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Thread: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    The host may live forever but the guts would degrade, mostly to heat
    LEDs can be stored indefinitely in optimum temperature and moisture, said CREE
    Didnt know whether it still helds if the package is opened

  2. #32

    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claireandtim View Post
    Most, if not all new led's are rated at 50,000 hour lifespans. The quick math says this is 5.7 years of "constant on". I don't know about everyone else but I have almost 20 really nice lights, all of which are less than 2 years old. It would seem to me that it's more likely that I'll either lose, damage beyond repair or experience other component failure before the LED expires, does this seem logical?
    *
    *
    .
    When the CD just show up on the market they say it will serve for a 100y, but real usage shorten this lifitime to a 5-7 years...
    I think nobody knows in real for how long LED will stay OK, but often reading on forums that after 2years of usage emmiters low down thear lumens significantly.

    *

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Are you talking about 5mm LEDs? Power LEDs? LEDs on 24/7? LEDs used intermittently in flashlights?
    "...and the diode multiplied and grew in brightness. And God saw that it was good."

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by gcbryan View Post
    A LED is a type of diode. I'm sure there are plenty of 40 year old transistor radios that are still operational. I'm sure LEDs are no different.
    The diode may last for a long time, but not the fluorescence powder

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Didn't read most of the posts, but I'll add my 2 cents:

    If you're purely talking about the lifetime of the LED, there are other factors to consider. Since the board, wiring, soldering, plastics, etc are necessary for the LED to function, one of those components are likely to fail well before the LED. The LED can only last as long as those parts are working. Therefore the manufacturer's lifetime rating for an LED is a bit misleading.

    Realistically if you use your light every now and then and are good about replacing batteries, the rubber boot on your switch will probably be the only thing you have to worry about. Sure your light will be outdated 40 years from now, but you have to ask yourself "does it still work for me?" I know a lot of folks who are perfectly happy with their 20 year old Mag incan, or even a plain plastic incan flashlight that takes AA's. Did it work for them? You bet.

    IMO the best LED lights of today are purchased by consumers, then sold secondhand when a better technology debuts. Manufacturers have no choice but to constantly upgrade their lights due to competition. When current technology gets old, it gets passed down to less expensive manufacturers and you have cheaper, more powerful and efficient lights.

    I kinda like to compare it to luxury cars: all the fancy bells and whistles in my car from 13 years ago are now standard features in most sedans today.
    Last edited by dudemar; 01-12-2012 at 01:06 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudemar View Post
    Didn't read most of the posts, but I'll add my 2 cents:

    If you're purely talking about the lifetime of the LED, there are other factors to consider. Since the board, wiring, soldering, plastics, etc are necessary for the LED to function, one of those components are likely to fail well before the LED. Therefore, the LED can only last as long as those parts are working. IMO the manufacturer's lifetime rating for an LED is a bit misleading.

    Realistically if you use your light every now and then and are good about replacing batteries, the rubber boot on your switch will probably be the only thing you have to worry about. Sure your light will be outdated 40 years from now, but you have to ask yourself "does it still work for me?" I know a lot of folks who are perfectly happy with their 20 year old Mag incan, or even a plain plastic incan flashlight that takes AA's. Did it work for them? You bet.

    IMO the best LED lights of today are purchased by consumers, then sold secondhand when a better technology debuts. Manufacturers have no choice but to constantly upgrade their lights due to competition. When current technology gets old, it gets passed down to less expensive manufacturers and you have cheaper, more powerful and efficient lights.

    I kinda like to compare it to luxury cars: all the fancy bells and whistles in my car from 13 years ago are now standard features in most sedans today.
    I disagree with you
    LED would be the first one to degrade in a flashlight if used properly
    Compare with all the other things, the circuit would be fine even after 10 years, like phones
    Or people's A2 is still running hot and fine
    But the powder of LED is fragile to heat, unlike other electronic components
    Prolonged exposure to heat would degrade it even faster.Where electronic components still be able to endure

    Afterall, its just the business of the fluorescene powder

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by jh333233 View Post
    I disagree with you
    LED would be the first one to degrade in a flashlight if used properly
    Compare with all the other things, the circuit would be fine even after 10 years, like phones
    Or people's A2 is still running hot and fine
    But the powder of LED is fragile to heat, unlike other electronic components
    Prolonged exposure to heat would degrade it even faster.Where electronic components still be able to endure

    Afterall, its just the business of the fluorescene powder

    Actually, I disagree with you. Ever wonder why the tiny red LED prevalent on many electronic devices still powers on long after its host died? I think you get my point.
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudemar View Post
    Actually, I disagree with you. Ever wonder why the tiny red LED prevalent on many electronic devices still powers on long after its host died? I think you get my point.
    I did not say small red led,
    I meant the real-deal bright led we usually use on flashlight
    One with a dome, inside is yellowish fluorescence powder, they degrade under heat rapidly
    I guess you wont use tiny red on a flashlight, right?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    LED is extremely hot when in use, the powder is directly heated by it even we have heatsink
    The golden wire inside is called LED junction(i guess), which is VERY hot
    Touch a driving LED with bare hand and no heatsink mounted, youll know how hot it is, even with heatsink on, heat takes time to dissipate
    So the powder will degrade before driver
    While driver sits quite far away from the led, relatively.
    And it usually hides below the heatsink, less likely to be heated up

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by jh333233 View Post
    I did not say small red led,
    I meant the real-deal bright led we usually use on flashlight
    One with a dome, inside is yellowish fluorescence powder, they degrade under heat rapidly
    I guess you wont use tiny red on a flashlight, right?
    ...and I guess Pila has no idea what they're talking about, right?

    http://www.pilatorch.com/pdf/LED & X...rison 2011.pdf

    It's on page 11.
    Last edited by dudemar; 01-12-2012 at 12:41 AM.
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudemar View Post
    ...and I guess Pila has no idea what they're talking about, right?

    http://www.pilatorch.com/pdf/LED & Xenon Comparison 2011.pdf
    Whats the purpose of the pdf?

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Read page 11.
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  13. #43
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudemar View Post
    Read page 11.
    Still, whats the point?
    The PDF is just praising their products and like a flier
    Last edited by jh333233; 01-12-2012 at 12:51 AM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    I've seen posters refusing to admit they're wrong, but this is definitely new. I'll spell it out for you:

    LED chips are declared to function for 100,000 hours but such statements are only partly correct. LED chips per se have indeed a very long lifespan but the LED modules failure rate depend on a number of electronic components, some having a life span limited to a few thousand hours only! Therefore, the MTBF (Meantime Between Failure) of LED modules depend solely on the weakest electronic component and solder points reducing the "guaranteed" LED MTBF greatly!
    Last edited by dudemar; 01-12-2012 at 01:02 AM.
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  15. #45
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Let me conclude it by telling some facts
    1. The pdf is probably a promotion or advertisement to praise Pila's light
    2. Driver is usually sat well inside the light, you wont damage them unless you fry them by high voltage, even a continuous dropping would not be likely to shock the electronics away from their position. The pdf emphasised how "weak" the driver is, i never see it as a truth, cause ive dropped my light for thousands of time and it still works fine. While i tried to fry a LED by overheating, tint turned angry blue and then its into grave
    3. Under normal usage, the only factor which affects the light is heat, when i say it, i would assume it to be less than 70 degrees Celcius, probably not much to driver but the LED is definitely affected as it is what produced the heat and the LED gets affected by heat at the first line, other than all other thing, if you would mention joule heating by electronics, i would say the LED produce MUCH MUCH MORE heat by that.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    I'm not going to stoop to this level...
    Last edited by dudemar; 01-12-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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  17. #47

    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeg23 View Post
    My first thought is I'm sure there are people with 40 year old flashlights now but they seem pretty useless compared to a what is now available...
    +1

    I am sure, in 10 years, 200-300 lumen lights will be relegated to keychain use only, and the new thing will be 5k lumens or something.

    OR instead of increased lumens, maybe new batteries, increased runtime, fixes coffee for you, whitens your teeth, or something else

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by res1cue View Post
    +1

    I am sure, in 10 years, 200-300 lumen lights will be relegated to keychain use only, and the new thing will be 5k lumens or something.

    OR instead of increased lumens, maybe new batteries, increased runtime, fixes coffee for you, whitens your teeth, or something else
    +2
    Foldable phones
    Touch control
    These things were considered impossible in last century, now we have created the history

  19. #49

    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    I agree that batteries will probably be a limiting factor for an old light. It will be like trying to get 5.25" floppies for your old computer, or new music releases in an 8 track format, etc.

    Breakthroughs in battery design will most likely occur, especially given the push for solar energy storage solutions, electric cars, etc. Eventually, a point where a very small battery can provide a lot more power will be crossed. Circuit breakthroughs will eveentually allow smaller and smaller placements, with less heat.

    The industry will then naturally be able to make extremely small and powerful lights, and, extremely powerful larger lights.

    It will be analogous to computer sizes, where the first high performance ones were essentially rooms full of vacuum tubes and tape drives...and now you can get something that fits in your pocket with more computing power.

    Form factors for batteries may actually preserve some old standards, such as the AA, etc...due to conformity, especially at the joe consumer level. The shopping cart purchaser will not want a light that takes "some weird size", and may in fact gravitate towards disposable lights, especially if technology makes them more powerful and long lasting than they are currently.

    If new technology develops amorphous batteries, such that its cheap and easy to mold the battery into any desired shape or size, freeing the industry from "standard sizes" that help with marketing and cost controls, then flashlights for example could take on new form factors: The battery could BE the light, etc.

    So, just like I have an old Mac IIsi from the 80's that still works, and does what it did back then just fine....I don't really USE it the way I used to, as the newer versions just do the same things BETTER.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Luckily Surefire's lights can always do a lamp swap

    If the scene is going good, hopefully the LED in future would produce less heat with same lumen (Well, actually its = higher efficiency, heat is wasted energy)

    Then we could just swap the new LED inside as a piece of aluminum could last for at least 20 years,
    just look at the other's last-last-decade 6P, and the anod barely wears if its not always dropped on concrete/rock

    Ive seen some heavily used 6P on the internet, the guy has been using it with the V70 holster for 20 years, the light is still intact.
    Despite the tail's anod has been stripped off by the spring of V70, it is still functioning great

    I would definitely give Surefire's light, the name of "Lifetime light"
    The heavy and thick body and withstand lotta abuse unlike the other brands, aluminum sheet body, thats no match for Surefire
    Even the original lamp is resting in its grave, you can always mod it or even send it back and let SF pay the debt

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    And please let me post a link of an over-10-year heavily abused 6P
    http://flashlightforum.hk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=958
    This is what i call lifetime light
    Notches and anod were off, but its still functioning good stated by the OP
    (Emote: Salute to Surefire)

  22. #52

    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    When I go to home Depot I used to buy 100 year caulk, But it only lasted a couple of years before it dried out and shiveled up in the weather, so now I buy 35 year caulk. Not much better, a little cheaper.

    Flashlights like other hardware will change with battery and energy technolgy. Everything seems to start out big and get smaller but settles in to a design and size regulated by the power. Clocks as one example were huge at first and built as grandfather style and big ben pieces, only later going to smaller clocks and watches.

    I can Imagine the change in the power being the difference; Imagine a signet ring with a large LED in the center powered by some now untapped energy in the ring that could throw the beam, like an SR 90 or a DEFT. Hard to imagine such power, but explaining an Iphone to Abe Lincoln; well it would be hard to Imagine at that time. The quality lights will last to you get sick of 'em, like your old box TV and your record player. They will sell in antique store and everybody will say how cool they were but can you imagine carrying that thing around?

  23. #53

    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    I think they should still work, as long as some unexpected type of corrosion did not wipe them out. Also, in forty years, they may not be making these batteries, there is no way to be sure.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimshaneee View Post
    I think they should still work, as long as some unexpected type of corrosion did not wipe them out. Also, in forty years, they may not be making these batteries, there is no way to be sure.
    I too had that thought but dismissed it when I looked at my last 35 years and my toys and the batteries they used. Even the old 4,5V types can still be found. Even (to me) obscure formats like the CR2 can be found in the local stores (don't ask about prices). So I have a strong confidence that even the CR123 format should still be available in the future, even though I only know flashlights and cameras that actually use that battery type.

    Cheers
    Thorsten

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xacto View Post
    I too had that thought but dismissed it when I looked at my last 35 years and my toys and the batteries they used. Even the old 4,5V types can still be found. Even (to me) obscure formats like the CR2 can be found in the local stores (don't ask about prices). So I have a strong confidence that even the CR123 format should still be available in the future, even though I only know flashlights and cameras that actually use that battery type.

    Cheers
    Thorsten
    I guess CR123a would be readily available
    They are the best disaster-preparation power source as they have a long shelf-life than all the other batteries
    Compact size with high energy density, high discharge rate
    And military use it too
    So probably it wont goes extinction

  26. #56
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Just as long as they don't quit making PR type bulbs (both vacuum and noble gas filled) or at least eficient LED retrofits, then flashlights from 40 years ago, will still be working. My two favorite decades for flashlights are the 1960's and 1990's.

    Might I remind everyone that if EMP energy is released in the case of war or terrorism, LED's will not work, only incans. How much do I need to re-iterate the need for PR bulbs to stay in production?

    I keep having this vision of a night after an EMP release, my grand father is walking around in his garden with his old Garrity Value Lite from 1985 where everything is pitch black, except for the warm orange glow of his flashlight...
    "When egrets take flight, foul weather in sight."

  27. #57
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericjohn View Post
    if EMP energy is released, LED's will not work, only incans.
    ... and humans will not work either, only cockroaches.
    Resistance is futile...

  28. #58
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by DM51 View Post
    ... and humans will not work either, only cockroaches.
    EMP can be generated by a simple exploding-induction-coil bomb. No nukes necessary. It is possible to destroy all electronics in a city while only causing minimal physical damage.

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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    LOL - thanks for the physics tutorial!
    Resistance is futile...

  30. #60
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    Default Re: Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

    EMP =/= ionizing radiation
    EMP is a strong varying magnetic field
    Which can induce a current in closed loop, imagine the Induction Heater for cooking
    It frys whatever current-induceable thing, but not human
    I havnt tried it but, i guess a single LED die wont get damaged, but a light with LED+circuit would

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