Crimson Trace Internal Policy - Civilians are not allowed to purchase IR Devices such

[mhpoole]

Just thought I would let everyone know the policy from Michael at Crimson Trace. I called to inquire about the LGD-417 which are laser grips with the standard 5mw red Laser and also a .7mw IR laser, which can be used with night vision. Michael informed me that it is their internal policy that they will not sell this unit to civilians, but could not explain an answer. When I informed him that civilians could in fact purchase the same spec laser DBAL I2 with the same specs. Again he had no answer, and repeated it was an internal policy at Crimson Trace not to sell to civilians. It's to bad a company would choose to cut out a percentage of the market place over an internal policy. I am choosing to spend my dollars elsewhere unless this changes.

[RamblinWreck]

Good info, thanks.

[MichaelW]

The police are civilians too.

[Klem]

Such a 'noble' attempt to keep technology out of civilian hands. Unfortunately it all counts for nothing unless their competitors do the same. Don't sweat it... They won't achieve their aim, it costs them sales, and their competitors make more profit. Market forces will prevail eventually.

[AnAppleSnail]

My guess is that they consider this to be a liability concern. When some nut with gen1 NVG and an IR laser goes nuts, they don't want it to be their device. Similarly, I don't build or discuss certain devices and ideas out of a sense of civic duty. I know of several people with similar ideals - they'll only share with people who can be trusted to be safe. I've had such conversations with CPF members, concerning compelling-to-build devices that should not be made due to safety reasons.

My actions don't stop it from happening, but then that's all I can ever control.

[Klem]

You hit the nail on the head, 'civic duty' and the vague definition of what that entails. If you run a business related to firearms this becomes a double-edged weapon (another pun). The interpretation of ITAR export restriction is another classic example. Vague, arguable conditions that can be interpreted with or without 'Fortress America Post-9/11' mentality glasses on.

Here's an example. I ring up from Australia wanting to buy a battle sling from Troy, only to be told they are a restricted export and I need to fill out an end-user certificate...for a sling. So I buy one online from Blackhawk instead... Troy can sleep easy tonight knowing they are controlling pieces of cordura webbing with metal attachments on each end.

Here's another, TNVC exhorts how it is an 'offence' to allow a non-US citizen to look through Gen 3 night vision devices. Taking it a little too far methinks. No way! Ooops, I'd better stop looking through my PVS14 then...Gotta go!...Is that the sound of Seal Team 6 helicopters approaching?

One thing I have found as a non-US citizen, just because one outfit says no, doesn't mean everyone selling the same thing says no. I'd ring around about that Crimson Trace, eventually someone will say yes.

[kidde]

I come from the gun world so this makes perfect sense to me. The thinking is some "bad guy" will get NVG's and an IR Laser and be able to kill officers in the dark with no one knowing until it's too late. Parts of our government and even business community think that civilians can't be trusted. Gen 3 NVD are so far behind the times as to be a joke compared to what are elite units use. I had some Gen5 goggles from Varo (now part of ITT/Litton) back in the late 80's. They were amazing.

[SemiMan]

Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

Semiman

[lumen aeternum]

>Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination.

Bullshit. I'm looking for the best I can afford to control coyotes.

[More Power Please]

Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

Semiman

Sorry but your logic scares me. There are tons of people who hunt with IR lasers and NV to kill hogs and the other creatures of the night and they are not killing theri fellow man. The logic of it could potentially be used by the bad people so it should be banned by use by the good is again scary.

To update; I guess their ethics went out the window as they have jumped on the bandwagon and are selling their .7mw IR lasers to Joe citizen.

[SemiMan]

Really, you need both night vision and IR lasers for hunting. Given me a break. Why not just hunt with grenades it would be more sporting. Tons of people is probably an exaggeration and I know hunters who would not exactly call that "sporting". You just signed up and two posts ever MorePowerPlease ... makes me question your motives for being here.

[lumen aeternum]

Yup. Big difference between sport hunting and vermin control. I'm not going to let predators take out MY animals. And farmers can't afford to let hogs bankrupt them.

[argleargle]

Yup. Big difference between sport hunting and vermin control. I'm not going to let predators take out MY animals. And farmers can't afford to let hogs bankrupt them.

I agree with you and the other predator/pest control hunters in this thread. A common misconception that many people have is that night-hunting is illegal, it is usually not. Check your local laws, it's usually open season on predators and varmints.

[MatthewSB]

I seriously doubt gangbangers are going to spend thousands of dollars on NVGs and IR lasers to shoot cops. Any criminal organization with that kind of money to spend on hardware can get anything they want already, including fully automatic weapons, grenades, heavy machineguns, and probably stolen military nightvision stuff. By definition, criminals are not bound by the law or any other regulations regarding their armaments.

Crimson Trace acting like they are heroically standing between police officers and certain doom is laughable.

Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

Realistically, there is no non-military, non-NASCAR, non-criminal reason to drive a vehicle with more than 4 cylinders. It could easily be argued that the only reason to own a V6 or V8 would be to evade the police, or otherwise break speed limit laws.

Telling people that they can't have something because they don't "need" it is a dangerous "slippery slope".

Really, you need both night vision and IR lasers for hunting. Given me a break. Why not just hunt with grenades it would be more sporting. Tons of people is probably an exaggeration and I know hunters who would not exactly call that "sporting". You just signed up and two posts ever MorePowerPlease ... makes me question your motives for being here.

There are other reasons to kill animals than "sporting". Not all of us care what Elmer Fudd thinks.

Focusing on logic as opposed to emotion, I think that the rancher killing property destroying predators on his property is more legitimate than someone dressed in orange shooting deer because he gets off on it.

[EscapeVelocity]

Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

Semiman

Aparently you dont live near the Mexican border.


Why Would Any American Need an AR-15? Zetas, That’s Why

http://pjmedia.com/blog/why-would-an...tas-thats-why/


But the real reason for the 2nd Amendment is to guarantee effective arms to bring a tyrannical government under control. And NVG and UV lasers are part of that.

[argleargle]

Telling people that they can't have something because they don't "need" it is a dangerous "slippery slope".

Excellent logic, sir. To give up freedom because "you don't need it" is the height of stupidity. The Founding Fathers of America had rather a lot to say about this.

Focusing on logic as opposed to emotion, I think that the rancher killing property destroying predators on his property is more legitimate than someone dressed in orange shooting deer because he gets off on it.

To put it another way, a hostile force is attacking and robbing the rancher. They'll take out the rancher, too, if they have a chance. A predator eating a farmer's chickens is like a home invader stealing your posessions and looting your bank account.

Final point: Most governments do not protect the predators in this situation whatsoever, except in England and California.

[Ken_McE]

Michael informed me that it is their internal policy that they will not sell this unit to civilians, but could not explain an answer.

It's not that complicated. Someone in management made a decision, Michael has to follow it, and you have to live with it.

When I informed him that civilians could in fact purchase the same spec laser DBAL I2 with the same specs. Again he had no answer, and repeated it was an internal policy at Crimson Trace not to sell to civilians. It's to bad a company would choose to cut out a percentage of the market place over an internal policy.

It is a private company. They don't have to deal with you if they don't want to. They can lose as many sales as they like.

I am choosing to spend my dollars elsewhere unless this changes.

This is of course the adult response. Someone else will want your business.

[SemiMan]

But the real reason for the 2nd Amendment is to guarantee effective arms to bring a tyrannical government under control. And NVG and UV lasers are part of that.

Oh come on, if there really was a military insurrection, do you think a few people owning NVG and IR/UV lasers is going to make any difference?

[SemiMan]

Aparently you dont live near the Mexican border.

You bring up a good special case, and for those that are on the border, why not provide them special permits commensurate with the greater danger they are in? Not everyone needs the same level of protection. We don't let just anyone buy certain lasers, weapons, rocket fuel, explosives, etc. .... just because they want them.

[SemiMan]

A predator eating a farmer's chickens is like a home invader stealing your posessions and looting your bank account.

Given animal predators don't shoot back, i.e. no need to stealth, I am probably going to have more success with an IR illuminator and NVG scope than I will with an IR laser, NVG combo.

[idleprocess]

I think the short answer is to buy elsewhere.

While there is some distant, hypothetical chance for an "in the wrong hands" scenario, the absurd cost of even Gen 3 night vision gear makes it pretty unlikely, thus the liability concern is only costing them sales (could also be a marketing thing for "agency" buyers - restricting it sends some message that this is the good stuff). A serious terrorist or criminal organization seeking to do something nefarious has the resources to get around the laws and/or sales restrictions.

As best I can tell from what I've seen and read, none of the NV tech in production is so good as to let the user see in the dark with the ease of a cat. I'm not sure I can see the appeal of this particular product to the average civilian unless they've also sunk a princely sum into an extremely nice pair of night vision goggles running mid 4 figures or more.

[MatthewSB]

Oh come on, if there really was a military insurrection, do you think a few people owning NVG and IR/UV lasers is going to make any difference?

Probably not. But why screw with people, telling them that they can't have something, if it's not going to hurt anything?

You bring up a good special case, and for those that are on the border, why not provide them special permits commensurate with the greater danger they are in?

...Because we shouldn't have to ask permission to own something harmless like a light emitter. Happy slaves are happy doing what they are told. Free people feel otherwise.

Who would decide who was worthy, and who wasn't?

On the other side of any law is a pair of handcuffs and a gun. Irresponsible people are always eager to make more laws telling others what they can and cannot do without thinking about the consequences of their rules.

[idleprocess]

You bring up a good special case, and for those that are on the border, why not provide them special permits commensurate with the greater danger they are in? Not everyone needs the same level of protection. We don't let just anyone buy certain lasers, weapons, rocket fuel, explosives, etc. .... just because they want them.

Actually, the issue here is an internal company sales policy. The "dangerous" item" in this particular scenario (beyond the pretty ordinary pistol the laser mounts to) is the extremely expensive night vision device that the IR laser needs in order to be effective. As far as an IR laser goes, sub-milliwatt output isn't going to present a hazard to anyone.

[dirtech]

Have to agree with the retailer on this one too.

Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself.

It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck.

Semiman

I can only sigh at this mentality.

[sedstar]

quote:"Have to agree with the retailer on this one too...Realistically there is no non-military/anti-criminal reason that someone needs an IR laser/scope combination. That has one and only one purpose to kill people in a purely discreet manner. That goes well beyond defending oneself...It is good to know there are people out there that put ethics over every easy buck."

wild hogs will eat you out of HOUSE and HOME in certain situations. They breed like MICE and live in the woods surrounding your BUSINESS (farm). They trample and root up as much or more crops as they actuaally EAT. They also are chasing out all the other desireable game animals.

animals not "shooting back" is funny, but... have you ever stood within a short range of a 600 pound WILD PIG with the big tusks? Large dominant males can be exceedingly dangerous.

coyotes? they rip the CALVES out of teh MOTHER while they are being BORN, and rip the mothers underbelly up as well. You would HATE to come upon the PITIFUL LOOK of one of your herd in this slow painful death.

do you have a pet cat? (I do...) I absolutely TREASURE my pet... when i go fishing down at the river valley, I can HEAR across th river high pitched SCREAM that is obviously a small animal screaming for its LIFE while it is being held down, ripped opn, and eaten ALIVE.

THEN you hear the yote pack calls...

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yotes and wild hogs will put you out of business if you dont get midevil on their @$$... not even counting all the coons and possums and such coming for a free handout. Farmers, ranchers, and game preserves lose thousands or tens of thousands of dollars a year each in bd cases...

uh... YEAH, if someone wants to spend 5 GRAND on a night shooting setup? ore power to them... and if its just for a fun or cool factor? More power to them, I say...

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i think a lot of people thing night hog hunting and yote hunting is mainly done for "fun", and it sure is done for fun in a lot of cases... BUT... to large farm or rancher or game preserve? Its "mission critical".