what's the best HID replacement for 74 BMW R90S motorcycle with H-4 halogen?

[cy]

in the middle of getting a 74 BMW R90S going again after sitting 30 years.
details here if anyone is interested http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=730033

BMW is equipped with a 240 watt alternator. which will not support heated winter liners without reducing current running loads. or upgrading to a higher output alternator $500+. would prefer to stay with stock alternator. if running load is reduced to 50 watt range then current charging system should support heated liners. which is 77 watt for heated jacket and 30 watt for heated gloves.

rear tail lights already switched to LED (1/2 watt low, 4 watt high) H-4 halogen 90/100 watt can be replaced with HID (35watt)

what's the best HID replacement for 74 BMW R90S motorcycle with H-4 halogen?

[Alaric Darconville]

rear tail lights already switched to LED (1/2 watt low, 4 watt high)

If those are just LED "drop-ins" that go directly in place of the bulbs that were originally in the lights, those are unsafe, ineffective, and illegal.

H-4 halogen 90/100 watt can be replaced with HID (35watt)

No.

Merely installing an "HID kit" in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is unsafe and ineffective, and on top of that, illegal. See here.

what's the best HID replacement for 74 BMW R90S motorcycle with H-4 halogen?

While there might be a good purpose-built 7" round HID lamp, you might look into the LED-based JW Speaker #8700. See here.

[cy]

If those are just LED "drop-ins" that go directly in place of the bulbs that were originally in the lights, those are unsafe, ineffective, and illegal. No.

Merely installing an "HID kit" in a fixture designed for a filament bulb is unsafe and ineffective, and on top of that, illegal. See here.

While there might be a good purpose-built 7" round HID lamp, you might look into the LED-based JW Speaker #8700. See here.

thanks for the link ... looks like HID is out, same for 7in LED replacement lamps. this BMW is equipped with a custom halogen headlamp that's slightly larger in diameter. with so many HID conversions out there, mistakenly thought they were legal.

puzzled as to why LED tail light (not cree) 1157 drop-in are illegal. they work pretty much same as 1157 bulb with a tiny current draw.

[Alaric Darconville]

thanks for the link ... looks like HID is out, same for 7in LED replacement lamps. this BMW is equipped with a custom halogen headlamp that's slightly larger in diameter. with so many HID conversions out there, mistakenly thought they were legal.

Maybe a bezel could be fabricated to make look neater... If you're putting a smaller lamp in a spot for a larger one, that might work (but would require precision to get it to look good).

Glad to hear you've decided against the HID "kit".

puzzled as to why LED tail light (not cree) 1157 drop-in are illegal. they work pretty much same as 1157 bulb with a tiny current draw.

To summarize this post by our resident expert Scheinwerfermann, the lamp assembly is designed for a filament light source, so that the reflector will put the light in the proper pattern. The LED taillights you have probably look "just fine", but could cause distracting glare at certain angles, and leave you less-than-seen at others. Basically, the safety function of the lights has been severely compromised.

[cy]

Maybe a bezel could be fabricated to make look neater... If you're putting a smaller lamp in a spot for a larger one, that might work (but would require precision to get it to look good).

Glad to hear you've decided against the HID "kit".



To summarize this post by our resident expert Scheinwerfermann, the lamp assembly is designed for a filament light source, so that the reflector will put the light in the proper pattern. The LED taillights you have probably look "just fine", but could cause distracting glare at certain angles, and leave you less-than-seen at others. Basically, the safety function of the lights has been severely compromised.

thanks for the HID info... which is definitely not doable. sticking with existing halogen bulbs.

gotta disagree with your second post about LED tail lights being illegal. at much lower lumen levels produced by 1157 incandescent bulb. don't think reflector has the same critical effect that may be true for higher output headlights.

red LED taillights are getting to be standard equipment for most any over the road trucks. heavy equipment etc. commonly used by City of Tulsa trucks, etc. Note I'm not referring to Cree 1157 drop-in which probably are too bright possibly causing a danger to someone following.

[Alaric Darconville]

gotta disagree with your second post about LED tail lights being illegal. at much lower lumen levels produced by 1157 incandescent bulb. don't think reflector has the same critical effect that may be true for higher output headlights.

red LED taillights are getting to be standard equipment for most any over the road trucks. heavy equipment etc. commonly used by City of Tulsa trucks, etc. Note I'm not referring to Cree 1157 drop-in which probably are too bright possibly causing a danger to someone following.

The City of Tulsa is probably (almost CERTAINLY) using LED tail lamps that were designed by competent companies and performing according to accepted standards. This is not the same as going to AutoZone and getting an 1157 "drop-in" and dropping it in the original fixture that was designed for an 1157.
Stop, tail, and turn signals have certain minimum and maximum outputs, depending on the function and test point. The factory lamps are designed to produce these minima and maxima when the correct bulb is fitted to them. These "drop-ins" whether Cree or Nichia or 5mm or 3mm or 10mm cannot, do not, will not produce the light output in such a way as the internal reflector will then direct it to those test points correctly. This can result in excessive glare or insufficient light, or combinations of both, and insufficient effective projected luminous lens area.

Not to mention that those "drop-ins" are illegal to sell.

[cy]

The City of Tulsa is probably (almost CERTAINLY) using LED tail lamps that were designed by competent companies and performing according to accepted standards. This is not the same as going to AutoZone and getting an 1157 "drop-in" and dropping it in the original fixture that was designed for an 1157.
Stop, tail, and turn signals have certain minimum and maximum outputs, depending on the function and test point. The factory lamps are designed to produce these minima and maxima when the correct bulb is fitted to them. These "drop-ins" whether Cree or Nichia or 5mm or 3mm or 10mm cannot, do not, will not produce the light output in such a way as the internal reflector will then direct it to those test points correctly. This can result in excessive glare or insufficient light, or combinations of both, and insufficient effective projected luminous lens area.

Not to mention that those "drop-ins" are illegal to sell.

note LED 1157 drop-in I'm using is not home made and sold by a national chain. DOT approved means they are LEGAL.

listing below is similar to what I'm using.... Greta should chase down the Candlepower LED name... very confusing.

CandlePower Replacement LED Light Bulb - Stop Tail - 12V - SAE 1157R LED 1157R
by Candlepower
Price: $17.95

In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Kinney Cycles.
Only 4 left in stock--order soon.
5 new from $16.98
Product Features

SAE standard lamp designation #1157R. D.O.T. Approved. Sold as pack of 10, priced individually.

http://www.amazon.com/CandlePower-Re.../dp/B000GZJ21W

[Hilldweller]

While there might be a good purpose-built 7" round HID lamp, you might look into the LED-based JW Speaker #8700. See here.

I liked my JW Speaker #8700s on my Jeep ---- but I had two and also used supplemental (TruckLite) lighting. A single 8700 wouldn't be as good as a single HID like the Valeo/Sylvania XE7. If you could make a bezel to fit one of those, you'd have a legal HID H4 in there.
I've only seen them in action a couple of times, last in an H1 retrofit. The light was quite decent.
They look like bug-eyes though.

[Alaric Darconville]

note LED 1157 drop-in I'm using is not home made and sold by a national chain. DOT approved means they are LEGAL.

The DOT does not approve anything.

From Daniel Stern Lighting
There's no such thing as "DOT approved". DOT does not "approve" products as the European regulatory body does. Rather, the manufacturer of an item of motor vehicle equipment is legally obligated to self-certify that his product complies with all applicable regulations. For some items of equipment, such as headlamp bulbs, the certification takes the form of a "DOT" marking on the bulb base. However, there is no legal obligation for the manufacturer to submit [the] product for government testing before applying the marking, and many companies go ahead and apply the marking even to bulbs that do not comply with the law.

Again, the bulbs cannot/do not/will not result in a compliant lamp.

[Hilldweller]

The big problem with the LED bulbs in the tails/blinkers is how they look when viewed from off-axis; it's almost like they're not lit up at all.
Is that what you want in the back of your bike when I'm behind you in my 7000-pound Power Wagon and trailer?

[Alaric Darconville]

Let's look at this another way. For many of the same reasons that an HID capsule in a fixture designed for a filament bulb results in a non-compliant lamp, an LED drop-in in a fixture designed for a filament bulb results in a non-compliant lamp. The optics are designed to work with a specifically sized, shaped, and placed light source. By changing to a light source with a different size, shape, and placement, you have changed the performance of the lamp.

This cannot be changed by stamping "D.O.T. Approved" on a bulb or on packaging, and whether the device is found at Wal-Mart, AutoZone, O'Reilly's, Pep Boys, JC Whitney, Dillard's, Harrod's, Dollar General, or Braum's Ice Cream & Dairy Stores, it does not matter.

[Scheinwerfermann]

note LED 1157 drop-in I'm using is not home made and sold by a national chain. DOT approved means they are LEGAL.

No, actually "DOT approved" means someone's telling you a fib in order to get you to buy this "LED bulb". There's no such thing as "DOT approval". North American vehicle safety regulations don't work on an approval basis, they work on an autocertification basis. That may seem like nitpicky quibbling over a word, but in the technical and legal sense it is a large and very important difference. At the practical level, it means whenever someone tells you something you're considering buying is "DOT approved", either they're lying to you or they don't know enough about what they're talking about to be a reliable source of information.

Fact is, the "LED bulbs" you're using are neither legal nor safe, for reasons that it looks like have already been explained to you. You are also mistaken about the lumen levels; the "LED bulbs" produce much less light than the filament bulb that's supposed to be in the lamp. The legality issue may not bother you...until you're involved in a crash and the non-spec bulbs in your brake lights are found to have been a causal factor, at which point you're looking at being saddled with some extremely expensive liability. Don't be quick to dismiss this, it can happen and it has happened.

Greta should chase down the Candlepower LED name

"candlepower" is a common term in the lighting world, and as far as I know Candlepower, Inc. has been around a great deal longer than this website. If you contact Candlepower, Inc. and ask them, they will tell you outright that their "LED bulbs" are non-DOT. They might hedge a little and say they're for "show and off road use only", but even that wouldn't be technically or legally accurate; Federal law says a regulated item of motor vehicle equipment must comply with all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards if it is physically capable of being installed on a vehicle certified by the manufacturer as complying with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. Federal law also prohibits the installation of devices or components (such as bulbs) that "render inoperative" any mandatory item of vehicle equipment. That phrase "render inoperative" is in quotes here because it means more than it looks like it means. It means a brake light (for example) is considered "inoperative" if it does not perform in accordance with the applicable regulations. It's not enough for it to light up visibly, it has to distribute the right amounts of light throughout the specified range of vertical and horizontal angles, with the required intensity ratio between the bright brake mode and the dim tail mode, and with at least the minimum required effectively-lit area. "LED bulbs" -- all of them -- render inoperative any vehicle lamp intended to take a filament bulb.

[Bullzeyebill]

It is looking like the use of a LED conversion for a tail light is illegal, so no more discussion re that topic.

Bill

[Scheinwerfermann]

I liked my JW Speaker #8700s on my Jeep ---- but I had two and also used supplemental (TruckLite) lighting. A single 8700 wouldn't be as good as a single HID like the Valeo/Sylvania XE7.

The XE7 beam would certainly be wider, but in terms of seeing distance I don't know that I'd have an easy time giving it to one or the other of these lamps. They're both excellent.

If you could make a bezel to fit one of those, you'd have a legal HID H4 in there.

No, he wouldn't. There's no such thing as a "legal HID H4". He'd have a legal HID high/low beam headlamp, though.

I've only seen them in action a couple of times, last in an H1 retrofit. The light was quite decent.
They look like bug-eyes though.

It looks as if you're referring to a Hummer H1 rather than to an H1 bulb, yes? I agree, the XE7 is a fugly-looking lamp. It works well, but not everyone will smile at the appearance.

[Hilldweller]

The XE7 beam would certainly be wider, but in terms of seeing distance I don't know that I'd have an easy time giving it to one or the other of these lamps. They're both excellent.

It looks as if you're referring to a Hummer H1 rather than to an H1 bulb, yes? I agree, the XE7 is a fugly-looking lamp. It works well, but not everyone will smile at the appearance.

The XE7 beam was lots wider ---- fuller-looking too, if you know what I mean. The LEDs looked sharper though.
Does that make sense?


H1 Hummer, right. I took a picture of it in the daytime to show the lights. Let me look for it....
Looks like Steve Buscemi.

[cy]

No, actually "DOT approved" means someone's telling you a fib in order to get you to buy this "LED bulb". There's no such thing as "DOT approval". North American vehicle safety regulations don't work on an approval basis, they work on an autocertification basis. That may seem like nitpicky quibbling over a word, but in the technical and legal sense it is a large and very important difference. At the practical level, it means whenever someone tells you something you're considering buying is "DOT approved", either they're lying to you or they don't know enough about what they're talking about to be a reliable source of information.

sure seems the term DOT approved is used all over the place... helmets for instance have DOT approved plastered all over .... after digging a bit, DOT doesn't approve anything, they do set standards. evidently when a mfg meets those standards, they label it DOT approved.

will have to do a bit of night time research ... viewing different angles with LED 1157 in place.

[Scheinwerfermann]

sure seems the term DOT approved is used all over the place.

That's true. It still doesn't mean anything.

after digging a bit, DOT doesn't approve anything, they do set standards.

Correct.

evidently when a mfg meets those standards, they label it DOT approved.

Not quite. Any such a labelling would be noncompliant with the actual requirements for labelling. In most cases, the required marking is DOT, together with whatever fiducial marks might be required on any particular piece of equipment. On headlamps, for example, the fiducial marks may include a bulb type designator, an aim type designator, a light source type designator, and/or others. If the headlamp meets the motorcycle headlamp requirements and not the non-motorcycle requirements, but is physically capable of being installed in a non-motorcycle vehicle, it must be marked "MOTORCYCLE" in letters at least 3mm high. Helmets have their own marking protocol, but "DOT approved" isn't included in it.

will have to do a bit of night time research ... viewing different angles with LED 1157 in place.

By all means peer at your lights after dark, but this is not research -- it's subjective impressions which are of no reliable use in assessing the safety performance of a vehicle lighting device.

You may want to look at the pictorial here. It's on an old car rather than a motorcycle, but it's applicable.