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Thread: Ideas for a mega light

  1. #1

    Default Ideas for a mega light

    Has anyone got any ideas for a big [moderation - unnecessarily vulgar term deleted] mega light?

    I did a dive the other week and one of the guys was wielding a dpv mounted (and powered) 200w hmi from silent submersion.

    Now I was packing a fair bit of fire power in my triple XML primary (3amp /w optic) and 2 heads video setup of 9 xmls (2.2amp no optic).
    The HMI (or death ray as they call it) was clearly more powerful and I felt inferior.

    Given this I'm on a mission to build something bigger as an off camera lighting option. That much light too near the camera will just flare out, so it has to be something with a fair bit of throw and be used by model no cameraman. I'm thinking 40-60 degrees would be nice.

    I've considered the following:

    - 18 single xmls with single optics (very laborious)
    - 6 triple xmls with optics (makes head very big)

    Drive it using multiple h6flex drivers.

    I'd like to use 12-14v power sources. 4S or 5S lipo big blocks might do the trick.

    Housing will be custom but I'd like to keep the head within 120mm OD but smaller the better. I assume a cable to external battery can is a fact of life, but not desirable.

    Ideas, suggestion and/or condemnation welcome.
    Last edited by DM51; 12-02-2011 at 08:29 AM.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* Packhorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Really you need to find an optic that suits and then use as many as you can fit while at the same time finding a way to wire them all up to represent a desirable load.


    To be honest I hate to admit it but you are probably better off with HID. It will be cheaper, more efficient and simpler.

  3. #3

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    Do you mean HID or HMI?

    From what little i know of HMI, 200w seams to do what I want but is rather large when you factor the in the driver. Definitely not cheap either At $600-1000 or bulb, ballast and igniter. I didn't imagine an LED solution would be all that cheap, but $400-500 should do it on LEDs, drivers and optics.

    Historically, HID technology and I haven't been the best of friend as I'm like to turn it on and off on my schedule, not its. Bulbs didn't last too long and they had all that brown/grey burn on them. I was hoping to get abetted colour temp out of LED too, HID blows for video in that regard (for my liking anyway).

    This is a pic of the SS monster.



    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  4. #4
    Flashaholic* lucca brassi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    HMI = HID same [moderation - unnecessarily vulgar term deleted] ,-)

    Hydrargyrum medium-arc iodide, or HMI, is a Osram brand metal-halide gas discharge medium arc-length lamp manufactured for the film and entertainment industry. Hydrargyrum is Latin for mercury (Hg). The term HMI has become a genericized trademark for all similar high-quality metal-halide lamps made for film and entertainment, regardless of manufacturer.
    An HMI lamp uses mercury vapour mixed with metal halides in a quartz-glass envelope, with two tungsten electrodes of medium arc separation. Unlike traditional lighting units using incandescent light bulbs, HMIs need electrical ballasts, which are separated from the head via a header cable, to limit current and supply the proper voltage. The lamp operates by creating an electrical arc between two electrodes within the bulb that excites the pressurized mercury vapour and metal halides, and provides very high light output with greater efficacy than incandescent lighting units. The efficiency advantage is near fourfold, with approximately 85–108 lumens per watt of electricity. Unlike tungsten-halogen lamps where the halide gas is used to regenerate the filament and keep the evaporated tungsten from darkening, the mercury vapour and the metal halides in HMI lamps are what emit the light. The high CRI and color temperature are due to the specific lamp chemistries.
    maybe the simpliest way is to buy used reflector (with balast ) on eBay and put it in proper housing with DC/AC inverter . Looking on German ebay smaller reflectors are not so expensive
    Last edited by DM51; 12-02-2011 at 08:32 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by lucca brassi View Post
    HMI = HID same shit ,-)
    I thought they were in the same family, didn't know they were the same thing with a 'commerical' name.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    I'm a firm believer in "Quantity having a quality all it's own" and using single light source for photography is just non optimal on land or sea, even IF it's the sun ;-)

    So I've been toying with the following concept framing where the lights are removable and independently controlled and an expectation that I'd potentially have 2 of these beasts at some point.
    Kinda why I was asking about water plugable connectors in another thread, the ability to pull a head and attach to a backup battery canister as a drop light makes me drool.



    The two heads I'm playing with currently are a spot using an XM-L at 3Amps and the AHorton Aspheric and the one shown below which is 6 XP-Gs at 1.5AMP and no optics. (XP-G head has random on/off issue *sigh)
    I'm willing to trade lumens for higher CRI, thus the XP-Gs which are 90+ but frankly the LED I really want to try is this one from cutter http://cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut1107
    I still have no clue what driver(s) would be best for this baby though. (Suggestions????)
    Other options later would be high output UV.



  7. #7

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    How big is that multi led head in that cad image? I'm thinking about something like that, where each circle is an XML triple. I'm thinking 6 x triples powered by 3 x h6flex drivers (each driving 2 triple boards with various power levels). Unfortunately this will mean 3 piezo buttons as I'm told you can't run multiple flex drivers off one switch. My biggest issue is the size of the job, which won't fit on my little lathe.

    The other driver I quite like is the rcd-24, but it can only go to 1200ma. I've found 2 in parallel driving a XML triple at 2400ma hits the sweet spot though in terms of output and efficiency for my mind anyway. They're so simple, don't need heat sinking and leave nothing exposed electrically so you can poke them in any old housing without too much concern. They also take up to 36v I think so work on almost any battery. Only issue is you need an external switch, not piezos which I like.


    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  8. #8

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by betti154 View Post
    How big is that multi led head in that cad image? I'm thinking about something like that, where each circle is an XML triple. I'm thinking 6 x triples powered by 3 x h6flex drivers (each driving 2 triple boards with various power levels). Unfortunately this will mean 3 piezo buttons as I'm told you can't run multiple flex drivers off one switch. My biggest issue is the size of the job, which won't fit on my little lathe.
    Each cell is a cut down D-Mag at 39.5mm, the diameter of the frame is 130mm by 10mm thick (thickness can vary)

    I only have a mini-lathe myself, so the large frame would be sculpted from a simple clay mold using liquid plastic http://www.smooth-on.com/Urethane-Pl...209/index.html

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codiak View Post
    Each cell is a cut down D-Mag at 39.5mm, the diameter of the frame is 130mm by 10mm thick (thickness can vary)

    I only have a mini-lathe myself, so the large frame would be sculpted from a simple clay mold using liquid plastic http://www.smooth-on.com/Urethane-Pl...209/index.html
    Interesting approach with the plastic moulding approach. I was thinking one big sucker, but sanity might prevail with a modular design.


    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Members are reminded that this is a family-oriented forum. Please do not use inappropriate or vulgar language.
    Resistance is futile...

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* Barbarin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Get a new Citizen CLL050 COB 5000ºK , with 17000 lm @ 200 Watt. That one would be a killer. I saw them in action, and in fact I'm using them for more boring things such as street lights.
    Fiat lux

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* Barbarin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    More information con Citizen COB LEDs.

    In short, with models CLL050, CLL040 and CLL030 you are getting 17500, 12000 and 5700 lm respectively. Sure, because of its footprint you are going to need a big reflector, but not as big as with regular COB's, because its diameter is quite small, 33 mm, 22 mm and 14 mm.

    Regards,

    Javier
    Last edited by Barbarin; 12-02-2011 at 10:25 AM.
    Fiat lux

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* 350xfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    How about 16,000 SST-90's running on a 46,000 18650 battery pack charged by a 10KW solar panel array! That should make about 40,000,000 lumens...
    http://tlslights.com/ your source for quality affordable dive lights, Mag-lite conversions and weapon lights. Now a Federal Firearms Dealer.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by 350xfire View Post
    How about 16,000 SST-90's running on a 46,000 18650 battery pack charged by a 10KW solar panel array! That should make about 40,000,000 lumens...
    I like it... Now to find some VC

  15. #15

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by 350xfire View Post
    How about 16,000 SST-90's running on a 46,000 18650 battery pack charged by a 10KW solar panel array! That should make about 40,000,000 lumens...
    Gosh while you're at it build a nuclear plant.

    One xml is pretty freaking bright, maybe for a video light you could put 16 in there and call it a day...a 160watt light will be killer for video.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    I've thought about this some more and whilst 16,000 SST-90's sounds appealing, I think 18 XML's might be more realistic. I also looked into the HMI/HID solution and it doesn't seem that attractive to me from a size, cost, knowledge and effort perspective.

    Running some quick numbers on cost of an LED solution:

    18 * 20mm XMLs - $110
    18 * single optics 15 degrees each - $40
    3 * h6flex drivers - $150
    3 * Apem Piezos - $120
    2 * 6000mah lipo 4S batteries - $130
    Stock - $100
    Hardware - $50

    Rough total - $700, for up to 18,000 lumen.

    To me this makes a lot of sense, though will be a fair bit of effort to build given the 18 individual XMLs need to be wired. I think I can mill the front bezel for the optics on a small CAD mill, so that part shouldn't be too hard. I don't imagine heat sinking will be too much of an issue with ~140mm OD of alloy making up the main part of the head.

    HID solutions were $600+ and then I'd have to deal with the power issues.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by betti154 View Post
    I've thought about this some more and whilst 16,000 SST-90's sounds appealing, I think 18 XML's might be more realistic. I also looked into the HMI/HID solution and it doesn't seem that attractive to me from a size, cost, knowledge and effort perspective.

    Running some quick numbers on cost of an LED solution:

    18 * 20mm XMLs - $110
    18 * single optics 15 degrees each - $40
    3 * h6flex drivers - $150
    3 * Apem Piezos - $120
    2 * 6000mah lipo 4S batteries - $130
    Stock - $100
    Hardware - $50

    Rough total - $700, for up to 18,000 lumen.

    To me this makes a lot of sense, though will be a fair bit of effort to build given the 18 individual XMLs need to be wired. I think I can mill the front bezel for the optics on a small CAD mill, so that part shouldn't be too hard. I don't imagine heat sinking will be too much of an issue with ~140mm OD of alloy making up the main part of the head.

    HID solutions were $600+ and then I'd have to deal with the power issues.
    I'm find these XM-Ls more interesting do to high CRI values http://cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut1107 with the 20degree Cute-3m optics.
    The input power changes for these XM-Ls requiring 6volt and 2Amps per LED which is limiting driver of choices. From Taskled its looking like the HC66 is the only option for a 2Amp driver.
    Additionally, I plan on using the Halltg rather than the Piezo.... I hate magnites, but a simple on off is all I want right now.
    and Stock for me = 7 Mags ;-)

    Given that Cutter isn't shipping these yet not a lot of testing can I do.

    However,
    7 x 3-up Cutter XMLs - $210
    7 x Optics - $35






  18. #18

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    I'll have to look some more at those U3 XMLs. I very much like the quality of the warmer light, but found I was compromising on intensity too much with the warmer XMLs. I have two light heads with 5 XMLs at 3000ma, and the 6000K has a notably high impact underwater than the 4000K version.

    I initially ruled out using 6 * triple XML boards and optics because I couldn't drill the 35mm holes into the bezel. I might revisit that now since I'm going to use the computerised mill. Will making wiring much easier, though the HEAD Will be deeper due to deeper optics.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    It's more about total spectrum than how bright with the higher CRI.
    For all those lumens your trading too much red.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codiak View Post
    It's more about total spectrum than how bright with the higher CRI.
    For all those lumens your trading too much red.
    Funny, I looked at it from the other direction. No point having the best colour if I can't expose the image to begin with.

    I've also found really warm light can look odd in cooler water that we typical dive in. Eg Rust on wrecks look too red, etc...


    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  21. #21

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by betti154 View Post
    Funny, I looked at it from the other direction. No point having the best colour if I can't expose the image to begin with. [/url]
    Yeah, but In this case we get to keep the lumens too

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* Packhorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Think about this.

    You want to have a natural looking light right?

    What is the colour or natural light at 40 meters?


    Personally I say dont get too hung up on colour temp. Go for the highest lumen lowest K LED you can find.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by Packhorse View Post
    Think about this.

    You want to have a natural looking light right?

    What is the colour or natural light at 40 meters?


    Personally I say dont get too hung up on colour temp. Go for the highest lumen lowest K LED you can find.
    IMHO, this logic applies only in certain circumstances, typically those where you have little or no sun light. Doesn't work too well in shallow tropical conditions as you can't just white-balance to a known temp and expect good results.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  24. #24

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by Packhorse View Post
    Think about this.

    You want to have a natural looking light right?

    What is the colour or natural light at 40 meters?


    Personally I say dont get too hung up on colour temp. Go for the highest lumen lowest K LED you can find.
    I typically don't use a flash while diving, preferring to stick with ambient/video lights/flashlight, and adjust ISO when required.

    And while I'm just starting to evaluate the benefits of high CRI I'm far from sold on its benefits over lumens.
    However; I am convinced that some of my LED hating dive buddies prefer their HIDs specifically because of color rendering.

    Even so there's nothing natural about light of any kind in a cave so the broader the spectrum the light the better to my mind.

    Of course the red gets filtered out no matter what we do... it's only the degree we can attempt to control.


    With the new XM-L EWs I'm hopeful we no longer have to make drastic sacrifices to either output/color/efficiency.

    And I'm enjoying the easy viewing of my high cri XP-G(q2).
    Now that the current draw is reliable I hope to get some solid testing done
    Last edited by Codiak; 12-05-2011 at 08:50 AM.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* lucca brassi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    this should works

    Last edited by lucca brassi; 12-07-2011 at 02:12 AM.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    ROFL
    Resistance is futile...

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbarin View Post
    More information con Citizen COB LEDs.

    In short, with models CLL050, CLL040 and CLL030 you are getting 17500, 12000 and 5700 lm respectively. Sure, because of its footprint you are going to need a big reflector, but not as big as with regular COB's, because its diameter is quite small, 33 mm, 22 mm and 14 mm.

    Regards,

    Javier
    Any idea what driver and reflector to use?
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  28. #28

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    I've been thinking about this mega light desig some more. I think I've come up with something that meets the design brief, however is more expensive to build than I'd like and I have a few reservations with function.

    Basically I'm thinking about 4 x 7up XML U2 boards /w optics in a single head. Each 7up to be driven by two parallel RECOM RCD-24 drivers at 1200ma (total 2400ma to each 7up), using the analogue dimming feature of the driver to control power output. Power it using 8S lipo batteries, probably 1S2P turnigy Nano-tech though I've not looked into this too much.

    I was thinking of machining a ~120mm diameter head to house the 4 7up boards, optics and drivers, which is cabled to a canister. The head would effectively be one large alloy heatsink so I don't think cooling should be too much of an issue in water. The ~23000 lumens this will output will presumably do the job, which is to be an off camera video solution, so it's about lighting a large cave room or blanketing a wreck in pitch black conditions (ahead or behind the camera, but not on the camera).

    My concerns:

    1. Cost of parts is about $950 each and I want to build two. Without a specific return on investment, this is a little high.
    2. I don't like the U2 colour temp for video ie. it's too cool
    3. I'm concerned the amount of light, relative size of the head and width of the 7up optics will be too tight a beam, meaning lots of flare which I don't really want.

    One of the biggest questions I still have is how necessary is an optic/reflector? The video lights I've built with bare LED emittor do a great job and are easy to build in any configuration, but they are lacking throw. I'd like this light to throw much further with minimal/no flare but I'm not sure this is possible. Ultimately I wonder if producing that much light without a reflector will still give me enough throw, or will all the intensity fall off real quickly like it does with say 9 XMLs (no optic).

    If anyone has any thoughts I'd like to hear them.
    Last edited by betti154; 01-26-2012 at 05:07 PM.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* Klem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    All in proportion...high output requires commensurate power to be of any use. Can your battery handle the demand 'C' rate?

    All possible, but a bigger light, with more bulk below the water to manage, more weight above water. Water is the perfect heat sink, equivalent to active cooling above water so as long as you don't plan to use it above water you are not obligated to have the metal behind the emitters and drivers overly bulky.

    Can't imagine more LED's being any more than area lighting with no further penetration, but if that is what you want then all good and I will certainly be looking forward to seeing the photos.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Ideas for a mega light

    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    All in proportion...high output requires commensurate power to be of any use. Can your battery handle the demand 'C' rate?
    Using a buck solution power draw of the solution would be 9600ma (~190w), and since I want one hour burn time at minimum, we're talking ~1C.

    I was thinking about building an 8S4P using 18650 cells or go with two of the lipo packs in parallel.

    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

    I'm not too fussed about the size of the head or canister. It would be a mission specific tool, used by a lighting guy so definitely a manageable task when that is all you have to do.
    Regards,
    Damien Siviero
    http://damiensiviero.com

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