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Thread: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices such

  1. #1
    Unenlightened
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    Default Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices such

    Just thought I would let everyone know the policy from Michael at Crimson Trace. I called to inquire about the LGD-417 which are laser grips with the standard 5mw red Laser and also a .7mw IR laser, which can be used with night vision. Michael informed me that it is their internal policy that they will not sell this unit to civilians, but could not explain an answer. When I informed him that civilians could in fact purchase the same spec laser DBAL I2 with the same specs. Again he had no answer, and repeated it was an internal policy at Crimson Trace not to sell to civilians. It's to bad a company would choose to cut out a percentage of the market place over an internal policy. I am choosing to spend my dollars elsewhere unless this changes.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Good info, thanks.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    The police are civilians too.

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    Flashaholic* Klem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Such a 'noble' attempt to keep technology out of civilian hands. Unfortunately it all counts for nothing unless their competitors do the same. Don't sweat it... They won't achieve their aim, it costs them sales, and their competitors make more profit. Market forces will prevail eventually.
    Last edited by Klem; 02-16-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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    Flashaholic* AnAppleSnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    My guess is that they consider this to be a liability concern. When some nut with gen1 NVG and an IR laser goes nuts, they don't want it to be their device. Similarly, I don't build or discuss certain devices and ideas out of a sense of civic duty. I know of several people with similar ideals - they'll only share with people who can be trusted to be safe. I've had such conversations with CPF members, concerning compelling-to-build devices that should not be made due to safety reasons.

    My actions don't stop it from happening, but then that's all I can ever control.
    My biggest light-hog is my camera.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* Klem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    You hit the nail on the head, 'civic duty' and the vague definition of what that entails. If you run a business related to firearms this becomes a double-edged weapon (another pun). The interpretation of ITAR export restriction is another classic example. Vague, arguable conditions that can be interpreted with or without 'Fortress America Post-9/11' mentality glasses on.

    Here's an example. I ring up from Australia wanting to buy a battle sling from Troy, only to be told they are a restricted export and I need to fill out an end-user certificate...for a sling. So I buy one online from Blackhawk instead... Troy can sleep easy tonight knowing they are controlling pieces of cordura webbing with metal attachments on each end.

    Here's another, TNVC exhorts how it is an 'offence' to allow a non-US citizen to look through Gen 3 night vision devices. Taking it a little too far methinks. No way! Ooops, I'd better stop looking through my PVS14 then...Gotta go!...Is that the sound of Seal Team 6 helicopters approaching?

    One thing I have found as a non-US citizen, just because one outfit says no, doesn't mean everyone selling the same thing says no. I'd ring around about that Crimson Trace, eventually someone will say yes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    I come from the gun world so this makes perfect sense to me. The thinking is some "bad guy" will get NVG's and an IR Laser and be able to kill officers in the dark with no one knowing until it's too late. Parts of our government and even business community think that civilians can't be trusted. Gen 3 NVD are so far behind the times as to be a joke compared to what are elite units use. I had some Gen5 goggles from Varo (now part of ITT/Litton) back in the late 80's. They were amazing.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

    Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

    It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

    Semiman

  9. #9

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    >Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination.

    Bullshit. I'm looking for the best I can afford to control coyotes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

    Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

    It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

    Semiman
    Sorry but your logic scares me. There are tons of people who hunt with IR lasers and NV to kill hogs and the other creatures of the night and they are not killing theri fellow man. The logic of it could potentially be used by the bad people so it should be banned by use by the good is again scary.

    To update; I guess their ethics went out the window as they have jumped on the bandwagon and are selling their .7mw IR lasers to Joe citizen.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Really, you need both night vision and IR lasers for hunting. Given me a break. Why not just hunt with grenades it would be more sporting. Tons of people is probably an exaggeration and I know hunters who would not exactly call that "sporting". You just signed up and two posts ever MorePowerPlease ... makes me question your motives for being here.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Yup. Big difference between sport hunting and vermin control. I'm not going to let predators take out MY animals. And farmers can't afford to let hogs bankrupt them.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by lumen aeternum View Post
    Yup. Big difference between sport hunting and vermin control. I'm not going to let predators take out MY animals. And farmers can't afford to let hogs bankrupt them.
    I agree with you and the other predator/pest control hunters in this thread. A common misconception that many people have is that night-hunting is illegal, it is usually not. Check your local laws, it's usually open season on predators and varmints.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    I seriously doubt gangbangers are going to spend thousands of dollars on NVGs and IR lasers to shoot cops. Any criminal organization with that kind of money to spend on hardware can get anything they want already, including fully automatic weapons, grenades, heavy machineguns, and probably stolen military nightvision stuff. By definition, criminals are not bound by the law or any other regulations regarding their armaments.

    Crimson Trace acting like they are heroically standing between police officers and certain doom is laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.
    Realistically, there is no non-military, non-NASCAR, non-criminal reason to drive a vehicle with more than 4 cylinders. It could easily be argued that the only reason to own a V6 or V8 would be to evade the police, or otherwise break speed limit laws.

    Telling people that they can't have something because they don't "need" it is a dangerous "slippery slope".

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Really, you need both night vision and IR lasers for hunting. Given me a break. Why not just hunt with grenades it would be more sporting. Tons of people is probably an exaggeration and I know hunters who would not exactly call that "sporting". You just signed up and two posts ever MorePowerPlease ... makes me question your motives for being here.
    There are other reasons to kill animals than "sporting". Not all of us care what Elmer Fudd thinks.

    Focusing on logic as opposed to emotion, I think that the rancher killing property destroying predators on his property is more legitimate than someone dressed in orange shooting deer because he gets off on it.
    Last edited by MatthewSB; 02-15-2013 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Added more, didn't want to make another post

  15. #15

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

    Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

    It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

    Semiman
    Aparently you dont live near the Mexican border.


    Why Would Any American Need an AR-15? Zetas, That’s Why

    http://pjmedia.com/blog/why-would-an...tas-thats-why/


    But the real reason for the 2nd Amendment is to guarantee effective arms to bring a tyrannical government under control. And NVG and UV lasers are part of that.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewSB View Post
    Telling people that they can't have something because they don't "need" it is a dangerous "slippery slope".
    Excellent logic, sir. To give up freedom because "you don't need it" is the height of stupidity. The Founding Fathers of America had rather a lot to say about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewSB View Post
    Focusing on logic as opposed to emotion, I think that the rancher killing property destroying predators on his property is more legitimate than someone dressed in orange shooting deer because he gets off on it.
    To put it another way, a hostile force is attacking and robbing the rancher. They'll take out the rancher, too, if they have a chance. A predator eating a farmer's chickens is like a home invader stealing your posessions and looting your bank account.

    Final point: Most governments do not protect the predators in this situation whatsoever, except in England and California.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by mhpoole View Post
    Michael informed me that it is their internal policy that they will not sell this unit to civilians, but could not explain an answer.
    It's not that complicated. Someone in management made a decision, Michael has to follow it, and you have to live with it.

    When I informed him that civilians could in fact purchase the same spec laser DBAL I2 with the same specs. Again he had no answer, and repeated it was an internal policy at Crimson Trace not to sell to civilians. It's to bad a company would choose to cut out a percentage of the market place over an internal policy.
    It is a private company. They don't have to deal with you if they don't want to. They can lose as many sales as they like.

    I am choosing to spend my dollars elsewhere unless this changes.
    This is of course the adult response. Someone else will want your business.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
    But the real reason for the 2nd Amendment is to guarantee effective arms to bring a tyrannical government under control. And NVG and UV lasers are part of that.
    Oh come on, if there really was a military insurrection, do you think a few people owning NVG and IR/UV lasers is going to make any difference?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
    Aparently you dont live near the Mexican border.
    You bring up a good special case, and for those that are on the border, why not provide them special permits commensurate with the greater danger they are in? Not everyone needs the same level of protection. We don't let just anyone buy certain lasers, weapons, rocket fuel, explosives, etc. .... just because they want them.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by argleargle View Post
    A predator eating a farmer's chickens is like a home invader stealing your posessions and looting your bank account.
    Given animal predators don't shoot back, i.e. no need to stealth, I am probably going to have more success with an IR illuminator and NVG scope than I will with an IR laser, NVG combo.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    I think the short answer is to buy elsewhere.

    While there is some distant, hypothetical chance for an "in the wrong hands" scenario, the absurd cost of even Gen 3 night vision gear makes it pretty unlikely, thus the liability concern is only costing them sales (could also be a marketing thing for "agency" buyers - restricting it sends some message that this is the good stuff). A serious terrorist or criminal organization seeking to do something nefarious has the resources to get around the laws and/or sales restrictions.

    As best I can tell from what I've seen and read, none of the NV tech in production is so good as to let the user see in the dark with the ease of a cat. I'm not sure I can see the appeal of this particular product to the average civilian unless they've also sunk a princely sum into an extremely nice pair of night vision goggles running mid 4 figures or more.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  22. #22

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Oh come on, if there really was a military insurrection, do you think a few people owning NVG and IR/UV lasers is going to make any difference?
    Probably not. But why screw with people, telling them that they can't have something, if it's not going to hurt anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    You bring up a good special case, and for those that are on the border, why not provide them special permits commensurate with the greater danger they are in?
    ...Because we shouldn't have to ask permission to own something harmless like a light emitter. Happy slaves are happy doing what they are told. Free people feel otherwise.

    Who would decide who was worthy, and who wasn't?

    On the other side of any law is a pair of handcuffs and a gun. Irresponsible people are always eager to make more laws telling others what they can and cannot do without thinking about the consequences of their rules.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    You bring up a good special case, and for those that are on the border, why not provide them special permits commensurate with the greater danger they are in? Not everyone needs the same level of protection. We don't let just anyone buy certain lasers, weapons, rocket fuel, explosives, etc. .... just because they want them.
    Actually, the issue here is an internal company sales policy. The "dangerous" item" in this particular scenario (beyond the pretty ordinary pistol the laser mounts to) is the extremely expensive night vision device that the IR laser needs in order to be effective. As far as an IR laser goes, sub-milliwatt output isn't going to present a hazard to anyone.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  24. #24
    Flashaholic dirtech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

    Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

    It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

    Semiman
    I can only sigh at this mentality.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    quote:"Have to agree with the retailer on this one too...Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself...It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck."

    wild hogs will eat you out of HOUSE and HOME in certain situations. They breed like MICE and live in the woods surrounding your BUSINESS (farm). They trample and root up as much or more crops as they actuaally EAT. They also are chasing out all the other desireable game animals.

    animals not "shooting back" is funny, but... have you ever stood within a short range of a 600 pound WILD PIG with the big tusks? Large dominant males can be exceedingly dangerous.

    coyotes? they rip the CALVES out of teh MOTHER while they are being BORN, and rip the mothers underbelly up as well. You would HATE to come upon the PITIFUL LOOK of one of your herd in this slow painful death.

    do you have a pet cat? (I do...) I absolutely TREASURE my pet... when i go fishing down at the river valley, I can HEAR across th river high pitched SCREAM that is obviously a small animal screaming for its LIFE while it is being held down, ripped opn, and eaten ALIVE.

    THEN you hear the yote pack calls...

    ================================================== ================================================

    yotes and wild hogs will put you out of business if you dont get midevil on their @$$... not even counting all the coons and possums and such coming for a free handout. Farmers, ranchers, and game preserves lose thousands or tens of thousands of dollars a year each in bd cases...

    uh... YEAH, if someone wants to spend 5 GRAND on a night shooting setup? ore power to them... and if its just for a fun or cool factor? More power to them, I say...

    ================================================== =================================================

    i think a lot of people thing night hog hunting and yote hunting is mainly done for "fun", and it sure is done for fun in a lot of cases... BUT... to large farm or rancher or game preserve? Its "mission critical".

  26. #26

    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    As an NV dealer and wildlife control manager (paid to hog hunt weekly) for a ranch here in TX I don't get CT's logic and who cares. If your pistol has a light mount just get an IR clip on which has windage and elevation adjustments. Lasermax is the name of the company & it's about $300 for a tiny slim IR laser that will work perfectly on an AR as well. Guys who can't spend on a DBAL or restricted laser/illuminator can use these. I've had three occasions where I walked up on a wounded hog and had it jump straight up squealing pissed and scare me sh_tless. Thank god I had a competent hand gunner nearby. Never walk up on a hog in the dark that's not laying on its side. I have not read all the squabbling above but here in TX feral swine will destroy an entire field of rye grass in a night, costing thousands of dollars plus replacement cost if it was feed for cattle. There's no stopping them unfortunately but my business is to help hunters and ranchers level the playing field. I have access to the best equipment and buy it to help keep the feral hogs under control. It's a business for me and it's critical to the rancher.
    Last edited by Alex E; 10-29-2013 at 07:22 PM.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* zespectre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

    Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

    It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

    Semiman
    As an intellectual exercise:

    I guess that would really depend on what (or whom) you are defending yourself against. If you accept that the true purpose of the Second Amendment is to act as a check on Government Tyranny, then maintaining some sort of an equality of force is a pretty good reason.

    I suppose a desire to maintain the element of surprise (up until the first shot) in the event of a home invasion might be another legitimate reason.

    I know ranchers who use night vision and related equipment to protect their livestock and to ensure a clean kill on coyote and other predators.
    "Notorious collector of things that glow, shine, or blink"
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