I miss the controversial (but un-nasty) CAFE posts

[brightnorm]

Where have they gone? Have we gotten so saccherine-nice that we no longer feel comfortable expressing strong opinions while respecting the other person's point of view and conducting ourselves like gentlemen?

Brightnorm

[Kiessling]

maybe it has something to do with the recent uproar on CPF and that everyone is a bit more cautious these days?
those threads were mostly political or religious threads concerning internal U.S. affairs and ended nastily quite often .... it might be better this way, this is a flashlight community after all, and conflicts between members because of other things could be considered disturbing.
often, being a gentleman ends when important beliefs and opinions are touched, and things get hot quickly.
bernhard

[ikendu]

I miss them too but I don't think such posts work here on this forum (maybe they don't really "work" anywhere). So...rather than mess up a perfectly nice technical forum...I'm trying only to post on technical topics.

[oldgrandpajack]

I wasn't reading or posting on the CAFE forum when the blow ups occurred in the past. I experienced one this weekend. The moderator has a thankless job and I don't know the capabilities of the software. Could be that the only recourse available, to the moderator, is to freeze the thread.

I am shocked that legitimate political discourse was stopped because of one individual's behavior. Would it not have been better to cut off that individual and let the discussion continue. I believe that the individual took advantage of the fact that the thread would be frozen because of his behavior. Freezing the thread will only serve to reinforce that behavior. This is the kind of behavior seen in totalitarian states. Both socialist and fascist (left and right) states discourage dissent. Mature adults can have polite discussions even when completely polarized about the subject matter. There has always been and always will be those that don't want opposing viewpoints, about many subjects, to be heard. We can not allow those people to prevail. This country is founded on the right of the people to express themselves freely. We should always try to do so in a civil and respectful manner. America wouldn't work without our freedom of speech.
oldgrandpajack

[Kiessling]

a VERY good point, John.
bernhard

[smokinbasser]

This is first and foremost a flashlight and flashlight related forum. I have yet to see or hear a flashlight with a political agenda. There are thousands of more suitable soapboxes for political fights or religious diatribe. I come to CPF for and to enjoy the flashlight centered posts.To post politically sensitive drivel in a flashlight forum would be like going to a gourmet cooking forum and starting a thread on the merits of chainsaw A versus chainsaw B.one subject has no connection with the other. I try to be open minded if at all possible, If somebody shows me a battery that has a political view and it can express it self then it might be relevent.I wandered over here from the knife forums. Knives and flashlights have a relationship in that both are tools , both can be utilized for emergency situations and both can be collected. Both can be modded/customized. Apples and oranges, both are edible, both grow on trees, both make good beverages.What relationship does politics have with flashlights?

[logicnerd411]

IF 100% of our members can't behave themselves concerning political and touchy issues (showing your view while respecting the other view), I personally think political discussions should be banned completely.

"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all."

Dan

[js]

For what it's worth:

This is a flashlight centered forum: CPF! No argument. Yet the CAFE is an "OFF-TOPIC" forum within The Candle Power Forums. Many of us like to be able to discuss completely unrelated issues. Many of us like being able to ask completely un-flashlight related questions. Many people are part of CPF because of the great community it is, in addition to an interest in flashlights. CPF is a great bunch of people--most of us, most of the time, anyway. What I find really very interesting and encouraging, is that I DO relate to so many of the non-flashlight related views/threads/discussions here. Someone said it the other day about the scouting thread. He said something like, "where else could you bring up scouting and have a bunch of positive reactions?"

I agree with brightnorm. It is entirely possible to discuss sensitive and controversial topics in a manner that both presents our own opinions and respects those of others. Granted it is hard to walk that line, but that's why we NEED to be able to practice it! That's why the CAFE should be here in CPF. That's why we should all try to set the example and apologize if we fail and just do better next time. If someone is really out of line then he or she should be given a warning, etc. all the usual stuff. I have been astonished at the high level of conduct here on CPF, and it has inspired me to improve my own conduct. I am in a long tedius process of breaking my own tendencies to be argumentative and obnoxious. Taking part in CPF has been one of the most helpful things I've done in years. I admire so many of you on this forum. You have earned my sincere respect.

If we get rid of any controversial or off-topic discussions here on CPF, we will be the less for it. These discussions offer an opportunity for gentlemanly (and lady-like) conduct to shine. Also, it offers us an opportunity to help each other. I for one was very moved by shankus's thread about his murdered sister. So much of the internet these days is a traffic in vice and dross. We NEED forums like CPF-THE CAFE, and we need to be able to discuss important things. Sometimes the discussion will get out of hand and tempers will flare. But I think that's a risk worth taking, provided it doesn't make too much work for the moderators. Perhaps that is what we should be discussing: how best to handle and distribute the work involved. I don't know so much about that, and the moderators have my appreciation for the work they do, but I for one very much like THE CAFE here at CPF.

[X-CalBR8]

logicnerd411 said: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all."

I'm certainly glad that our founding fathers didn't take that attitude or else the U.S. would still be subject to the British crown and would likely be paying taxes to them today.

Well guys, the last time that I brought up that we should have the right to express ourselves freely on the forums, Sasha accused me of "baiting" so I'm going to try to stay out of this discussion as much as I can, but...

Funny how when it's something that somebody doesn't *want* to hear, it's labeled as "baiting", "trolling" "flaming" or whatever new slang term is popular to label something with, but if it's something that somebody wants to hear, that doesn't get labeled as anything in particular and is considered to be perfectly acceptable. This country is founded by people putting forth ideas that not everybody *wanted* to hear at the time, but ideas that they needed to hear.

As an example, if not for people being free to express an unpopular viewpoint during the course of the history of this country there might still be slavery today. As I recall, abolitionism was not a very popular idea in it's day. I guess if abolition was to have came up today and people were trying to freely discuss it on the net, moderators would label them as "baiters", "flamers", and "trollers" to, just like they do with people with unpopular viewpoints today.

[js]

X-CalBR8,

Forgive me for saying this, but I think that your tone is perhaps not as facilitating of proper discussion as it could be. If you would, allow me to re-write some of it in a different tone:
[ QUOTE ]
logicnerd411 said: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all."
I'm certainly glad that our founding fathers didn't take that attitude or else the U.S. would still be subject to the British crown and would likely be paying taxes to them today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, how would this be instead:

logicnerd411: I agree that when we discuss things we should do so in as polite and nice a manner as possible, but I disagree that we should be banned from discussing certain topics. I feel so indebted to our national founding fathers and for all of the people who died for our rights, including the right to free speech and dissent. Wouldn't it be better to take a softer line, in light of these great sacrifices?

Or instead of
[ QUOTE ]
Funny how when it's something that somebody doesn't *want* to hear, it's labeled as "baiting", "trolling" "flaming" or whatever new slang term is popular to label something with, but if it's something that somebody wants to hear, that doesn't get labeled as anything in particular and is considered to be perfectly acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not:

I honestly feel that those of us of a certain political orientation get closer scrutiny than others. I know we may be unpopular on this board, but it can't hurt anyone for us to express our opinions, can it?

ETC.

I understand your frustration, X-cal, but one of the most important things for us to do to facilitate discussion, is to resist the urge to jump to what may be seen as accusations and soap-boxes and high-horses. Even though they may not be, the tone is ALL IMPORTANT.

Is that fair? Do you agree?

[James S]

Something our founding fathers were extremely good at was discourse and debate and it's applied use to get the response they were interested in. If it was to inflame mens hearts to their cause they could do that, if it was to play down the international political ramifications of something to rally folks to their cause they could do that too.

Ben Franklin worked extremely hard to find the right words to convince the French to help out. All of the folks working had to watch their P's and Q's so that that could convince the folks locally that were still loyal to the crown (or enough of them anyway) to their side of the argument.

At that point any brash and inflammatory statements would have belittled and hurt their cause.

There are no banned subjects on CPF, but there are banned methods of expression. I don't think forcing people to think and understand what they are saying and how it will affect others is too much to ask here. If you want to scream "BUSH SUCKS" buy a bumper sticker. If you want to discuss politics or gun control with folks that might have a different stance, try to understand them so you can convert them or be converted by them depending on what you learn. Then this is the place to do it.

[DavidW]

Jahn forbad political discussion way back when. I'm beginning to see his wisdom.

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

But this IS the Cafe after all!!!

I don't come to this 'room' expecting ONLY flashlight discussion.

[X-CalBR8]

hawkhkg11 said yesterday: "This board is heavily slanted towards the right..."

Sasha said yesterday: "He is absolutely correct. That is really no one's fault. It's just the way things happen."

I would submit that this is not "just the way things happen", I would say that very few things 'just happen' in this world, people make them happen. When non-"conservative" viewpoints are threatened with censorship because they are labeled as "baiting", "flaming" or "trolling", then of course the board will be seen as "slanted to the right" because anyone with any other viewpoint will be discouraged from further posting when they already know, in advance, what the reception will likely be for their equally valid viewpoint.

As most everyone here probably already knows, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican so nobody can accuse me of taking sides on this issue or anything (I'm against them both and the corporations that own them). I do, however, believe in being fair though. If "conservative" viewpoints are going to be allowed to be stated, unmolested, on the board, then all other viewpoints should be allowed to, without being labeled and/or censored.

Someone sent me an e-mail yesterday (I don't wish to name names) with this very same sentiment. I felt that it was a perfectly valid viewpoint, so I decided to post the viewpoint and take the heat for it myself.

So far as banning all political discussion on CPF, why do such a very drastic thing? It makes no sense. If a very few overly sensitive people get their feelings hurt because people don't agree with their point of view, then big deal. I would say that 99% of us here can discuss pretty well any subject without going off crying about it to some moderator later. If someone is going to be the kind of person to get their feelings hurt over politics, religion or anything else that is the least bit controversial, then they would likely find something else to get their feelings hurt over if politics were, all of a sudden, to be fully censored from the board.

The fact is that there will always be people out there that look for reasons to be offended, but if the whole world was to cater to this 1% minority, then what kind of world would this be? Well, I guess that there are a few places in California where they would be a little bit better equipped to answer that particular question than me, so I'll leave that one for one of them to answer. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Just kidding guys, no offense to our Californian members, just poking a little fun with your politics out there. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
X-CalBR8 said:
hawkhkg11 said yesterday: "This board is heavily slanted towards the right..."

Sasha said yesterday: "He is absolutely correct. That is really no one's fault. It's just the way things happen."

I would submit that this is not "just the way things happen", I would say that very few things 'just happen' in this world, people make them happen.

<font color="red">*Um... no... really... I have no control over the demographics of CPF. My "powers" aren't THAT great... regardless of what you might think.* </font>
When non-"conservative" viewpoints are threatened with censorship because they are labeled as "baiting", "flaming" or "trolling", then of course the board will be seen as "slanted to the right" because anyone with any other viewpoint will be discouraged from further posting when they already know, in advance, what the reception will likely be for their equally valid viewpoint.

<font color="red"> *Um... no. Actually what is discouraged is the flaming, baiting and trolling. The opinion is rather a moot point. The wording and attitude is what gets posters in trouble. What is it they say? "Presentation is everything!". I believe js was trying to make that point to you a few posts back. </font>

... If "conservative" viewpoints are going to be allowed to be stated, unmolested, on the board, then all other viewpoints should be allowed to, without being labeled and/or censored.

<font color="red">*And they are... when they are presented in a way that is not flaming, baiting or trolling. Believe it or not, some of this "censorship" that you continue to harp on has been commited by fellow "liberals" who even they feel the line of decency and maturity has been crossed. FWIW, the last thread that I closed was because of a post which I happened to agree with 100% but the presentation was way out of line. So you see? I really don't care what the "message" is as long as it doesn't flame, bait or troll.</font>

If a very few overly sensitive people get their feelings hurt because people don't agree with their point of view, then big deal.

<font color="red">*Then why is it that you continue to harp on this topic? You have had it explained to you many times why things are the way they are here on CPF. You are one of the very few who doesn't like it. Big deal. Shall we move on now? </font>

I would say that 99% of us here can discuss pretty well any subject without going off crying about it to some moderator later. If someone is going to be the kind of person to get their feelings hurt over politics, religion or anything else that is the least bit controversial, then they would likely find something else to get their feelings hurt over if politics were, all of a sudden, to be fully censored from the board.

<font color="red">*Politics are not going to be censored from the board... yet. However, seeing as how the majority of CPF's members seem to like the fact that mud-slinging, flaming, baiting, and trolling will not be tolerated, I guess I have to look at the minority and say... Big Deal! ... move on. </font>

The fact is that there will always be people out there that look for reasons to be offended, but if the whole world was to cater to this 1% minority, then what kind of world would this be?

<font color="red">*You just made my point for me. </font>



[/ QUOTE ]

[js]

X-CalBR8,

I'm sorry that that has been your experience here. I have had the opposite experience. I have found that it's amazing what is posted and discussed without the thread being banned or blowing up into a flame war. Check out the thread "Poll: Final Arrangements." That's not the exact title, perhaps, but close enough for you to search for it. Anyway, check it out. I posted a very Roman Catholic response in regards to that poll and it did not explode into a flame war on religion. Granted, you could say that that was a "right-wing" view point. Maybe, maybe not. If you read it, you will see that I present a VERY unpopular viewpoint, regarless of "right" or "left" and yet, I specifically got a response which said "I disagree strongly with you, but I did read and do respect your view." It's amazing really.

Again, I think the key is not get in anyone's face. For example, you said:

[ QUOTE ]
So far as banning all political discussion on CPF, why do such a very drastic thing? It makes no sense. If a very few overly sensitive people get their feelings hurt because people don't agree with their point of view, then big deal. I would say that 99% of us here can discuss pretty well any subject without going off crying about it to some moderator later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you see that you are expressing total disdain for anyone who happens to be in this group that you've labeled "overly sensitive", saying they've gone "crying to the moderator"? I mean, what if it was your wife or sister or mother? Wouldn't you express this opinion in a different way? Why inflate things to a world-wide scale and insinuate at the outset that the moderators are specifically cultivating a right-wing group? You can't really think that, can you? Why not try the experiment of expressing an "unpopular" opinion in a mellower tone?

Please don't get me wrong! When I was in college, loud, agressive, heated debating at all hours of the day and night, was one of my FAVORITE activities. I have to very deliberately and consciously stop myself from falling back into that habit. Not too long ago, I would have agreed with you 100%. But then I fell in love with, and married a wonderful, and very sensitive woman. She has taught me that a person can have strong convictions and yet not have to rub people the wrong way all the time (that would be me [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] bull in a china shop if ever there was one).

On the other hand, I think the end of your post is great. I love the tone:

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I guess that there are a few places in California where they would be a little bit better equipped to answer that particular question than me, so I'll leave that one for one of them to answer. Just kidding guys, no offense to our Californian members, just poking a little fun with your politics out there. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

To be frank, I feel somewhat out of line here, because I seem to be setting myself up as some kind of master of tone and etiquette, or something. I in no way regard myself as this, and I do not intend to play the teacher here! I am only stating my opinion because it presents itself to me so forcefully that I have taken the risk in the hopes of adding positively to the discussion.

If you think I'm wrong and out of line, please accept my apologies in advance.

[hawkhkg11]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm personally offended by people who are easily offended. I HATE sensitive people. I think it's really just a shadow for them to hide under their insecurities. If you can't logically argue why you don't agree with something, then perhaps you don't really know the truth as to why you believe it or not.

I'm not really offended by much of anything except the three I's (Ignorance, Indoctrination, Ideology).

I actually made that up myself. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[X-CalBR8]

It doesn't seem like a minority of people that care about free speech to me. Why would this thread have even been started in the first place if not for a lot of people out there that don't like censorship of topics and ideas? Notice that it was not *me* who started this thread. I had nothing to do with it. I only commented on it.

If it has gotten to the point that most people in this country don't care about the freedom to speak their own minds in an open forum then things are much worse in the ol' U.S. of A. than I had ever imagined. At any rate, we are certainly not a 1% minority, even if we are outnumbered.

So far as why I posted about the whiners, it's because I've been lead to believe that that is why there is censorship and thread closings on the board to begin with is because people were getting their feelings hurt and bothering moderators about it and the moderators were getting tired of dealing with them. If this is not why there is censorship on the board, then I can see no excusable reason for it at all.

So far as whining to moderators, this is something that I have *NEVER* done and I don't like being accused of it. Anything that I have to say can be said publicly for all to see. I have nothing to hide. I have never sent you a private message and I have only ever sent DavidW one since I've been a member, and I've been a member almost since the beginning of CPF, because I happen to share the love of flashlights and I happen to like most of the people that I have met here and I value their opinions.

I also happen to enjoy talking politics here in the Café to, because most of the people here are very politically enlightened people when compared to the populous in general, but when there is a censorship of ideas on one side or the other, then no effective political discussion can occur because one side or the other will be apprehensive about posting their views.

Also worth noting, I did not invent the idea that non-"conservative" views were being held down by being labeled as "baiting" or "flamebait" or whatever, I clearly stated that it was an idea that someone had e-mailed to me yesterday but I felt that the view held enough merit for a public discussion of it.

[James S]

X-CalBR8, I hope you're keeping links to the threads you think have been closed due to right wing censorship on the board. Perhaps some links would be illuminating.

Personally I don't know what Brightnorm was talking about in the first post. If anything the days of sweet dissagreements and scientifically detached discussions in the cafe are long over and people just want to get mad at each other.

Stateing a leftist viewpoint on something here isn't baiting/flaiming, but suggesting or implying that there is something wrong with the people who post to disagree with you certainly is.

There are those here that honeslty believe that I'm an unthinking tool of the establishment by taking all their propaganda to heart and actually believeing some of it. You'll have to put that aside and argue the points with me here rather than the fact that there is something wrong with me [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You'll also have to entertain the notion that I'm not an unthinking tool and that I might know exactly what I'm doing...

[X-CalBR8]

js: I have never taken offense to one of your post and I don't take offense to this one now. I'm even a little surprised that you would think that I would be offended by it. In fact, it takes a lot to offend me. If you have read very many of my post you will see that I hardly ever get offended by anyone no matter how much I disagree with their ideologies.

I do have to say that I am very offended by censorship of thoughts and ideas though, for many many reasons. Probably one of the most offensive things about censorship is that it gives far too much power into the hands of those that have their fingers on the censor button, metaphorically speaking. When a group of people have the power given to them to decide what is "appropriate speech" and what is "inappropriate speech", it will always lead to an oppression of thoughts and ideas and it will always lead to resentments. Again, just look at my abolitionist example from earlier. They called them every name in the book and put every negative label on them for trying to get an unpopular idea across to.

I remember when CPF was new that there was never a closed thread (at least that I ever saw), there was never any talk of censorship or anything like it and the whole board didn't go up in chaos like some seem to think that it would now if it wasn't censored. Most of us handled ourselves as adult and the 1% that didn't were mostly ignored. There was not wild chaos on the board then and I don't believe that there would be today if people were allowed to speak freely. I know that the board has grown a lot since those days, but I still don't think that there would be a significant problem if it was left uncensored.

So far as people that are easily offended goes, I have to admit that I find myself agreeing more with hawkhkg11 on that one. People that are easily offended are the bane of our entire political system. It is because of the 1% of the people out there that get offended at everything that we have most of the worst and most oppressive laws that we have on the books and this 1% are also why the U.S. has the richest lawyers in the world to. It is almost the American motto these days of 'if you are offended by something, take them to court'. This sort of thing has to be ended at some point or else you will live in fear of being sued each and every time you go out your door, because no matter how good and kind you are to others, you *will always* offend people. It's just a fact of life.

[Greta]

hawk... I couldn't agree more! Excellent post! Thank you!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

X-cal... let's read brightnorm's original post again... "I miss the controversial (but un-nasty) CAFE posts Where have they gone? Have we gotten so saccherine-nice that we no longer feel comfortable expressing strong opinions while respecting the other person's point of view and conducting ourselves like gentlemen?" ...

Indeed... where HAVE they gone? brightnorm is not lamenting that controversial posts are being zapped, he's lamenting that people can't seem to discuss a controversial topic without resorting to nastiness and flat out juvenile sandbox behavior. I happen to agree with him 100%! What you are not getting is that the topic itself and the opinion itself are not what are being disallowed. What is being disallowed is the method in which a poster chooses to express his opinion on a topic. I myself have closed topics about the Goncz flashlight because the posts were flaming and inappropriate. I have slapped people's wrists for promoting illegal activities. I have suggested that people remove links to photos or articles that are inappropriate. The majority of CPF DOES like it that way. Of course, I can't prove that... likewise you can't prove your claim either so I guess we're at a stand-still on that one.

As far as whining to the moderators, I'm sorry but it does appear as if that is exactly what you are doing in this thread... whining that your rights are being infringed upon and that you should be able to say anything you want in any way you want. Honestly, I have not received one PM or email from anyone complaining that their feelings have been hurt. YOU are the only one who consistantly complains... and that is the honest to God truth!

And finally...

[ QUOTE ]
Also worth noting, I did not invent the idea that non-"conservative" views were being held down by being labeled as "baiting" or "flamebait" or whatever, I clearly stated that it was an idea that someone had e-mailed to me yesterday but I felt that the view held enough merit for a public discussion of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one said you invented it... but you posted it. So you own it. Don't try to pass the buck off on someone else. You didn't have to post it if you didn't believe it... so now you take the heat for it. BTW... a post like that is pure and simple trolling. See my link in one of the other threads I closed.

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
I do have to say that I am very offended by censorship of thoughts and ideas though, for many many reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again... you are free to go anywhere else on the internet where you are not so oppressed. This is the way things are here at CPF. This is the way things will remain. No amount of outrage on your part is going to change that.

Seeing as how you seem to like CPF so much but you don't like the moderation of the Cafe, you can simply stay away from the Cafe and make your time at CPF less stressful. Many, many, many of our members do just that.

[X-CalBR8]

James said: "You'll also have to entertain the notion that I'm not an unthinking tool and that I might know exactly what I'm doing..."

I apologize if you ever got the impression that I was lumping you into that group of people, but you have to admit that there are an awful lot of them out there. I would be willing to venture a guess that over 50% of the people out there believe almost everything that they hear on the nightly news, nearly unquestioningly, and that's all that it takes to keep control in a democracy.

Also worth pointing out while on the subject, when I ask that people wake up and think for themselves instead of letting their T.V. do their thinking for them, I'm neither taking a Republican nor a Democratic stance because *all* political parties use this tactic of media manipulation as often as they have it in their power to do so. That is why we have to be on constant guard from both sides.

[doubleganger]

[ QUOTE ]
X-CalBR8 said:
If it has gotten to the point that most people in this country don't care about the freedom to speak their own minds in an open forum then .....

[/ QUOTE ]

X-Cal I consider myself to be neither conservative nor liberal, but a libertarian. Believe me when I say that I agree with just about every one of your posts that I have ever read. You are, however mistaken in referring to this as "an open forum" As has been pointed out before, this forum is in fact the private property of one DavidW and as owner and sole proprieter he has every right to set any and all rules regarding participation that he thinks are appropriate. We are all guests here and would be rude guests indeed to ignore those rules.

Nontheless, I do hope the rules continue to allow polite and restrained political discussions.

[BentHeadTX]

Discussing religion, politics or sex on the net is strange,
One of the things I learned on my overseas travels is the "Big Three" resembles a mine field to navigate. Learned a lot of information about the big three from Egyptians, Germans, Italians, Turks, Iraqis, Koreans, Greeks, French, Sicilians and those crazy Brits and Austrailians.
Conversing with people world-wide on the net is interesting, although tough to actually get your point across civally like you would in person. It can be done but there is always the one percenters that mess up the game. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whoopin.gif[/img]
I figure it this way, most of us can have a normal conversation about flashlights, batteries, lanterns, electronics etc. In the last year of being a CPF member, I have not had any personal attacks against me for not owning any Arcs, Surefires or Pelican flashlights. No one has threatened me because I don't use lithium power flashlights [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sssh.gif[/img] Never a "I am going to kick your current regulated ~!@#!"
As long as the politics, sex and religion does not cause a major disruption on the CPF as to cloud our member's advice on lighting. The flashlight made by _____ sucks because he is a ____ I come here to learn about my addiction and not politics and such. It is fun to chew the fat about certain things going on in the world on occasion though.
Just keep it light hearted and different views make the world go around.

[Tomas]

Getting back to the original post by Brightnorm, it does seem as though some of the spirit has gone out of the discussions recently. I can recall long, detailed discussions of nominally controversial subjects happening here. Discussions that garnered praise from assorted participants for their civility.

These days, for whatever reasons, there is much less of that - possibly none at all.

It doesn't appear to be based on any 'outside' happenings, but on something within CPF. I don't have any answers, in fact I barely have the questions, but I can feel it and it limits what I am at all comfortable saying publicly on CPF.

I wouldn't think I'd be considered a troublemaker or 'bad actor' on any board I've been on over the years, and certainly not this one, yet this month I have been accused of stalking, harassing and baiting with my public posts on CPF, and threatened once again with banishment from the realm.

Since I don't understand, I'm just withdrawing from a lot of the participation here. There are some of the activities on CPF that are important to me, so in order to keep up with them I'm keeping my head down and my mouth shut.

Brightnorm, I, too, feel that polite open discussion has suffered here in recent months, but I can't envision any fixes for that. That is something that is far, far above my level. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Hopefully, whatever is causing this odd feeling will be resolved, and once again open, easy discussion amongst friends will be the norm on CPF.

[X-CalBR8]

Well, Sasha, I guess it's fair to say that we will never see eye to eye on issues of free speech, but, in all seriousness, it's hard for me to understand why an American citizen would not fight for, nor strongly believe in and desire free speech in all aspects of their life, including message boards. To me, this is unfathomable.

You've accused me more than once lately of "baiting" and "trolling" you, but wouldn't your own last few comments directed toward me be considered to be the same "baiting" and "trolling" and/or "flaming" that you are advising us not to participate in on the board? By your own definition they would. For instance, I would not be taking the time out of my day to write this post if you had not baited me into doing so. Just think about it.

I think I will go outside now and do something more constructive. It's obvious that this is going nowhere and that it is only leading to bad feelings anyway. Nothing that I can say nor do can make a person care about such important fundamental ideals such as freedom of thought and speech (except perhaps to recommend a good history book). That is something that you will all have to work out for yourselves, on an individual basis, I suppose. I'm going to go outside and get some fresh air now, before the government decides to start taxing that to. Later all. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[js]

X-CalBR8,

There are two conflated realms being discussed here:

1. How things are at CPF
2. How things are in the good ol U.S. of A.

In my opinion, I think that you are not making enough of a distinction between them. I read your posts and I see you jump from something happening here to a sweeping political generalization about the entire country. My father is of the exact same opinion about the mass of people living here in the USA. He calls them the "sheeple". He believes that they believe whatever they read in the newspapers and see on TV. He is always lamenting the loss of free speech.

Let me throw something out there: it is my informed, considered opinion that most people are NOT idiots; that most people do NOT simply believe what they get from the media; and that most people are pretty decent, well intentioned people. Honestly, if you're going to make such generalizations, you should support them, instead of making bald assertions. This is a great topic of discussion, but a discussion is not simply stating "truths" and walking away. Support your view. Argue your point. Where do you get your political information? Do you travel to Iraq first hand, and gather material for a knock out expose? Do you consort with informed political experts placed in high places? Probably not. You probably get your information from the same places all the rest of us do: media, of one type or another. Why is your media good, and the "mainstream" media bad? I have seen first hand, several times, that the standards are sometimes significantly lower for alternative news and political sources (internet, radio, magazines, etc.) than for the decried "main-stream" media. I've noticed that the liberals claim it is biased to the right, and that the conservatives claim it is biased to the left. I've noticed that conspiracy theories are often swallowed whole and unquestioned, while simple plausible reports are picked apart. I honestly, and in all truth, hold up the possibility that you are right, that you are so much better informed than the average person that I should be listening very carefully to whatever you say. But you'll have to prove it to me first. Why are you so politically savvy? How did you get that way? How do you stay that way?

BUT WAIT, let's switch gears! I think that an even better topic of discussion would be in realm 1. "What's happening here at CPF?" You claim that the powers that be have more of a tendency to close threads due to posts of a certain political slant, than to posts of another, more right wing color. Is my statement of your assertion correct? Well, as has already been requested once, bring forth some EVIDENCE of that, please. Links to threads would be great. Then we can all judge for ourselves. I suspect that when I look at your evidence, I will see that the correlation is NOT to politics, but to rhetoric--i.e. tone, presentation, etc.

BUT EVEN SUPPOSING that you prove your point to my satisfaction, it still does not touch realm 2, because THIS IS NOT AN "OPEN" FORUM, is it? The rules of "free speech" do not apply here, do they? If you went to your sister's house, and started discussing sensitive topics of discussion while her mother-in-law was around, she would have every right to kick you out, or to not invite you back the next time her mother-in-law was in town.

It honestly seems more that you want to STATE your opinions, than that you want to enter them into a discussion. Perhaps I'm mistaken about that, but isn't that what you even said? You wanted your views, or the views of a certain persecuted minority, to be given equal air-time here on CPF?

As for people who are sensitive and easily offended, I would agree that there is a problem, in the political realm. When it is a matter of public laws and policies, then we must not flinch at offending people at the expense of the truth.

But again, there are two realms being blurred together. Here at CPF we are in a SOCIAL realm, and a private one at that, not a political one. Granted, there are definitely points of overlap, but CPF is a friendly (it is to be hoped), civilized, community. It is a voluntary gathering of people in a private place. We need to have more to guide our behavior than "I HAVE A RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!" We need to think of our fellow members as friends and acquaintances. I have ruined some perfectly good get togethers because I could not restrain myself from launching into a political diatribe. I regreted those events later. In a social situation people need to learn how to discuss things with more finesse and tact. Your opinions need not be watered down at all, but they must be presented in a different way. The essence of it, is that keeping things civil and in good spirits IS a priority, and also that a discussion will not work unless there are enough people who want to take part. We all know that person who hijacks a social discussion; who interupts and silences others by his or her blustering.

There are some who cannot abide sensitive people; who get angry at those who get upset without "proper" cause; people whose sensibilities are very sensitive towards those who have sensitive sensibilities. In my opinion, it shows a greater maturity and nobility to be able to deal with these sensitive people and not to be so sensitive about them and not to get angry about them. Most of the time, they are not being sensitive to make you angry or to manipulate you (although this does happen). The point is that if you can accomodate them in a social situation, you should try to do so.

As for the thing about me offending you: I was not worried that I would offend you, but that you would think I was playing the teacher, but in general, I always DO try to keep in mind how my posts will be taken by others. I do not think I am God's gift to all the rest of you unthinking slobs out there. I do not think that my opinions are so great and important that I should state them at the expense of a fun and friendly atmosphere. Unfortunately, I love to hear myself talk, and I am naturally argumentative, so I need to take care about what I say.

All right, by now there are probably 12 other posts that I have not read that were added while I was typing, so I'll stop. One last word, though: BRING IT ON, X-CalBR8! I throw down the gauntlet! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Prove your point with some evidence. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[js]

X-CalBR8,

Here's what I'm talking about:

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Sasha, I guess it's fair to say that we will never see eye to eye on issues of free speech, but, in all seriousness, it's hard for me to understand why an American citizen would not fight for, nor strongly believe in and desire free speech in all aspects of their life, including message boards. To me, this is unfathomable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not taking the time to understand what Sasha has been saying all along! She has not said "I don't care about free speech and I'm going to continue to censor all I want." She has said "I am NOT censoring ideas and opinions. I am banning flaming, trolling, baiting, etc. regardless of content."

Now, you claim that de facto this is not the case; that this is not what has been happening. The only way to get past this situation is to argue your point with evidence and elaboration and demonstration. Do it! Bring on the evidence. Then we can actually have a discussion.

It is rather callow to slander Sasha by claiming she does not care for free speech--She has said more than once that it is not about that!--and then to walk away from the discussion. I care about free speech and discussion and I have not had my feelings hurt in the least. Why are you walking away from the discussion? Saying that we will all just have to work it out on our own. If you're so right and so wise I want to hear from you. I want to learn from you. Show me that what you say about CPF and it's policies is true. Give me links to threads. Reason with me. Don't walk away in a huff of indignation. You have at least one willing and (somewhat) able interlocuter. Let's talk.

[geepondy]

I agree with Sasha. I like the cafe and the fun posts and I have asked a few odd ball questions and have learned from the answers. However there are so many other forums to post about religion and politics, why would one choose an off topic area for a flashlight forum? The only reason I can think of is at least in some cases to draw notice and get reactions (polite terms for baiting and trolling), whereas on dedicated religion and political forums, they're just another fly in the soup. Whatever, I stand by the moderators and their moderating decisions. It's a private owned forum in which the owner can choose to run things the way he wants. You could call it a dictatorship but one does not have to participate if one doesn't want to.