Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

[zenbeam]

Adding a 4 Sevens light or two to my budding collection just went way up on my wishlist!

[JudasD]

You are correct; one cell doesn't "charge into" another depleted cell. This is an often repeated, but thoroughly incorrect, statement.

When 2 cells are in series, the weaker cell will discharge sooner and the stronger cell can continue to drive the weak cell in to deeper discharge. If the weak cell is really bad, or there are more than 2 cells in series, it can be driven all the way beyond zero volts and into cell reversal, where the positive and negative terminals will be swapped. This will cause alkaline cells to leak, and can cause lithium primary cells to vent or start on fire.

I wish people would stop parroting this so-called fact. Overdischarge and cell reversal are the complete opposite of charging.

Rant over.

They might be getting their series and parallel facts confused.

JD

[4sevens]

You are correct; one cell doesn't "charge into" another depleted cell. This is an often repeated, but thoroughly incorrect, statement.

When 2 cells are in series, the weaker cell will discharge sooner and the stronger cell can continue to drive the weak cell in to deeper discharge. If the weak cell is really bad, or there are more than 2 cells in series, it can be driven all the way beyond zero volts and into cell reversal, where the positive and negative terminals will be swapped. This will cause alkaline cells to leak, and can cause lithium primary cells to vent or start on fire.

I wish people would stop parroting this so-called fact. Overdischarge and cell reversal are the complete opposite of charging.

Rant over.

Good clarification. When the weaker cell reaches 0V and the circuit continues to drain the pair of cells in series the weaker cell gets REVERSE CHARGED. This is one reason why we sell our cells in two shrink wrapped packs. The cells are checked and balanced at the factory and then shrinked wrapped. This allows the cells to deplete at the same time as much as possible. AA's in series have the same issue however, you're dealing with half as much voltage and much much less capacity. Basically you should never pull two random unknown status cr123a's and throw them into any 2x cr123a light - regardless of what brand, make, model.

Hope this helps
David

[MorePower]

The opposite of charged is discharged, not "reverse charged." While I understand what you mean, it would be better to use the term "driven into reversal," which is what the battery industry uses when referring a cell that has been discharged down to zero volts and then beyond, into full reversal.

[4sevens]

The opposite of charged is discharged, not "reverse charged." While I understand what you mean, it would be better to use the term "driven into reversal," which is what the battery industry uses when referring a cell that has been discharged down to zero volts and then beyond, into full reversal.

Ok... of course the word "charged" is not appropriate since 1) these batteries were never meant to be charged and 2) even if they were "charging" them backwards can hardly qualify.

In even simpler terms perhaps an apt description would be as if the battery was put into a charger backwards and allowed to take in current. There isn't such a charger and there isn't a lithium cr123a that is supposed to do that. So I don't blame you in avoiding the word "charge." The net effect is simply a dangerous proposition. Everyone, make sure your cells are at the same state/capacity/brand/ etc etc.

David

[CampingMaster]

I'll chime in here with my current findings...

Firstly, the two cells that were supposedly shrink wrapped and used together - well there is no evidence that they were shrink wrap when this incident happened. It is my believe that mixed capacity cells were used thus causing one full cell to charge into a depleted cell when the light was in use, thus causing this incident. Usually there is residual shrink wrap when used in pairs - I found not of that in the remains.

Secondly, I have build a large test cage behind our warehouse and have been repeatedly trying to replicate this incident. I've used up nearly 50 cells trying all kinds of situations, abusing cells by mixing and matching and charging them and have not been able to replicate the incident. I will continue to investigate and try to find out the source of the problem. So far I have not been able to do it.

Thirdly, Mr camp master, please send me receipts of all expenses that you'd had to cover for your friend. I will take care of it. I do not believe our product is at fault but I want make sure you're taken care of.

thanks,
-David

Following my reading of post 83 by 4Sevens, I am indeed hurt and disappointed to read that, after 3 1/2 months of total silence on the part of 4Sevens, during which time my friend was never contacted, a conclusion was reached to the effect that my friend would have tampered with the shrink wrap and combined two cells of different voltage – a full one with a depleted one.

It is unthinkable to imagine my friend “unwrapping” his two original cells and then “unwrapping” two new cells with the intent of combining two different cells. I just can't see how anyone in his right mind would do that, to tell you the truth. Moreover, he was able to afford five pairs of 4Sevens cells, a charger with four additional cells, a $69.00 flashlight and a $20.00 prism kit, so why would he start combining depleted cells with full ones? He had only used the flashlight once in a while in the 13 months following its purchase and the original cells were still shrink wrapped. The ten 4Sevens cells he bought remained shrink wrapped in groups of two and he never, but never, combined a depleted cell with a full one as suggested by David of 4Sevens (please note that my friend doesn't even own a voltmeter).

4Sevens' allegation that the absence of shrink wrap among the remains led them to conclude that mixed capacity cells were used somehow makes us feel like we omitted facts or even lied. The intense heat generated inside the flashlight caused it to actually explode and burst in two parts: the 4Sevens label had disappeared from one of the cells and the other cell was found with only one third of the label on its surface. Moreover, two separate fires ignited in two separate locations within the apartment, fragments ended up scattered all over, yet residual shrink wrap should have be found among the remains?

Since the beginning of this issue, I collaborated with 4Sevens and CPF users and I will continue to do so and provide them with information to understand what happened. After 4Sevens received, on February 2, 2012, the remains of the Quark 123² after it exploded in my friend's hands, testing was made but my friend was never contacted for pertinent questions.

I understand that the above-mentioned findings are not definite and that David is still investigating this matter. I am confident that further testing will clear up his matter, especially since 4Sevens' repeated mixing and matching of cells (even though it was not the case) did not cause an explosion of the kind my friend experienced. Logically, we can safely conclude that the incident is due to some other factor.

The purpose of this thread was outlined in post #1: “This thread is to inform the flashaholic community of a dangerous incident related to primary CR123A. This is not at all to talk against the manufacturer of the battery that was used.” I made no accusations against 4Sevens in the title of this thread, in fact I didn't even name it. Some of the contributors to this thread have implied that 4Sevens cells are cheap China cells; we don't imply that at all. We just want the truth. In the meantime, I maintain what I alleged in each and every one of my previous posts which are posts #1, #19, #64, #65, #68. My friend and I also maintain that mixed capacity cells were not used nor were primaries ever charged.

For purposes of clarity, and since this is an important issue, this post has been reviewed and corrected by a legal translator.

Ultimate CampingMaster - Pierre Nadon

[4sevens]

Pierre - I sent you an email

-David

[Lou Minescence]

This member ( myself ) of the CPF community would like to hear all of the evidence about the incident. After reading post # 96 it appears the issue is being taken personally. Science as well as interview data should be used to determine the cause of the explosion and inform people about any danger with using these batteries. No one was hurt, bills are going to be paid, we will wait to hear what was the cause.

[brainy1000]

This member ( myself ) of the CPF community would like to hear all of the evidence about the incident. After reading post # 96 it appears the issue is being taken personally. Science as well as interview data should be used to determine the cause of the explosion and inform people about any danger with using these batteries. No one was hurt, bills are going to be paid, we will wait to hear what was the cause.

+1

[4sevens]

Pierre - please reply to my email or call me. Thanks.
-David

[CampingMaster]

Pierre - please reply to my email or call me. Thanks.
-David

David - I will contact you soon, every thing has to be revised by my legal translator before sending you any email, because :

1. - My mother's tongue is french.
2. - I need moderation in my way to express myself about this matter.
3. - My patience reached his limit.


To contact my friend which is more fluent than me in english -> I already sent to your employee Heather Zayicek, on January 17 - 2012, his cell phone number, home phone number and complete address ( to send him a new flashlight... ).

Pierre Nadon

[radioactive_man]

I have a homemade battery tester. I simply place a 4.7 ohm resistor between two alligator clips, and touch the clips to the ends of the CR123A to be tested. The leads are connected to a voltmeter. Discharging across a 4.7 ohm resistor roughly translates to a discharge current of 638 mA. I then compare to the relevant graph in this thread:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...tery-Shoot-Out

I usually use the 500 mA discharge graph just to be on the safe side. I always use Panasonic or Surefire primaries and I discard them when they drop below 2.2 volts - that's when they are heading off the cliff, so to speak. If one of the cells in a multicell light drops below 2.2 volts before the others, I discard all cells and replace them with new ones. I do a test like this every two or three months, because I pocket carry a 4sevens 2x123 light or a Surefire LX2, and because I greatly dislike burns to the groin and genitals.

[rookiedaddy]

...
Secondly, I have build a large test cage behind our warehouse and have been repeatedly trying to replicate this incident. I've used up nearly 50 cells trying all kinds of situations, abusing cells by mixing and matching and charging them and have not been able to replicate the incident. I will continue to investigate and try to find out the source of the problem. So far I have not been able to do it.
...

sorry for responding to a 1 month old post... but it's gonna be difficult to replicate the incident, you may need to take the batteries from the same batch, put them in the flashlight and leave it for 13 months...

from my small collection of 4Sevens' CR123A cells (they came in pair), I do notice that after being in storage (whether in flashlight or in the original shrink-wrapped) for >12 months, cells that come in pair do indeed tested to different capacity, despite they may have started life as being equal. In fact, the same can be said of EagleTac's 1500mAH cells (the 1700mAH cells are still too new to test for this), while Sanyo, Panasonic, SureFire and Energizer are more consistent in this regard.

due to this, I now get into the habit of checking the cell Voltage whether new or been in flashlights for some time before use (both 4Sevens' and EagleTac's. and yes, I know unloaded Voltage reading doesn't tell the capacity, but it gives me a sense of security).

[CampingMaster]

Thank you for your input rookiedaddy. At the end of august I will be able to test 5 pair of wrapped 4Sevens cells my friend still have ( for approximately 20 months ).

Habitually brand new 4Sevens cells test at 6.57 Volts a pair, I will see if there is a difference for twenty months on the shelf. Energizer test at 6.44 Volts a pair (03-2020 stamped on the cell).

Ultimate CampingMaster

[CampingMaster]

I was very surprised when he showed me his RCR123A battery charger with all the four batteries that come with it... (Since SE-H001).

He showed me also all the ten batteries that I bought for him (4Sevens batteries).

To my great astonishment the batteries inside his Regular Quark 123² XP-G R5 were the original primary 4Sevens CR123A included with the flashlight...

Ultimate CampingMaster

This quote from Post 1 is to introduce this post.

I saw my friend mid August, here are some pictures that I should have taken the first place:
[IMG][/IMG]
You can see in the background his new flashlight he received from FOURSEVENS. Thank You very much David for this replacement, a QPL2 (Quark 123² XP-G R5).

What I said in Post 1: «I was very surprised when he showed me his RCR123A battery charger with all the four batteries that come with it... (Since SE-H001). »

That means that I was very surprised he never used his rechargeable batteries, I was sure that the explosion was with his rechargeable cells not the primaries coming with the flashlight.

Note: My friend is an electrician as a profession he knows well that you don’t recharge a primary, then the incident is still a mystery.

Now more info about the 5 pairs of shrink wrap batteries :
[IMG][/IMG]
You can see on this picture de date of the cells and the fact that they never been used because you don't see the mark of the spring on them except lightly for the first set on the left - reason below.

Here are the voltage result of each pair that are on the picture above :
6.09 Volts
6.46 Volts
6.46 Volts
6.49 Volts
6.51 Volts

The pair at 6.09 V is the one that he was using in his new flashlight that David Chow sent him. I congratulate him to have his flashlight on his belt that day and not on a desk like he did before for 13 months.

I am presently using these 28 months "old" cells in my own flashlights (1 QP2L-X ; 1 Turbo X and 2 QX 123²), when they will be depleted I will unwrap them and give the results for each cells to FOURSEVENS.

[IMG][/IMG]
As you can see the label for the RCR123A are completely different vs 4Sevens primary’s label.

His four RCR123A where at : 4.01 V ; 4.01 V ; 4.08 V and 4.08 V

He doesn't remember* using his charger but looking at the voltage results (they are not around 4.20 V) and having no reason to charge them because he had already the originals cells in his flashlight I really don’t think that he uses it. And anyway never he would have use the charger for primaries having many spare cells at hand and taking into account that his profession is an electrician...

*Note: He has a problem of sleep apnea that causes him to have memory loss.

Because he is very busy I told him it will be simpler for him to use primaries, I took back home his charger I gave him as a gift and replaced all his 4Sevens cells with Energizer cells to give him confidence for using his flashlight on a regular basis. I will use his 4Sevens primaries for myself having complete confidence in the quality of these cells.

[IMG][/IMG]
This picture is a simulation of the exact position of my friend Claude when the incident happenned.

Quote from Post 1 : "When the incident happened, he was using his flashlight right beside his head to look behind a wall-mounted LCD television when the flashlight made a "bang" noise, like a rifle. After the flashlight was on the floor, another "bang" noise was heard and he had to extinguish not one but two fires, the flame from the fire on the floor being ten inches long."

If I forgot something, if you need more info, feel free to ask. I will do my best to help the Flashaholic Communauty to better understand the use of Lithium cells in our high tech flashlights.

Ultimate CampingMaster

[GunnarGG]

We don't know how much he had used his flashlight but since it was the original set of batteries it seems likely (to me at least) that the batteries were getting depleted.
And then one battery more depleted than the other and got "reverse charged".
I mentioned before that I have a light in my car and it gets only little use.
When the light got dim (discharged batteries) I actually was surprised that they were beacuse I didn't think I had used it very much.
Probably those minutes each time adds up faster than we think.

CampingMaster, you say you will unwrap and measure the batteries when they get depleted.
If they were in my light I would unwrap and measure them NOW.
And then when I think they are half depleted again and so on...
Just to check if they keep their balance.

[Pöbel]

although this happend quite a while ago I would still like to say I'm happy that nobody got hurt!

I believe CampingMaster is doing everything to state all facts as clearly as possible. I do not have the impression that he would make something up. On the other hand I can understand 4-sevens. Working in customer service you make a habbit of being sceptic.

Though looking at the pictures the LED is missing as ore other parts (without trace). This could also be true for the shrink wrap.

This incident reminds us that are beloved toys are indeed very powerful toys. Maybe we should only gift 1-cell lights to people who are using them seldom. No chance of mixing anything. Always be careful, always be safe!

[CampingMaster]

We don't know how much he had used his flashlight but since it was the original set of batteries it seems likely (to me at least) that the batteries were getting depleted.

Quote from Post 49 : "The use of the flashlight was very sparingly, very little use over 13 months. Was it at maximum the few times he uses it ? I think so."

The "I think so" should be read as : "Yes" after talking to my friend Claude mid August 2012.

Note : for Fenix users the term "Maximum" for FOURSEVENS is the same as "Turbo" for you.

Ultimate CampingMaster

[CampingMaster]

CampingMaster, you say you will unwrap and measure the batteries when they get depleted.
If they were in my light I would unwrap and measure them NOW. And then when I think they are half depleted again and so on...Just to check if they keep their balance.

Thank You very much for your input, I take note of your advice.

I checked two pairs : one is at 5.88 Volts and individually : 2.95 Volts and 2.95 Volts
a second pair is at 5.98 Volts and individually : 2.99 Volts and 3.00 Volts

I will on a regular basis check the others set and give the results here on this thread.

Ultimate CampingMaster

[RCS1300]

+1

I read many of these posts with great interest. One thing is clear to me. The only fact we have is that two CR123a primaries exploded. The original post definitely makes me more cautious using CR123A's but I too am puzzled as to why they exploded.

From the post something is not clear to me. It was mentioned "RCR123A battery charger" and "original primary 4Sevens CR123A". I can't help but wonder if the CR123A's were being recharged.

I thought the only battery chemistry danger of explosions is lithium-ion (rechargeables). Unless the non-rechargeable batteries (primaries) are serious damaged by attempts of recharging.

I think batteries don't need to be disposed of before 13 months. Most batteries have 10 year shelf life. Or what about all those lithium batteries in fire/smoke detectors?

[CampingMaster]

+1

+1 for what?
Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2
or Paragraph 3?

Ultimate CampingMaster

[sidecross]

you know what would be better? Just use the light until it runs out by normal operation rather than keeping it on to drain it, just carry a fresh cell with you so when the battery drains normally, swap it out with the fresh one and just charge the old one when you get home.

This is what I have done for ten years with my Surefire batteries and have never had a problem.

[CampingMaster]

This is how my regular reports on the five pairs of cells (from my friend) will look like, now I am using four sets.

Date for these readings : sept. 4-2012

Both cells / first cell / second cell

My EDC: QP2L-X -> 5.88 / 2.94 / 2.94

House: Quark X 123² -> 5.92 / 2.96 / 2.96

My wife: Quark X 123² -> 6.04 / 3.02 / 3.02

Camping: Quark 123² Turbo X -> 6.28 / 3.15 / 3.14

First cell = near the LED
Second cell = near the push button

[RCS1300]

+1 for what?
Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2
or Paragraph 3?

Ultimate CampingMaster

(Thank you for the initial posting. To increase my safety, I've also ordered a ZTS battery tester to compliment my voltmeter.)

Simply, I'd be careful gifting lithium ion or lithium primary flashlights and batteries unless the owner plans to carefully manage their use and charging. For example, regularly using a voltmeter to measure and track usage and voltage depletion of each rechargeable and/or primary battery.

On this forum I've read about individuals that have had those batteries explode due to poor management.

The safest option to give as a gift is regular alkaline batteries or rechargeable AA batteries.

[Empire]

+1 for what?
Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2
or Paragraph 3?

Ultimate CampingMaster

Paragraph, ALL.
You see, All this come together now.
Its all conspiratic of 47's to get the publicity of the forum so it get more customer.

[Lucciola]

I've also ordered a ZTS battery tester to compliment my voltmeter (...) On this forum I've read about individuals that have had those batteries explode due to poor management.

I'm one of those average-joe flashlight users who is so far very happy with eneloops. Just recently I got myself the Quarks with 2xCR123. After reading this thread I really think about getting myself a ZTS tester. Could you please explain me why I would need an additional voltmeter considering I use only CR123 (from Surefire, except for the ones which came with the lights).

I bought the lights due to cold temperature resistance and the shelf life of CR123 - for not using them. One is in my car and the other is in my "duty" jacket, where it is unused most of the year, it just stays there to be ready should I need it.

After reading through this whole thread I begin to think whether I should get a ZTS cell tester for the CR123 lights and check the cells monthly or whether it wouldn't be better to use lights with eneloops for these applications as well and just replace the cells on a weekly or monthly basis.

A ZTS tester might be a good investment anyway, but I read somewhere that it's not very helpful for eneloops.

The safest option to give as a gift is regular alkaline batteries or rechargeable AA batteries.

That seems to be the quintessence of most lithium-accident threads. My standard gift to non-flashaholics are four eneloops, the 2-cell quick charger from Sanyo and a simple, well regulated 2xAA light (Fenix or ⁴₇ Quark)

[GunnarGG]

Lucciola,
If you only use primaries I think it's enough with the ZTS.
The voltmeter is more for LI-Ion.
About eneloops I find it reasonable useful.
I can at least se if it's fully charged, almost empty or between.
Tried it right now on my LD10.
The ZTS was blinking on 20%, put the battery back and after a few minutes the light lost high mode.

[fyrstormer]

Protected RCR123 batteries would be better to use than single-use CR123 batteries. The protected RCR123 batteries have a circuit that disconnects each battery the moment a problem is detected, such as reverse-voltage, over-voltage, under-voltage, short-circuit, or overheating. The single-use batteries don't have that.

[RCS1300]

Lucciola:

I use 18650s and Cr123a batteries. I am not an expert and learned everything I know by reading the posts on this forum over the last three years. The voltmeter gives me confidence about status of charge mostly for recharging and matching multiple cells of the same charge on one light. The battery tester, as I understand it, provides a load test of the battery which I believe is more accurate than a current voltage reading especially as the batteries get older.

I rationalized the high cost of the battery tester at $70 as much cheaper than one hospital visit or a fire from poor battery management.

I don't keep Lithium or Lithium Ion batteries in the car as the car can heat up to 150 degrees F during the summer on the East Coast. Not good for these batteries. Instead, I purchased a Fenix LD22 which uses 2AA batteries and keep the batteries in a separate container right next to the light in the car. That way, if I forget about the light and batteries for months I don't have to worry about leakage and ruining the light.

With the Lithium and Lithium Ion batteries, I check their voltage every week or after each use depending on the amount of time I use the light. I also untwist the back cap of the flashlight that I store so that the batteries aren't engaged in a potential circuit until I need them. If I don't use the light for a week or two, I retest the batteries to check the charge and make sure the charges match in multiple cell applications.

There is nothing like the power of a two cell cr123a light or a two cell 18650 light for the purpose of personal security. In my training I was taught when threatened to light the immediate threat up and use a strong verbal command to challenge the threat (instead of drawing). In my opinion, the brightness of a CR123a or 18650 light says to a threat "this guy isn't a normal victim with that high powered light". I'd rather end a potential threat confrontation with a bright light and verbal command than something that would require much more explanation :-).

[sidecross]

Lucciola:

I use 18650s and Cr123a batteries. I am not an expert and learned everything I know by reading the posts on this forum over the last three years. The voltmeter gives me confidence about status of charge mostly for recharging and matching multiple cells of the same charge on one light. The battery tester, as I understand it, provides a load test of the battery which I believe is more accurate than a current voltage reading.

I rationalized the high cost of the battery tester at $70 as much cheaper than one hospital visit or a fire from poor battery management.

I have ordered the battery tester ZTS MBT-1 for the same reason.