you see my dilemma?

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* 45/70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonck08 View Post
    It's a little Panasonic trickory going on. Look at the first paragraph there is an asterix (*) symbol that says "This battery is not equipped with a PTC."
    That is a bit odd. I thought that all Li-Ion cells from the major manufacturers had PTC devices, including LiMn and Life cells. As I understand it, some of the cheap Chinese cells do not, but most Chinese cells do. This really seems odd and I wonder if a mistake has been made in that .pdf?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxllmm4 View Post
    Now lets test the "POOF" theory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaosGRX9BaQ
    To what "POOF theory" are you referring to? I recall seeing videos of conventional LiCo cells where a similar so called "test" was performed. Nothing happened with them either. Most "incidents" occur when cells have been repeatedly abused. Then, it's not so much a question of "if" the cell will vent, but "when". As I said before, this applies to LiMn and LiFe cells, as well. They are all capable of venting under the right conditions, particularly if the cell has been abused.

    I'm not saying that Panasonic hasn't improved the safety of these cells with their new technology, I'm sure they have. The impression I get from sources other than the manufacturer though, is that these cells do not provide quite the same level of safety as LiMn.

    Again, most problems with Li-Ion cells occur with used cells that have been improperly cared for, or abused. The effects of mishandling Li-Ion cells most often is cumulative over time, and not readily apparent. For example, I would not want to carry a light with the cell you "tested" installed, in my pocket. Maybe you should do a dozen or so repeat 'tests" with that same cell? That would be an interesting extension of the "test".

    Dave
    Last edited by 45/70; 08-20-2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: brain error :-)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    I am under the distinct impression it does not matter what I do, how I "test" them or what the results are.

    I'm done with this thread.

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haMDZ...layer_embedded

    Interesting : CK and AW IMR short circuit

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    The video shows exactly what will happen when you dead short a 15C rated ( AW IMR18650 ) against a 5C rated ( Panasonic CGR18650CH ). The AW IMR will
    dump at least 3X amperage and hence runs hotter due to its higher current output capability and lower cell internal resistance.

    Here is another interesting video about a well used AW IMR18650 against a new bigger IMR26650 :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niw6or2lRAY


    AW IMR running handicapped ( 7.4V ) against A123 / LiPo / NiMH ( 9.9V vs 9.9V vs 8.4V ) :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akAAZ80JNDU



    AW IMR voltage under load against others :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJeu7NfSZE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjDG...eature=related


  18. #18
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by AW View Post
    The video shows exactly what will happen when you dead short a 15C rated ( AW IMR18650 ) against a 5C rated ( Panasonic CGR18650CH ). The AW IMR will
    dump at least 3X amperage and hence runs hotter due to its higher current output capability and lower cell internal resistance.

    Here is another interesting video about a well used AW IMR18650 against a new bigger IMR26650 :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niw6or2lRAY


    AW IMR running handicapped ( 7.4V ) against A123 / LiPo / NiMH ( 9.9V vs 9.9V vs 8.4V ) :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akAAZ80JNDU



    AW IMR voltage under load against others :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJeu7NfSZE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjDG...eature=related
    Some interesting video : but how relevant some are to flashlights ?

    Interesting never the less - hmmmm

  19. #19
    Flashaholic
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Current output capability and voltage under load characteristics are the core performance guidelines of a battery. These information are valuable to all users no matter you are
    a flashaholics or other user groups. Every different user groups have their own means to test the performance of a battery ( using a flashlight / a laser / a vaporizor / a airsoft gun /
    a motor or any other devices they are using ) but the results they are trying to look for is the same two elements.



    Quote Originally Posted by old4570 View Post
    Some interesting video : but how relevant some are to flashlights ?

    Interesting never the less - hmmmm


  20. #20
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPA4cdeyYng CK 18650

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro_suW7gMo0 IMR



    Voltage sag @ 1A CK VS my IMR ...

    Now if anyone has a brand new IMR , please take a video , 1Amp discharge !
    My IMR has had very little use , but its over 1 year old ...
    So , anyone with a fresh IMR ...

    This is very interesting .....

    And voltage sag in a well regulated light - is not that important .. Capacity is far more important ... In Direct Drive - yes it becomes important , and more so in single cell use . A few tenths of tenths here or there ????
    Last edited by old4570; 08-21-2011 at 11:58 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Try discharging with 2C and beyond and you 'll see the difference. This thread is about high discharge battery after all.

    In a regulated light it is actually more important because the more the voltage sag, the driver will draw more amperage to compensate - up to the point that the battery cannot handle the load ( LiCo - 2C ). High drain cell - up to the C rating.

    Capacity is of course important and is still the main goal for all battery manufacturers to pursue improvement.

    Getting the right kind of batteries is important. You 'll need high discharge cells for high drain applications and high capacity cells for long runtime applications.
    Last edited by AW; 08-22-2011 at 02:24 AM.


  22. #22
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Well , you cant have it each way ....

    + 1A is max for me ... [ Imax B6 ]

    And Im happy for anyone to do a controlled comparison ...

    Still , the CK has good discharge - good capacity - and looks like decent safety .

    Looks like a hat trick [ or trifecta ] to me ...

    If you dont like it , that's fine by me .. I enjoy testing stuff , and if it looks to be good , well , what can you do about that ?

    I can only do what I can do ...

    But never forget , the proof is in the pudding ...

    Please feel free to source a CK and test ... I look forward to the results ..

  23. #23
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by xxllmm4 View Post
    I am under the distinct impression it does not matter what I do, how I "test" them or what the results are.

    I'm done with this thread.
    You have a low number of posts, so it is not clear to some of us who have used and tested many of the lithium ion batteries what the motivations and reliability of new cells may be for various applications that have been promoted over the years.

    Many of us have seen a good variety of cells, from a good variety of manufacturers, and it is common to see many that are not presented accurately or in a fair manner, so your "short fuse" in response to our legitimate skepticism does not help to make your points.

    Seeing these sold by this website ( http://callieskustoms.com ), selling a diversity from t-shirts to tire balancing beads, does not immediately instill a flashlight or battery enthusiast with confidence...until reliably questioned and proven.

    There is also a practical question (in addition to safety--which does look enhanced with those PSS Panasonics over typical Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells) of how many light applications need a 10A draw to justify buying these.

    The most important thing to see however are the actual discharge graphs at various amp loads to see how they actually perform and hold voltage. Doing those dead short tests is not really telling us as much useful of information as you think it does. We are not dismissing what your showed in your Youtube videos, some of us just think it is not the whole story of giving a fair evaluation to Lithium Ion cells.

    We know Panasonic is a high quality and reliable brand, but it is better to take the time to look these up on Panasonic's website, so people can see original source information, which I did here, but it is still not complete information.

    http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...data_sheet.pdf

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* 45/70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    I don't question the quality of the CGR18650CH cells. I'm certainly not aware of any Panasonic Li-Ion cells that are "bad". I'm also certain that Panasonic has taken the time to develop this new technology to make the cell safer and, as a result, am sure that it most likely is.

    As for the safety level of these new cells compared to IMR cells, some of what I've read, again from sources other than Panasonic, is that while the nickel added to the cathode of these cells does provide an additional safety layer, the simple fact that these cells store more energy becomes a factor in and of itself. So, if something does go wrong, there is more energy to fuel the problem.

    I also agree with Lux, a dead short test really doesn't provide much useful information. I do appreciate xxllmm4 taking the time (and risk) to show what happens when one of these cells is short circuited. As I said before however, I've seen such tests done to other cells as well, but especially when "new" cells are used, it really doesn't tell you all that much. Also, I fear that such videos promote others to try attempting similar tests, warnings or not, without realizing the potential dangers involved.

    Also, as far as I know, from other postings, xxllmm4 is Callie's Kustoms, or is at least affiliated with them. Perhaps doubters are not looked upon with much respect from this outfit. Personally, as I said, I don't doubt the quality of these cells, just the claim that they are as safe as IMR cells because of what I have seen mentioned elsewhere. It is fairly new cell technology, so as is usual, not everybody's ideas and opinions are going to be correct. Unfortunately, marketing teams seem to err quite a bit in this area, so it often pays to see what other's observations and opinions are, concerning a new product.

    Dave

  25. #25

    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    FWIW, I've been using some CK 3100 protected cells in a high-power light (3A tailcap) and they have increased in capacity about 100mAh after 3 cycles. They are reading out 2940-2980 mAh now.

    I still LOVE my AWs, and use them in most of my lights (both IMR and 2900s). It's nice to see another option for high-quality cells. :

  26. #26
    Flashaholic mitro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by AW View Post
    Try discharging with 2C and beyond and you 'll see the difference. This thread is about high discharge battery after all.
    Discharging one of these @ 10A I get 1862 mAh discharged to 3v. @ 5A its 2095 mAh to 3v. Unfortunately my AW IMRs are about 2 years old now so I can't make a fair comparison.
    Last edited by mitro; 08-22-2011 at 12:12 PM.

  27. #27
    Enlightened
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    I am interested in these cells as a complement to my current IMR cells so would it be fair to say that the CK high discharge cells are proven to be good in so far as the results returned from testing conducted to date have been favourable? and based on those results wouldn't it also be fair to say that in a device requiring a cell to perform at higher than 2C discharge rate these CK cells should perform at least as well as if not better than an equivalent IMR cell and almost certainly better than a Li-ion cell not recommended for high discharge?

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    One review is not proof , but simply information that some one may find useful or not .
    It is fair to say that the cell has performed well , has decent capacity , and as for safety - some one with much deeper pockets can delve into that , I believe the cell is fine to use , Im not going to get into this . [ There are several obvious points I could make - but I wont ]

    Im impressed with this cell ...

    If the reader is impressed ? , there is only a very small number of people with this cell , and Im not aware of anyone being un impressed or un happy with the performance ...

    Anyone wanting to contribute hard data , is most welcome and wanted !

  29. #29
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Ways View Post
    I am interested in these cells as a complement to my current IMR cells so would it be fair to say that the CK high discharge cells are proven to be good in so far as the results returned from testing conducted to date have been favourable? and based on those results wouldn't it also be fair to say that in a device requiring a cell to perform at higher than 2C discharge rate these CK cells should perform at least as well as if not better than an equivalent IMR cell and almost certainly better than a Li-ion cell not recommended for high discharge?
    With what we have seen so far, the best anyone can give to your series of questions would lean favorable ONLY because they are Panasonic brand (they are not "CK" batteries). If you are trying to measure them against the IMR (assuming a quality brand of IMR) to backup the Panasonic claim, you need to see discharge tests at various amp loads. Without that being done by at least a few independent sources (not just by a retailer who is slapping a re-branding sticker and then selling them), we just cannot give you a more specific honest answer.

    Again, most of us are NOT saying they are necessarily being over-hyped or over-promoted. We are saying there just is not yet enough reliable information presented. I do not know if the RC Forums have tested these cells yet, but they have many sharp, and highly respected "tools in their forum shed." I would look there next if I was sufficiently motivated. Following that, I would do my own series of CBA-II discharge tests. I would also want to see more information from Panasonic about the recharge rate limits, and cell cycle life if routinely used at 8-10A loads. There are many factors to consider.

  30. #30
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: Callie's Kustoms 18650 High Discharge Battery Review

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    With what we have seen so far, the best anyone can give to your series of questions would lean favorable ONLY because they are Panasonic brand (they are not "CK" batteries). If you are trying to measure them against the IMR (assuming a quality brand of IMR) to backup the Panasonic claim, you need to see discharge tests at various amp loads. Without that being done by at least a few independent sources (not just by a retailer who is slapping a re-branding sticker and then selling them), we just cannot give you a more specific honest answer.

    Again, most of us are NOT saying they are necessarily being over-hyped or over-promoted. We are saying there just is not yet enough reliable information presented. I do not know if the RC Forums have tested these cells yet, but they have many sharp, and highly respected "tools in their forum shed." I would look there next if I was sufficiently motivated. Following that, I would do my own series of CBA-II discharge tests. I would also want to see more information from Panasonic about the recharge rate limits, and cell cycle life if routinely used at 8-10A loads. There are many factors to consider.
    Wow !!!!! seriously , I cant believe you went there ... ONLY because they are Panasonic brand (they are not "CK" batteries).

    Does this logic apply to everyone who slaps there brand on Panasonic cells ???? or any other cell ????

    Just how many brand names outsource , and slap there name on a battery ??? And here I thought it was accepted practice ?????

    (not just by a retailer who is slapping a re-branding sticker and then selling them) Hmmm , now if people don't buy these cells to test , how will we get independent results ??? Bit of a catch 22 ! And since there new , and only a hand full of people have them ??


    Wow , why do I feel this déjà vu !!!!

    Hopefully for the last time :

    Please test these batteries !!! With sugar on top ...
    Please - with sugar on top - report your findings !
    Please - with sugar on top - I think everyone would just love to see some facts !

    Yes , these batts are new , we need more people to play with them and provide feed back , I apologize with sugar on top , for being the ???? first ????

    And my only sage advice is not to throw stones if you live in a glass house

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