Reflectors are toast

ukiltmybrutha

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Hello,

The reflectors in my headlights are toast. The headlights are hard to get and expensive. I have googled this to death and it also seems pricey to have the reflectors redone. I have also googled to death on painting them and have seen very few people indicate that they have painted the reflectors with any luck. I don't want to paint the reflectors black. Is there anything that I could paint them with and still have better luck than painting them black? Some folks mentioned Krylon mirror something or other but that doesn't seem to be high temperature.

I am tired of buying used headlights from users on the Galant forum only to have them arrived with worn reflectors.

Thanks for any thoughts!
 

-Virgil-

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If by "very few" you mean nobody has had any "luck" painting their reflectors, then you're right. It is not possible to obtain even a minimally acceptable reflector for a headlamp or other forward-illumination lamp with any kind of paint. And, um, black? What would you hope to achieve by painting them black? You're joking, right?

For refurbishing reflectors you already have, what process have you examined and found too pricey, and what are the dollar figures you've come up with? And just for curiosity, have you priced new headlamp assemblies?
 

Alaric Darconville

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If by "very few" you mean nobody has had any "luck" painting their reflectors, then you're right. It is not possible to obtain even a minimally acceptable reflector for a headlamp or other forward-illumination lamp with any kind of paint. And, um, black? What would you hope to achieve by painting them black? You're joking, right?

Well, you know-- "blackbody radiator" seems to come up from time to time when talking about color temperature...
 

GTS Jeff

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It seems like a fool's task to fix shitty technology. Why not simply retrofit with something simple like the Mini H1?
 

-Virgil-

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If by "Mini H1" you mean the "Morimoto" items sold under that name to make you think of Japanese quality no matter that these lamps are not made in Japan, this would not be a wise pick. Even if you were to start with legally-certified or approved projectors, "retrofits" like that are a good deal harder to do right than is generally assumed -- difficult to mount the projectors robustly with proper center of gravity, difficult to get a good and durable seal once the headlamp has been baked apart, difficult to get the projector aim correct with respect to the housing, etc. And if you were to decide to put projectors in your housings, what would you do about providing a 100% transparent, non-optical lens for the projectors to look through? If you shine them through the factory headlamp lens, the optics will screw up the beams.

On the other hand, you could mount two low and two high beam modular self-housed projectors (e.g. Hella 90mm) directly to the radiator support panel, removing the original headlamp assemblies completely. It'd look a little incomplete unless you were to fashion some kind of a finish plate shaped like the lens.

But I'm still curious what processes and prices you've looked at for restoring the reflectors!
 

ukiltmybrutha

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If by "Mini H1" you mean the "Morimoto" items sold under that name to make you think of Japanese quality no matter that these lamps are not made in Japan, this would not be a wise pick. Even if you were to start with legally-certified or approved projectors, "retrofits" like that are a good deal harder to do right than is generally assumed -- difficult to mount the projectors robustly with proper center of gravity, difficult to get a good and durable seal once the headlamp has been baked apart, difficult to get the projector aim correct with respect to the housing, etc. And if you were to decide to put projectors in your housings, what would you do about providing a 100% transparent, non-optical lens for the projectors to look through? If you shine them through the factory headlamp lens, the optics will screw up the beams.

On the other hand, you could mount two low and two high beam modular self-housed projectors (e.g. Hella 90mm) directly to the radiator support panel, removing the original headlamp assemblies completely. It'd look a little incomplete unless you were to fashion some kind of a finish plate shaped like the lens.

But I'm still curious what processes and prices you've looked at for restoring the reflectors!

I can't recall exactly what I looked at, but I am on the cheap side being that I own 4 other vehicles (some of them beaters but definitely with purposes).

More recently, two individuals have put some up for sale on that forum. The reflectors look very good in pics, but I won't know until I receive them.

Interesting on the Hella 90mm projectors. Thanks all for your thoughts.
 

Alaric Darconville

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I can't recall exactly what I looked at, but I am on the cheap side being that I own 4 other vehicles (some of them beaters but definitely with purposes).

More recently, two individuals have put some up for sale on that forum. The reflectors look very good in pics, but I won't know until I receive them.

Is there something like a Pull-A-Part in your area? That'd be easier than dealing with people on that forum and having to return things if they're unsuitable.

I'm still confused about the black paint thing-- did you mean to paint the back (non-reflective) side of the reflectors with matte black paint to help with heat dissipation, so that the 'silver' or other shiny metallic spray paint on the reflective side is less likely to cook off? (Not that spray paint will EVER be acceptable as a finish to replace the original vapor-deposited aluminum...)
 

ukiltmybrutha

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Is there something like a Pull-A-Part in your area? That'd be easier than dealing with people on that forum and having to return things if they're unsuitable.

I'm still confused about the black paint thing-- did you mean to paint the back (non-reflective) side of the reflectors with matte black paint to help with heat dissipation, so that the 'silver' or other shiny metallic spray paint on the reflective side is less likely to cook off? (Not that spray paint will EVER be acceptable as a finish to replace the original vapor-deposited aluminum...)

There is a huge pull a part in my area, but they NEVER have any Mitsubishi Galants in it. I did originally mean painting the reflective area....but hey it does say "unenlightened" next to my name. :)

Now I know better. It seems like some of the guys are painting the top of the reflective side of the reflector when it cooks off. The top of the glass that is above that part of the reflector is painted black anyways, so I don't seem any harm in that. I was also thinking of painting the bottom of the reflective side of the reflector. A headlight that I have has the top and bottom of the reflector cooked but the center is almost completely unharmed. This would mean that I would need to go back into my perfect driver's side headlight and do the same though.

I also found this paint from Krylon (not high temp but it wouldn't be on the bulbs). After like 1000 google searches deep, I get the impression that someone painted their entire reflector with it:

http://www.google.com/products/cata...m=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=6879887204288245245

I wouldn't be looking to paint the entire reflector after you all set me straight. :) Just the top and bottom (of the reflective sides) if you all don't think that would do any harm.

I have the Krylon mirror paint and the black rustoleum paint on hand. I also have an email in to Krylon to see how much heat it can handle.

Thoughts?

Thanks
 
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Alaric Darconville

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Now I know better. It seems like some of the guys are painting the top of the reflective side of the reflector when it cooks off. The top of the glass that is above that part of the reflector is painted black anyways, so I don't seem any harm in that. I was also thinking of painting the bottom of the reflective side of the reflector. A headlight that I have has the top and bottom of the reflector cooked but the center is almost completely unharmed.
I'm reading this to mean that you want to paint the reflective portions of the reflector. The top part of the reflector is for the for the low beam; you'll have a terrible beam pattern that way. If you mean he portion of the reflector that is not actually for a functional part of the beam, you still don't want to paint it.

Also: NO. Do not paint your reflectors.

This would mean that I would need to go back into my perfect driver's side headlight and do the same though.
And completely ruin it. Great idea!


Thoughts?

Don't paint your reflectors.
 

ukiltmybrutha

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I'm reading this to mean that you want to paint the reflective portions of the reflector. The top part of the reflector is for the for the low beam; you'll have a terrible beam pattern that way. If you mean he portion of the reflector that is not actually for a functional part of the beam, you still don't want to paint it.

Also: NO. Do not paint your reflectors.


And completely ruin it. Great idea!




Don't paint your reflectors.

Ehmm ok looool! Don't paint the reflectors! :)
 

bshanahan14rulz

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I think, sadly, the only viable option is to have them re-coat the reflectors, which generally is pretty pricey for plastics IIRC...
Hella modules are legal if installed correctly, and they're easier to install correctly than a full headlight retrofit with projectors from another car, new clear protective lenses, etc. It might just look kinda funny.
 

GTS Jeff

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First off, let's not worry about the marketing and worry more about real world application and performance. In the retro forums, there haven't been many complaints about quality at all, the company itself is constantly revising and improving on the design, and it's been around for a long time offering good customer care. As for legality, I would say that DOT requirements really don't mean much, again in terms of real world application. The factory Galant lights are legal. So what? The Mini H1s are designed to be easier to retrofit, as they generally don't require any cutting at all and screw into the existing bulb hole. Maintaining a good seal isn't difficult at all (it just means being careful and meticulous, which is true of ANY DIY,) and aiming the projector WRT to the housing isn't a concern since the Mini H1s are bixenons and the housing itself can be aimed to create proper cutoff height.

I guess there are two problems upon further thought. One is that getting the proper rotational alignment of the projector is difficult...but again it just means test-fitting and re-aligning until it's right. And the second problem as you pointed out, is that retros do rely upon non-optical lens...which I have no idea if the Galant has. That may be a deal breaker right there. Are they fluted or clear?

Food for thought though, if the OP is not confident in DIY, he can always send his housings off to the professionals to retrofit for him too. It'll cost a bit more, but still way less than 4 Hella lamps, better protected by being mounted higher and within a factory lens. Also looks cleaner.
 

-Virgil-

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I can't recall exactly what I looked at, but I am on the cheap side

I think you will sooner than later discover that it costs more (time, money, work) to do a halfaѕѕ job than to do it correctly. Sounds like you are accumulating something of a pile of spare reflectors. Send a picture with dimensions to this outfit, tell them they're headlamp reflectors, and request a quote for recoating them.
 

-Virgil-

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First off, let's not worry about the marketing and worry more about real world application and performance.

No, it's not either/or. We have here a company engaging in arguably deceptive marketing of a headlamp optic that is neither type-approved to international regulations nor certified to US regulations. Therefore we have no indication or assurance, none at all, that its performance is even minimally acceptable. Satisfied customers don't count; even those who spend their whole professional lives engineering, making, testing, or regulating headlamps don't put much weight on their subjective naked-eye evaluations of beam patterns. Until there's a beam isoplot and a photometric compliance report and data on how well or poorly the "Morimoto" projectors do on the various other mechanical and performance tests required of headlamp optics on road-going vehicles, the only safe assumption (and the most likely correct one) is that they are inadequate, substandard, and unsafe.

In the retro forums, there haven't been many complaints about quality at all

I doubt if very many people in the retro forums are really qualified or equipped to judge the quality.

the company itself is constantly revising and improving on the design

...which means they are using customers as their beta testers...

As for legality, I would say that DOT requirements really don't mean much

That is an uninformed statement not in line with reality. Believing this is certainly more convenient than acknowledging the reality of the situation, though.

The factory Galant lights are legal. So what?

Please either give a couple of sentences about the reason why vehicle safety equipment has to be scrutinized under one or another recognized technical standard, or if you cannot, please explain what makes your advice on automotive headlamps at all sound.

Maintaining a good seal isn't difficult at all

It is much more difficult than you seem to think. That's how this sort of thing works; those who say "Aw, it's a cinch!" generally say so because they do not really understand what they are talking about.

I guess there are two problems upon further thought. One is that getting the proper rotational alignment of the projector is difficult...but again it just means test-fitting and re-aligning until it's right. And the second problem as you pointed out, is that retros do rely upon non-optical lens...which I have no idea if the Galant has.

Again, the Galant's headlamp lenses are fluted.

he can always send his housings off to the professionals to retrofit for him too.

With all due respect to whatever fine, experienced, equipped professional engineers might be doing projector retrofits, I have encountered only one -- this guy -- in all my many inquiries and investigations. All the other "professional" retrofitters I've talked with have been very enthusiastic but woefully ignorant and ill-equipped kids, completely unqualified to do the kind of work they are accepting. Their work, when scrutinized and evaluated according to the relevant technical standards (any of them! DOT, ECE, SAE...) is not even marginally acceptable.

Seriously, dood, tuners will be tuners, but headlamps are not toys. They're safety devices. They have to be right -- they have to be all the way right. "Looks good" doesn't get the job done. "Everyone on the retro forum thinks it's great" doesn't cut it. Guesses and assumptions and dismissals of centrally important engineering and performance factors don't cut it, either. And the relevant technical standards and requirements of performance, construction, and design do not cease to exist simply because you don't understand them or you find them inconvenient to think about.

It'll cost a bit more, but still way less than 4 Hella lamps

Hella modules can be bought for $65 apiece, see here. That's $260 worth of self-housed, well-sealed, high-performing, legally certified headlamps. What does $260 buy in the "professional" retrofits you have in mind?

better protected by being mounted higher

Huh? The idea was to mount the Hella modules in place of the factory headlamps.

and within a factory lens.

Optic lenses and sealing concerns mean that's a bad thing, not a good thing.
 
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alpg88

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ppl do paint reflectors on TAIL LIGHTS white on old cars, but not headlights.
 

kingofwylietx

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I can't take it anymore....for exactly what year Galant is it so difficult to get a set of replacement headlights? I'm just amazed that it can possibly be so expensive and difficult that anyone would consider installing projectors or sending their housing to be refurbished.
 

-Virgil-

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That's a good question that should've been answered long ago. Have you (original poster) checked with a dealer to see what a new pair of headlamps will cost?
 

alpg88

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bigger question why they even need replacing, or why they get damaged??? none of the cars i ever had had problems with reflectors, granted i never used any bulb that was not designed for the light assembly,
 

-Virgil-

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bigger question why they even need replacing, or why they get damaged???

They get slowly cooked to death by the heat of the bulbs.

none of the cars i ever had had problems with reflectors

Yeah, they did -- you just didn't know/notice it. Headlamp reflector performance begins dropping slowly immediately after the lamps are made, and it accelerates with usage and age. By the time the degradation is detectible with the naked eye, the lamps are well and truly dead. Keep in mind: top-quality chrome is less than 70% reflective, which is completely inadequate for an optical element like a reflector, but that top-quality chrome sure looks terrific! Likewise, a useless reflector can look very, very similar to a new one (headlamp reflectors are over 95% reflective when new).
 
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