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Thread: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

  1. #61

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    We are currently assisting CampingMaster in finding a good resolution to this.

    -Trevor

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    CampingMaster or 4Sevens, please update us when the problem has been found/resolved.

  3. #63
    Flashaholic CampingMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by aimxplode View Post
    CampingMaster or 4Sevens, please update us when the problem has been found/resolved.
    Yes for sure!

    As soon as I will be free I will publish the personnal report that I asked my friend to do, I received it yesterday.

    I will come back soon, busy for now.

    Bye ! :-)

    Ultimate CampingMaster
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by TooManyGizmos View Post
    ~

    ALL Multi-cell lights must be used with knowledge and the proper precautions .


    Kinda like race cars ... 3 new tires + 1 bald tire = Something BAD's gonna happen !

    ( They ALL have to wear evenly and equally. )

    ~
    Thank you, my friend had two primary batteries wrapped together (include with the flashlight) when the incident happened. Probably people not using their flashlight often and not changing their batteries on a regular basis should each three months unwrap the batteries and check them with a voltmeter to see if they are evenly discharging.

    Ultimate CampingMaster
    Last edited by CampingMaster; 01-21-2012 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Change for size 3
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Minescence View Post
    Looking at the picture, it appears the left battery was alot hotter than the right. I can't tell the brand of the left battery, the right battery didn't burn off it's label.
    These two batteries where 4Sevens primary include with the flashlight, they come wrapped together in a row. My friend did not at any time mixed batteries. The incident happened with 13 months old batteries - in other words -> the very same batteries where in the flashlight for 13 months for a flashlight that was used sparingly.

    Ultimate CampingMaster
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Hello CampingMaster,

    Years ago several tests were done showing the dangers of primary lithium cells. The basic problem was that lower quality cells often are not matched in capacity, and this can also happen if partially used cells are used with new cells. In order to generate the "rapid venting with flame" a few things need to be in place. You need heat, a cell that is being reversed charged, and enough time to get the chemical reaction going.

    The basic safety aspects that came out of this testing were to use quality cells, to never mix partially used or different brands of cells with new cells in a multi cell light, to make sure the light is shut off and locked out, and to no worry about the last little bit of capacity in the cells. When the light starts to dim, replace the cells.

    Following these procedures, the incidents of "exploding" flashlights has been greatly reduced. It is still not quite zero, but greatly reduced.

    Tom
    Thank you very much!

    Ultimate CampingMaster
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Quote Originally Posted by roadkill1109 View Post
    Did Dave or somebody at 4Sevens make an official statement on this incident?
    4Sevens asked me to send them all the remaining parts of the Quark 123² and batteries, what I did yesterday Friday.

    From Montreal Canada to 4Sevens, LLC in USA the Postal Service told me it will take 4 weeks - unbelievable 4 weeks...

    They told me it will take 2 weeks by airplaine...

    I choose the cheapest way - 4 weeks for 6$CAD

    Ultimate CampingMaster

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by CampingMaster; 01-21-2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Forgot to add picture
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Here is the report I asked to my friend to do for the benefices of all of us and 4Sevens :

    (has been emailed to 4Sevens)


    4 Sevens, Flashlight

    First, I would like to thank you for your fine products.

    I would like to share an incident that happened about four weeks ago.

    I put on the 4 Sevens flashlight with the 2 original batteries.

    I was holding in my hand the flashlight and about 2-3 minutes later, I hear a bang
    like a shot gun and seconds after another bang while I was still holding the
    flashlight. Then it started to get hot and I let it drop on the floor and smoke
    came out of it. My wife and I were wondering what was happening.

    Then the flashlight exploded and hit me on my foot and broke into piecies.

    Then two fires broke out and burn our wood floor which we put out rapidly with a
    small burn in the wood. The smell was so strong that it went to the neighbors
    appartment.


    We pick up the pieces and gave them to Pierre Nadon (He sold it to me).

    Ultimate CampingMaster

    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  9. #69
    Flashaholic Max_Power's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    In Santa Clara, you can take your dead batteries to the fire department, they collect them for free. I bet Berkeley FD does the same thing. Keeps nasty stuff like mercury out of the landfill.
    "What that thing needs, is more power." - Tim Allen

  10. #70
    Flashaholic* Black Rose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by CampingMaster View Post

    From Montreal Canada to 4Sevens, LLC in USA the Postal Service told me it will take 4 weeks - unbelievable 4 weeks...

    They told me it will take 2 weeks by airplaine...

    I choose the cheapest way - 4 weeks for 6$CAD
    The people at the post office mislead you.

    I have sent li-ion cells to the US west coast by ground and they got there in the same amount of time as if I had chosen to send them by air mail.

    Average time to any location in the US with ground or air packet is 12 to 14 days.

    But considering what you were mailing, I'm surprised they even offered the airmail option.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Power View Post
    In Santa Clara, you can take your dead batteries to the fire department, they collect them for free. I bet Berkeley FD does the same thing. Keeps nasty stuff like mercury out of the landfill.
    Not really, unless people are taking zinc-air cells to the FD. No other type of consumer cell sold in the US contains mercury other than zinc air cells, which are what hearing aids typically use.

    Sorry for the off topic, but this kind of misinformation needs to stop spreading.

  12. #72
    Flashaholic* hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    and, no, Santa Clara's program isn't available anywhere else I've found. I contacted the 'Big Green Box' company that takes all types of batteries, and they will be rolling out a household-size recycle/return package in the next few months

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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Does that mean you throw your used batteries into the wastebin in the US?

    In germany every store that sells any kind of batteries or any product containing or using batteries is required to take back used batteries for recycling plus there are many public bottle banks that have a special hole for used batteries.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmut.G View Post
    Does that mean you throw your used batteries into the wastebin in the US?

    In germany every store that sells any kind of batteries or any product containing or using batteries is required to take back used batteries for recycling plus there are many public bottle banks that have a special hole for used batteries.
    Here in CT the Home Depot I frequent has a big bin and they encourage people to put ALL KINDS of rechargeable batteries in there. I've seen lots of NiCD drill packs and LiIon laptop batteries. They have a similar (separate) bin for compact fluorescent bulbs.

  15. #75
    Flashaholic* hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    It's a major problem, Helmut. Rules vary; here's a good collection:
    http://www.ehso.com/csshome/battery_...california.php

  16. #76

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Hi everyone - we are actively investigating this and will have forensics done on the remains when they arrive.
    The only time we've observed this is if the lithium primaries were charged despite warnings on the label.
    I am not saying that the customer did that I'm just saying that this is what we've found to be the cause in the past.
    The primaries do not rupture while charge but while discharging after being charged.

    Campmaster I'm glad nobody was hurt - we're going to do everything to make this right.
    Do you know who filed this incident with the cpsc.gov and insisted that they remain anonymous?

    -D

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by 4sevens View Post
    Hi everyone - we are actively investigating this and will have forensics done on the remains when they arrive.

    Do you know who filed this incident with the cpsc.gov and insisted that they remain anonymous?

    -D

    Thank you 4Sevens. I don't know who filed this incident with the cpsc.gov, probably a competitor in USA.

    I live in Canada and did not contact any and will not contact any governement agency of any country about this very rare situation which I think might be very difficult or impossible to duplicate.

    Me and my friend are very satisfied with your products and will continue to use them and will cooperate at any stage of your investigation to help you understand what happens.

    Your very truly -> Ultimate CampingMaster
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  18. #78

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    I'm very interested in this thread and what's going on. I've had uneven battery drain in one of my double packed 4Sevens lights (2 x CR123A, batteries came wrapped together). My G5 went dim suddenly an unexpectedly given the relative lack of use. I shut the light down immediately and checked the batteries with a voltmeter. Not as good as a ZTS, but one batter was at 3.1 V or so at rest and the other 2.X, where X resulted in a substantial resting voltage difference. I imagine under high load the difference would be magnified.

    In any event, I chucked the bad one and used the other in a single cell light. So yes, this CAN happen even with packaged 2 x CR123A batteries, but since I knew what was up from my extensive reading about batteries on this site, there were no safety issues - but you do have to recognize symptoms and act appropriately, and follow Silverfox's advice.

    QC is really a big deal with these batteries - manufacturers may show good initial procedures and produce quality batteries, but over time, if they're not constantly hounded by QC and have that quality mindset, can slack or try to cut costs on their end after proving they can do a good job (they just no longer do it to the same standard they initially had). I'm not saying that's what happened here, but good QC is a constant cost - it doesn't stop after initial batch runs or procurement tests, but has to keep going to make sure suppliers are doing the very best job they can all the time.

  19. #79
    Flashaholic* Larbo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Not meaning to hijack anyones thread, bit I think this is relevant and may shed light on the 123x2 issue here. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sho...Battery-Issues

    This was not a bang and fire problem thats why I posted it there.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    If a consumer files a product safety complaint, they have the right to choose whether to share their contact information (i.e. the complainant must disclose identity, but have the option to keep their identifiable information confidential).

    Without getting into details, competitors cannot submit anonymous reports. Anonymous complaints aren't published. Complainant cannot be anonymous, but they do have right for this information not to be published or disclosed.
    Last edited by Let It Bleed; 05-12-2012 at 03:41 PM.

  21. #81
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by TwitchALot View Post
    I'm very interested in this thread and what's going on. I've had uneven battery drain in one of my double packed 4Sevens lights (2 x CR123A, batteries came wrapped together). My G5 went dim suddenly an unexpectedly given the relative lack of use. I shut the light down immediately and checked the batteries with a voltmeter. Not as good as a ZTS, but one batter was at 3.1 V or so at rest and the other 2.X, where X resulted in a substantial resting voltage difference. I imagine under high load the difference would be magnified.

    In any event, I chucked the bad one and used the other in a single cell light. So yes, this CAN happen even with packaged 2 x CR123A batteries, but since I knew what was up from my extensive reading about batteries on this site, there were no safety issues - but you do have to recognize symptoms and act appropriately, and follow Silverfox's advice.

    QC is really a big deal with these batteries - manufacturers may show good initial procedures and produce quality batteries, but over time, if they're not constantly hounded by QC and have that quality mindset, can slack or try to cut costs on their end after proving they can do a good job (they just no longer do it to the same standard they initially had). I'm not saying that's what happened here, but good QC is a constant cost - it doesn't stop after initial batch runs or procurement tests, but has to keep going to make sure suppliers are doing the very best job they can all the time.
    It's also my opinion. 100% agree. +1 here, waiting for updates about this important issue.

  22. #82
    Flashaholic CampingMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by brainy1000 View Post
    +1 here, waiting for updates about this important issue.
    I am sorry to report that I do not have any updates for you.

    It's been three months and half now since 4Sevens received all the pieces ( Feb 2 - 2012 ) and I haven't received any email nor any compensation.

    It looks like I will have to pay out of my own pocket for another flashlight for my friend and give him a few hundreds dollars for the damages he incurred in his appartment and also for the fact that he and his wife had to inhale the fumes from the set of two batteries that emptied by themselves after the explosion.

    I will have to use my income tax refund to pay for this.

    I would have never imagined having this kind of experience with 4Sevens from whom I ordered nearly forty flashlights (39) for me and my friends, prism's kits and a few hundreds of 4Sevens batteries.

    This is very sad and very expensive for me to backup 4Sevens.

    I am very satisfied with the products but not for the way 4Sevens took care of this issue.

    I have nothing more to say – I am sorry.

    Ultimate CampingMaster :-(
    Last edited by CampingMaster; 05-16-2012 at 04:50 PM. Reason: few hundreds not a hundred and minor translation corrections
    Will never be caught in the dark... always my FOURSEVENS Quark model QP2L-X w/Burst LED torch with me. (With CREE XM-L2 T6).

  23. #83

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    I'll chime in here with my current findings...

    Firstly, the two cells that were supposedly shrink wrapped and used together - well there is no evidence that they were shrink wrap when this incident happened. It is my believe that mixed capacity cells were used thus causing one full cell to charge into a depleted cell when the light was in use, thus causing this incident. Usually there is residual shrink wrap when used in pairs - I found not of that in the remains.

    Secondly, I have build a large test cage behind our warehouse and have been repeatedly trying to replicate this incident. I've used up nearly 50 cells trying all kinds of situations, abusing cells by mixing and matching and charging them and have not been able to replicate the incident. I will continue to investigate and try to find out the source of the problem. So far I have not been able to do it.

    Thirdly, Mr camp master, please send me receipts of all expenses that you'd had to cover for your friend. I will take care of it. I do not believe our product is at fault but I want make sure you're taken care of.

    thanks,
    -David

  24. #84
    Flashaholic* Lou Minescence's Avatar
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    Default

    This is proof that 4 sevens is old fashioned customer service. I am in business myself and have been in a few situations where something happened and the cause is unclear, or I was not responsible at all. I do the same thing. Either way, David has proved himself and his reputation.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Minescence View Post
    This is proof that 4 sevens is old fashioned customer service. I am in business myself and have been in a few situations where something happened and the cause is unclear, or I was not responsible at all. I do the same thing. Either way, David has proved himself and his reputation.
    I agree 100%. This makes me very proud to own many 4sevens lights.

    JD

  26. #86
    Flashaholic frosty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    +1 on that.

  27. #87

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    So how does one cell charge into another depleted cell? Why would this not also happen in a 2xAA light? I just checked a rarely used Novatac Special Ops 2xRCR123 with 2 Tenergy 900mAh LiFe04Po 3.0v cells and there were severely over discharged. These are basically new batteries and maybe have 2-3 charge cycles on them. How the heck did they get this over discharged when the light never gets used? I didn't think RCR123s have self discharge problems like NiMH cells did before they started making low self discharge cells like Eneloops.

  28. #88
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by Beacon of Light View Post
    So how does one cell charge into another depleted cell? Why would this not also happen in a 2xAA light? I just checked a rarely used Novatac Special Ops 2xRCR123 with 2 Tenergy 900mAh LiFe04Po 3.0v cells and there were severely over discharged. These are basically new batteries and maybe have 2-3 charge cycles on them. How the heck did they get this over discharged when the light never gets used? I didn't think RCR123s have self discharge problems like NiMH cells did before they started making low self discharge cells like Eneloops.
    Can happen to AAs just as well, except they won't explode with a big fire. They can release gases though and alkalines love to spill loads of potassium hydroxide solution (don't get too much on your hands, it is corrosive).

    You might want to start a new thread for discussing your tenergy cells. I'd say it's probably a parasitic drain problem with the Novatac.
    happens

  29. #89

    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    -edited!-
    Last edited by ikeyballz; 05-26-2012 at 02:46 AM.

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Dangerous explosion with 2 CR123A primary

    Quote Originally Posted by Beacon of Light View Post
    So how does one cell charge into another depleted cell? Why would this not also happen in a 2xAA light? I just checked a rarely used Novatac Special Ops 2xRCR123 with 2 Tenergy 900mAh LiFe04Po 3.0v cells and there were severely over discharged. These are basically new batteries and maybe have 2-3 charge cycles on them. How the heck did they get this over discharged when the light never gets used? I didn't think RCR123s have self discharge problems like NiMH cells did before they started making low self discharge cells like Eneloops.
    You are correct; one cell doesn't "charge into" another depleted cell. This is an often repeated, but thoroughly incorrect, statement.

    When 2 cells are in series, the weaker cell will discharge sooner and the stronger cell can continue to drive the weak cell in to deeper discharge. If the weak cell is really bad, or there are more than 2 cells in series, it can be driven all the way beyond zero volts and into cell reversal, where the positive and negative terminals will be swapped. This will cause alkaline cells to leak, and can cause lithium primary cells to vent or start on fire.

    I wish people would stop parroting this so-called fact. Overdischarge and cell reversal are the complete opposite of charging.

    Rant over.

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