Looking for a battery pack and charger ...

[MrOneEyedBoh]

I'm running the new quazzle. Led modules. The voltage is 9.9v Max . What kind of pack do I need and charger? I'm running one xpg and one xpe at 1.5amps each. Or ill run two xpgs at 1.5 amps each too. I'd like a 2 hour run time. I'd also like a good charger too. Can someone give me some insight?


edited: Im going to run both modules at 1.1a a piece. NOT 1.5a. So Im guessing that is a game changer now?

[MrOneEyedBoh]

I believe that I need 7.4v packs at 2S3P STYLE packs. I'd like it in the 2 hour run time. Here are the different modules.
http://www.lux-rc.com/view.php?p=con...nes/3UP/XPGGC2

http://www.lux-rc.com/view.php?p=con...nes/3UP/XPGH51

[BrianMc]

XPG's are 3.55 Vf at 1.5 A x 3 LEDs * 1.1 driver = 17.6 Watts/hr
@ Hours needs minimum of 35.2 Wt/hr per light = 70.4 Whr @ 7.4 v means 9600 mA battery or two smaller ones.

Charger & Power Supply I have one like the IMAX B6 but it cost me more over two years ago ;( I like it.

Hardcase *unprotected* packs. A pair of these? You will need something from this page. You may wish to add a Power Control module (PCM). The chargers will do balancing and protect against overcharge, the light engines prevent over discharge. You could put an in line fuse to protect against a short or use a PCM. I used an old water bottle to hold a 3S2P hard pack.

Or you could get one of these.

These are not exhaustive, and are not endorsements, nor am I associated with either company. I linked these to show you some options. You could build a 2S4P 2500+ mA 18650 pack.

Hope this helps.

BrianMc

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Thanks its does, but some im An ultra noob. Its very hard for me to learn all of this new stuff in enough time to make the right purchase, ya know? So Hmm.. I need a power supply and a charger.

Can I get protected packs? Why do I need a pair of these ( see above ) and something from this page? ( see above again ) It does suck and I Do need my hand held during this battery pruchase. Id like to do it right the first time, and have what I need exactly to full understand it all.

With the LEDs pulling that much power, I would need a 9600 mA battery.... haha. thats for what, 2 hours? Now I may not be running it full blast at all times. Im hoping I can get what I need around 50% or 65-75% brightness...

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Since Im going to run an XPG and one XRE at 1.1a a piece now, and NOT 1.5a.... I need new recommendations.

What about this pack

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-MagicShi...ht_2330wt_1270

[BrianMc]

BTW: Welcome to CPF (the icon won't past for some reason).

Thanks its does, but some im An ultra noob. Its very hard for me to learn all of this new stuff in enough time to make the right purchase, ya know? So Hmm.. I need a power supply and a charger.

If weight and cost are secondary to turnkey, and ease of use (no soldering, no wiring up a PCM), then go the designed for bike prebuilt battery pack route.

I get protected packs? Why do I need a pair of these ( see above ) and something from this page? ( see above again ) It does suck and I Do need my hand held during this battery pruchase. Id like to do it right the first time, and have what I need exactly to full understand it all.

Well, you may consider the suggestion a litmus test of your knowledge/skill level. If you went the Hobby battery route, you would need the matching plug for the battery output so you could run a connecting cable to the light. Your answer tells me, as does this response that you should not go that route.

The Hobby packs are designed to deliver very high currents so have no short, excess drainage, or max current protection. As bike batteries may be subject to mishaps, and the batteries are often near the rider, a fiery off gassing and near explosive pyrotechnics is undesirable in the extreme. So protected packs are advisable. This is an intermediate or advanced level DIY project.

The more expensive water bottle battery has PCM's for each series. This and the packaging increase the cost. A less expensive charger will do, which is in the package deal.

With the LEDs pulling that much power, I would need a 9600 mA battery.... haha. thats for what, 2 hours? Now I may not be running it full blast at all times. Im hoping I can get what I need around 50% or 65-75% brightness...

We don't read minds about how you are going to run your lights. So the suggestions are only as good as the info.

First you should know that at 1.5 A you are getting more heat per unit of light, so a lot less runtime for little more light, meaning you need a much bigger battery for 2 hours. You can google for the technical sheet on the XP-G and see that the output versus current chart is a decreasing curve. Many consider 1 or 1.2 A as an acceptable high and save 1.5 turbo mode for occasional downhills. I found that 0.5 amps on two triples would do most of my local riding but I needed 1 A on the highway shoulders to compete with car headlights.

I provided the equations you need to calculate this. That technical sheet has another chart. It is Vf for the XP-G versus current. The Vf x Current = Watts per hour. You have 3 Leds in each light.

So for 1 A current supplied, the XP-G Vf is 3.35 V. So that is 3.35 W per LED, or 10.5 W. The driver will use 2-15%, so we will assume 10%. So each light needs about 11.5 Watts per hour, 23 Watts for a 2 hour runtime each. Using a 7.4 Volt pack means you divide 23 W-hr by 7.4 or 3.1 A-hr, or 3100 mA-hr. If you want a single pack for both lights, twice that. Having two separate packs gives full redundancy. If one battery fails, or you forgot to charge it, you still have light.

You can do the same calculations for 1.2 A or any other level you wish.

Here is a 4.4 A-hr waterproofed pack. You will need the charger linked further down the page and its adaptor for the trailtech plug, You will need at least one male trailtech connector if you are running one power cord to both lights with no other connections. Most of us have a male at each light, maybe a 2 female 1 male Y, and a female to male patch cord if the battery is not near the lights. You should order what you need with the battery because their shipping is expensive. You are free to search for other sources, I provide this only so you can see this sort of setup.

Two of those with chargers and adaptors are the same price as the single water bottler battery with over 10 A-hr capacity.

We will answer questions, discuss pros and cons, but this is a DIY forum, not a HSEDIFM (have someone else do it for me) forum.

Hope you can take if from here.

BrianMc

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Yes and no. Oh well haha. I thank you for the time you put into the posts, but still cant grasp it.

edited:

So this water bottle setup (
http://www.batteryspace.com/water-bo...ch-female.aspx )will have a longer runtime on a 1.1a each ( XPG and XPE ) then this pack ( http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-B...-with-Bag.aspx ) right?

The water bottle comes with everything ready to roll. Power leads already soldered up from the batteries, the connector for the housing and the charger.. Seems like the better option,.


edit: Ok from looking up the spec sheets I ran them on the XPE and XPG.
The XPE at 1000ma @ 3.5vf ( x3 for each LED ) with 10% added in for driver, 11.5w Hr which = 23 Watts
The XPG at 1000ma @ 3.3vf ( x3 for each LED ) with 10% added in for driver, 10.8w Hr which = 21.6 watts

The XPE on a 7.4v pack would give me ( 23w/7.4v=3.10a which is 3100maH )
The XPG on a 7.4v pack would give me ( 21.6w/7.4v=2.9a which is 2900maH )

For one hour run time I would need 6000maH correct?

I usd this link to get the data sheets. Kinda nice to have it all in one place ( http://flashlight-wiki.com/Cree )

That bottle battery ( http://www.batteryspace.com/water-bo...ch-female.aspx ) is 10,400maH right? 10.4aH x 1000 = 10400maH..

Is there a correlation or a formula we can use to figure out the mAH to minutes. I want to know what the run time would be on the 10,400maH.

I think Im starting to get a hold of this more...

[BrianMc]

So this water bottle setup (
http://www.batteryspace.com/water-bo...ch-female.aspx )will have a longer runtime on a 1.1a each ( XPG and XPE ) then this pack ( http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-B...-with-Bag.aspx ) right?

Yes. It is the Watt-hour rating that you compare 79.96 Whr is 2.4 ties as much power. It is over 20% more power than *2* of the 33 Whr packs.

The water bottle comes with everything ready to roll. Power leads already soldered up from the batteries, the connector for the housing and the charger.. Seems like the better option.

Yes one lead is included. You can also one 6" lead with male plug, cut the one they give you to 6" for the other light and buy a two female to one male Y adapter to plug into the battery lead. Or you could just use the lead given and to one light and a piece from it to the other light. I like the flexibility of separate leads and different cabling depending on which water bottle mount I use.

: Ok from looking up the spec sheets I ran them on the XPE and XPG.
The XPE at 1000ma @ 3.5vf ( x3 for each LED ) with 10% added in for driver, 11.5w Hr which = 23 Watts
The XPG at 1000ma @ 3.3vf ( x3 for each LED ) with 10% added in for driver, 10.8w Hr which = 21.6 watts

The XPE on a 7.4v pack would give me ( 23w/7.4v=3.10a which is 3100maH )
The XPG on a 7.4v pack would give me ( 21.6w/7.4v=2.9a which is 2900maH )

For one hour run time I would need 6000maH correct?

Almost. For *2* hours. Each was for two hours (you doubled the 11.5 and 10.8 W/hr power needs.

I used this link to get the data sheets. Kinda nice to have it all in one place ( http://flashlight-wiki.com/Cree )

That bottle battery ( http://www.batteryspace.com/water-bo...ch-female.aspx ) is 10,400maH right? 10.4aH x 1000 = 10400maH..

Is there a correlation or a formula we can use to figure out the mAH to minutes. I want to know what the run time would be on the 10,400maH.

I think Im starting to get a hold of this more...

Getting there! Take the 79.96 Whr (battery capacity which is the 10.4 A x 7.4 V) and divide it by the total power needs of the two lights per hour (11.5 +10.8 = 22.3 watts) so you have 79.96/22.3 hr = 3.59 hr. Lots of room to use 1.5 amp in the XP-G light when you need it. Or to cover you if you decide on a longer ride.

There is comfort in a well designed over built system when you are getting started. You can concentrate on enjoying and learning and not worrying about your design and build all the time.

Have fun!

BrianMc

[find_bruce]

Funny, I could have sworn I replied to this post, but fortunately BrianMc has covered pretty much everything I had to say & more. I use a very similar charger & 5,000 mah lipo battery with one quazzle L333 & entirely consistent with Brian's calculations I get 2+ hours run time on max power.

Like you I found things a bit daunting at first as there is a steep learning curve. Simple steps are a good start

If you are thinking about going down the hobby charger route (such as the imax 6 or accucel 6) I would recommend reading what is a hobby charger by CPF contributor HKJ

Cheers

Bruce

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Thanks fellas. Im still gathering information haha. Soon enough I hope.

The only thing that has me weary about the bottle batteries is the potential for damaged cells from not balance charging.

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Ok guys well someone hooked me up on mtbr.. This is what they said to buy

1. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9151
2. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=5548
3. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dproduct=11758
4. One of these if the modules do NOT have discharge monitoring.. And I think they do http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...cessories.html
5. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=4134

Ok thats cool. And its what I needed. But that 5400 battery is one hour. So he said to get two of them. And thats cool too. But what about this option..

LiFePo4.. Is that safer? It will run on the modules too.
Also on the "c" rating on the batteries. I know that corresponds to amps of the pack. What should this "rating" be for me to run on the modules?
I seen the style of the packs, 3s2p, 2s3p etc etc. What is the one that Im after? Does it matter?

Reason Im wondering if because I can get this 8400 mah pack LiFePo4 for 89 bucks ( http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do...ks-744148.html ) that would get me around 2 hours almost ( not on 100% full obviously ) and then I can get one of these 5400 mah packs for 62 bucks ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9151 ) and then I can get a comparative LiFePo4 pack for 28 bucks ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...se%5Fpack.html )...

These prices just seem to be everywhere...

I know you said that these do NOT have PCB protection. Is it necessary? Isnt that why I would use that IMAX charger? The charger balances too.

[PapaLumen]

As for the style of packs - you want a 2s pack for a single quazzle module 1s=3.7v 2s=7.4v etc. The p is for capacity so a 2s3p pack has more capacity than a 2s2p pack but voltage remains the same. You could use a 2s4p if you wanted.

I have a couple of lights that use triple xp-g boards, although they are not quazzle's mine require 4s or 14.8v. I use turnigy packs similar to the ones you just posted and i use an accucel 6 hobby charger with balance function to charge. The batteries come with balance lead on them already so just needs plugged into the charger's balance port.

[pobox1475]

http://reviews.mtbr.com/philips-safe...ights-shootout

[BrianMc]

Thanks fellas. Im still gathering information haha. Soon enough I hope.

The only thing that has me weary about the bottle batteries is the potential for damaged cells from not balance charging.

As I understand them those include PCM (power control modules) that limit overcharging, over discharging, limit max current and protect against shorting, and handle balancing during charging and discharging, one board for each series set.

BrianMc

[BrianMc]

Ok guys well someone hooked me up on mtbr.. This is what they said to buy

1. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9151
2. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=5548
3. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dproduct=11758
4. One of these if the modules do NOT have discharge monitoring.. And I think they do http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...cessories.html
5. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=4134

Ok thats cool. And its what I needed. But that 5400 battery is one hour. So he said to get two of them. And thats cool too. But what about this option..

LiFePo4.. Is that safer? It will run on the modules too.

It is safer, lighter than NiMH, heavier for the same power than LiPo.

on the "c" rating on the batteries. I know that corresponds to amps of the pack. What should this "rating" be for me to run on the modules?

It is a rating of continuous discharge needed for electric motors. The lights will draw 22.3 W. The 7.4 pack is 8.4 off the charger, and about 6 when almost discharged when it will have to deliver 3.72 A. Which is less than 1 C.

I seen the style of the packs, 3s2p, 2s3p etc etc. What is the one that Im after? Does it matter?

Reason Im wondering if because I can get this 8400 mah pack LiFePo4 for 89 bucks ( http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do...ks-744148.html ) that would get me around 2 hours almost ( not on 100% full obviously ) and then I can get one of these 5400 mah packs for 62 bucks ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9151 ) and then I can get a comparative LiFePo4 pack for 28 bucks ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...se%5Fpack.html )...

These prices just seem to be everywhere...

I know you said that these do NOT have PCB protection. Is it necessary? Isnt that why I would use that IMAX charger? The charger balances too.

They sell many more hobby packs so the price is god, but they are higher discharge and a bit heavier for the capacity than we really need. The price is certainly good.

You don't really care whether they parallel more smaller cells in a pack or fewer bigger ones. The light won't care. The voltage and the power are the issue. You need 2S (2 series to get 7.4 V) and as many P's as it takes to get the capacity to run 2 hours. Or two one hour packs, as I suggested originally.

Hope this helps.

BrianMc

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Absolutely BrianMC. Im up and running almost. My Quazzle's shipped. and Im now just looking and trying to get my batteries set up. I thought that the quazzles had battery monitoring.. It does not. Is this going to be necessary for those hobby packs? Or is that what the charger does ( fully charge and balance )

So from the hobby pack standpoint.

I need a battery ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9151 ) I"ll get a few of these. This should net around 1:45mins on 1000ma per LED on full right?
I also need a charger ( is the Accucel 6 (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=7028) or the IMAX b6 ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._GENUINE_.html ) better? ) Anything else? Seems the IMAX b6 doesnt balance well...
I would need a power supply ( HK.com is sold out... Hmm
I could get one of these to monitor, they plug into the balance plug on the pack (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...cessories.html )
I would need a LiPo charge bag.



This is what Im getting for 2000ma of LEDs and 21vf. SAys I need 12000mah for 1:53 runtime..



Also, On the light connection to the battery pack. Would should I do, go with a Tamiya connection on both ends? Cut the LiPo ends and go with bullets? ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...0pcs_set_.html ) Then put bullets on the other end of my light? Or these connections on the light and the LiPo ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...s_GENUINE.html )

[BrianMc]

I need a battery ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=9151 ) I"ll get a few of these. This should net around 1:45mins on 1000ma per LED on full right?

By the specifications, yes.

I also need a charger ( is the Accucel 6 (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idProduct=7028) or the IMAX b6 ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._GENUINE_.html ) better?
) Anything else? Seems the IMAX b6 doesnt balance well...
I would need a power supply ( HK.com is sold out... Hmm
I could get one of these to monitor, they plug into the balance plug on the pack (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...cessories.html )
I would need a LiPo charge bag.

I have a Turnigy brand clone of the Accucel. I am happy with it but it is my first Hobby Charger. If you can use a car battery for a while you can get the 12 volt power supply when it is available by ordering it on a separate order (more shipping, though). The battery monitor/balance watch is a good idea, so is the bag. I have been using a cement flower pot but parts could go up and out in a worst case, so I am getting one. BTW charging at 0.5 C or less increases pack life.

This is what Im getting for 2000ma of LEDs and 21vf. SAys I need 12000mah for 1:53 runtime..

You are not driving 2 amps into 21 volts (not in series) which is 42 watts, but 2 amps into 21 volts/2 (parallel). Or you could think of it as 1 amp for 10 v plus 1 amp for 11.5 v, for 21 W.

Also, On the light connection to the battery pack. Would should I do, go with a Tamiya connection on both ends? Cut the LiPo ends and go with bullets? ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...0pcs_set_.html ) Then put bullets on the other end of my light? Or these connections on the light and the LiPo ( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...s_GENUINE.html )

Water tightness might be an issue. I have the pack in a water bottle so I can convert from the gold barrel connector on my pack to the Trailtech waterproof connectors out in the open. Since you have MTBR access search for connectors. There have been threads. I have no experience with the performance of these connectors over time on an all weather bike. Others here may know.

BrianMc

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Thanks. I can make up a connector to go from the pack ( xt-60 ) to the trailtech waterproof ones.. It doesnt matter which end ( Male or Female ) comes from the pack or light, right>

I have the two ends of the plugs but I cant find the empty bottle that they have in their other kits. Do they still it solo?

[MrOneEyedBoh]

brian,
how is this kit? http://www.openlightsystems.com/Bundles/Lupine%20Savings%20Deal-%20Helmet%20Mount-%20Extension%20Cord-%20Charger-%208-7%20Ah%20Li%20Ion%20Battery.html

it uses 18650s, arent they more dependable/safer/better for LEDs etc?

[BrianMc]

brian,
how is this kit? http://www.openlightsystems.com/Bundles/Lupine Savings Deal- Helmet Mount- Extension Cord- Charger- 8-7 Ah Li Ion Battery.html

$240? Expensive compared to the Battery Space Water bottle also AFAIK, 18650's.

It uses 18650s, aren't they more dependable/safer/better for LEDs etc?

I am not an expert. But it seems the higher discharge rates come at the expense of more weight in Hobby Packs compared to 18650 cells in a pack of the same power. Since bike lights usually draw less than 10 A or about 2C or less not 20C or more. Since lighter packs mean you can have the same power at less weight (great for a bike) or more runtime for the same weight (also of merit). Weight wasn't critical for me. There is also number of charge cycles. I figure I will run past their life (2-3 years) before hitting the charge number for either one.

Decent read on hobby packs: http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html.

"Although getting better, RC LiPo’s don’t last that long, perhaps only 300-400 charge cycles (much less if not cared for properly). That said, I have heard some people getting over 1000 cycles if all [COLOR=#009900 !important]the rules[/COLOR] are followed.
Safety issues - because of the volatile electrolyte used in LiPo’s, they can catch fire or explode.
RC LiPo batteries require unique and proper care if they are going to last for any length of time more so than any other battery technology. Charging, discharging, and storage all affect the lifespan – get it wrong and a LiPo is [COLOR=#009900 !important]garbage[/COLOR] in as little as one mistake."


Recommends not discharging below 80% capacity. Either Li-ion or LiPo will last about 2 years before a 33% capacity drop.

Check out the video on the burning packs. Li-ions need caution, too. If managing this is an issue the LiFePO4 may be a better choice for you, they appear to have a longer lifespan charge cycle and age related.

[BrianMc]

Scar:http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?u=262291 makes 7.4 V 18650 packs in the US, various capacities. A US option.

BrianMc

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Thanks for that link! also on that tip for the MTBR hookup. I have PMed him.