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Thread: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

  1. #61

    Default Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_TX View Post
    I'm not defending dishonest claims, but I somehow doubt the average buyer can discern between 3000 and 2600 mAh of battery capacity...

    Lumens ratings are the same. As soon as you accept that they're exaggerated, you realize you can use them as a relative guide to output ... i.e., a claimed 1000 lumen light is likely to be a good bit brighter than a claimed 300 lumen light. And frankly, most people just know that a light is bright or dim, so it's not a life-or-death deal.

    All this stuff is a "buyer beware" issue. It's like buying at a market in Mexico - you might not always get exactly what you think you're getting. People need to educate themselves and be informed buyers.
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    It's not just a buyer beware issue, it is a criminal act of fraud. When I see a light advertised as 300 lumens, I am not buying just a light, I'm looking for 300 lumens, buying a quantity of light whether it's coming from a flashlight or a glowing potato. The part about it being a flashlight is only a means to that end.

    It is important to draw a firm line in the sand on this issue because reputable companies should not be disadvantaged with an unfair market due to criminal acts by others. By turning a blind eye we have allowed the problem to go from bad to much, much worse in the last few years.

    There are now generic lights rated for more than triple their actual output. They can sometimes be a great value for the money but in that case they should still be rated accurately, THEN let the customer be aware and educated with facts instead of guesses and lies.

    Personally, I won't buy lights that I know are fraudulently rated.
    Last edited by J_C; 11-30-2013 at 09:48 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post

    This is for everyone to deside. I like high quality and want to pay for it on some occasions.
    Excessively overdriving an LED till the die degrades, light getting too hot to comfortably hold if ran for more than a few minutes, suffering less than 50% runtime, all for what the human eye cannot perceive as being much brighter, is not high quality in an EDC light.

    Rock solid reliability and versatility is paramount on the light you're going to always have with you. Anything else is just a toy.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_TX View Post
    Well ... I see it this way:

    Most "premium" flashlight makers are charging a premium price for their products, and those products are often over-engineered (and consequently over-priced) for the kind of casual use most of us subject them to. In fact, most high-end flashlights on the market today are engineered for use as "tactical" lights for military, law enforcement and emergency services personnel. Like with a Mercedes car, most of us don't really need the degree of strength and quality that's baked into those lights, but some people like the cachet associated with them and are willing to pay the price to "drive" the best.

    In fact, most budget lights use Cree emitters, as stated, so the main desirable component is there. If the body of the light won't quite stand up to Taliban gunfire, the threads aren't ISO 9000 quality, the soldering is a little gobby, and the anodizing won't pass SOCOM standards, it really matters very little to most of us. What matters is that the price is low enough to allow us to have 3 or 5 of them for the price of one of the premiums.

    Now, the batteries are an area where we have to be educated and a bit careful, since misuse or defective products can cause problems. But as long as we deal with reputable sellers and manufacturers we should be safe. And I don't label Ultrafire and Trustfire batteries as automatically suspect.

    So I view budget lights more as "mainstream lights" than as inferior lights. But I don't drive a Mercedes, either.

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    What you said is correct I suppose, for MOST of you.

    For some of us though, those features are very important. Having it extremely durable, with threads that don't strip, quality o-ring seals that work well, good heat dissipation for extended run times, and impact resistance... while getting as much power density in our batteries and the highest (reasonable) output that we can get in a handheld or head-mounted package.

    As was earlier stated on here, applications of lights are entirely personal. YOU may not need those things, or they may not be overly important for you if you're changing your oil filter at night or hunting for spare change under the seat in your car, but other people highly value the things I just listed.

    Joanne (CPF) and I do professional mineshaft exploration, and we're both 'on-call' for mine SAR.

    So it's imperative that our lights be of excellent quality, and can provide enough light if needed to cut through massive spaces underground. Considering that many lights are "over-engineered" as you said, that's good for our peace of mind, considering that the absence of light can put us immediately into a life-or-death situation. So of course we carry several. But I'd rather carry 5 lights that I consider almost bomb-proof, than 5 lights that I think are crap.

    And as for the batteries, if I'm underground for 6 to 12 hours, I want to change out batteries as few times as possible, and cut down on the weight of what I have to carry.

    I'd rather purchase a light that costs a little bit more, and "worry" about whether its features are more than I need; than worry about whether it's going to keep working or not.

  4. #64
    Flashaholic* uk_caver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit

    Quote Originally Posted by Therrin View Post
    But I'd rather carry 5 lights that I consider almost bomb-proof, than 5 lights that I think are crap.
    I'd rather carry two lights I considered almost bomb proof than five lights I thought were crap.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit

    To each his own. I'd RATHER carry 2 lights, but on at least one occasion in the last 6 years I've gone through 3 while underground, and the first one went when I was around 900ft down. So carrying any less wouldn't seem like a very bright idea; for me at least. Mines tend to be inherently a bit more dangerous than caves too.

    I like what J C said,
    Rock solid reliability and versatility is paramount on the light you're going to always have with you. Anything else is just a toy.

  6. #66
    Flashaholic* uk_caver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit

    I typically carry two backups when on long UK trips or out in the Alps, but my main light virtually counts as two anyway - multiple redundancy in the electronics, solid and field-servicable switch, and given that I carry a spare battery pack, in the case of any battery/power cable issues, I'm fairly confident I could do an adequate repair of most plausible failures, given the penknife I always carry.

    However, I'm not sure I've ever needed a backup light (at least if I count my old carbide/electric combo as one light).

    And regarding crap lights, if I had any, I'd only take them underground for non-essential extra uses, and wouldn't factor them in to backup calculations.

  7. #67
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit

    How is this in the Caution budget battery and lumen claims? I personally don't buy that many expensive lights because I can re-build cheaper ones for far less and get more light.

    These manufacturers do over-charge for the product they sell, because it is a luxury item. You don't need a 1000lm flashlight, but if you do want one you will need to put out some cash.

    I have a few high end lights, and I build some for others. I normally will not keep a light unless it starts off in life as a >$100 host, but at the same rate I have liked several of the cheaper lights that I have built a lot more than some of those. I also use expensive cells for my expensive lights, but I have purchased hundreds of budget batteries for builds and less than 10 expensive cells.

    As far as explosion proof goes, yeah if I were in the mining business it would be pretty important to me, but I am in the steel business. To each his own I guess. I like my lights, and I am sure you guys like yours. Now a budget light warning; I purchased a flood to zoom light with an XML led in it and the pill was empty. That is right it had a star just sitting on a ledge with almost no surface area for heat transfer between the body and the star. Be on the lookout for these the light was very cheap and I have spent as much on just an LED before.

  8. #68

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    I read a lot but don't post a lot. This is worth my $0.02 perhaps.

    I have had near 100 mag lights of every size and color there was in years past and have modified a few to out shine anything in their line. Took a decade or so off and found LEDs just decimated the incandescents for all practical purposes. I had 2 "serious" lights back in the day, a Magcharger and a Streamlite Super Stinger, both now with new battery packs and ultimately destined for LED upgrades. I bought a Mag LED with a rated 131 lumens and was blown away! I was hooked. I got a Fenix TK12 on sale a couple years ago at christmass and saw what a real LED light could be. I use it for my serious light needs and hav just added a Fenix PD35, just to see if the newer LED is that much better. Much more light yes but I like the feel of the TK12.

    Now for the budget stuff. I have perhaps 25 Tmart, Ebay, and Amazon lights. Some of them give off almost as much light as the PD35! A few have multiple LEDs and blow my car headlights away. Some of these I have paid as little as $5.00 for. As low as $3.50 for the little ones. You just can't beat the fun for the buck factor of these!! I have them everywhere. Kitchen table, work desk, shop, bathroom, bedside table, cars, truck and sometimes in my pocket! Drop something on the floor, get something stuck in the drain, or just to light up the mashed potatoes for the hell of it!! I love it!! I'll go outside and just shine one of the multiple LED monsters at the trees or down the street just because it is so dam powerful!! All this fun for less than meal at any restaurant or burger joint!! AND you get to Keep the light!!!

    I have some of the cursed evil counterfeit batteries, we all get burned I think. Read this thread and pulled apart a laptop battery that didn't cut it any more and got some good 2200 mah that I use in my good lights but I use the crappy ones in my lower output lights. Junk lumens are still lumens and the junkiest of the LEDs drastically out performs my 6D Mag by a long shot and doesn't weigh 500 lbs! Got $7.00 total battery and light tied up in the junkiest. Great for working on the car and has hi, med, and low! Drop it, get oil, grease, crap in general and just wash it off in the sink and throw the battery back on the charger. Whats to complain about?

    Enjoy the lumens boys and girls, life is too short!
    Last edited by Norm; 12-29-2013 at 09:56 AM.

  9. #69
    Flashaholic* Rosoku Chikara's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by dazzleaj View Post
    ...Now for the budget stuff. I have perhaps 25 Tmart, Ebay, and Amazon lights. Some of them give off almost as much light as the PD35! A few have multiple LEDs and blow my car headlights away. Some of these I have paid as little as $5.00 for. As low as $3.50 for the little ones. You just can't beat the fun for the buck factor of these!!...<snip>
    Would you mind posting (in the Budget Light section) more details about what "models" (or photo/description anyway, since it is sometimes very hard to know the real model of such low cost lights) and other details?
    Last edited by Norm; 12-29-2013 at 09:55 AM.
    My avatar photo is that of a small handmade toy boat that propels itself along the water in a realistic "chug-chug" kind of motion, yet is powered entirely by CandlePower. (Japanese children used to make them out of various types of junk, but now they are largely a "lost art.")

  10. #70
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    I think the reason he was able to purchase those lights so cheap was due to the fact that they were on e-bay. I do the same thing, research on different forums/keep a close eye on new lights coming out of china and then hit e-bay. The odd thing to me is that you can buy something like the Skyray Kung delivered for $35 and it easily tops 2000lm and has 2 modes with hidden strobe. It also has an all aluminum construction 1.25mm glass lens, aluminum reflector, and 4 XM-L T6 Leds. How do you even construct a light with that much invested in components for that price? Go ahead and look at the price of an XM-L T6 mounted to an aluminum heat-sink and tell me that isn't a steal. Oh and if you are wondering, yes they are incredible.

    Sorry about getting off topic, but not really this has to do with lumen claims. I guess that it is a faulty claim if the person that sold the Kung said that it was 6000lm well surprise, surprise, 4 XM-L T6 leds ran at 2A each doesn't equal 6000lm OTF. The leds each put out a max of 900lm at 2.8A and 25C, which puts the theoretical maximum brightness for 4 aluminum mounted T6s at 3600lm, but they aren't driving them that hard, and the reflector design doesn't allow very good light gather, and 25C is not a realistic junction temperature because they are mounted to small aluminum stars with an insulated layer between the thermal pad on the led and the aluminum of the star.
    Last edited by Norm; 12-29-2013 at 09:55 AM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by langham View Post
    Have any of you revived a Li battery by wiring it up in parrallel and jumping it off? I have done it twice when the battery has dropped bellow the point at which it can be charged by a charger, and it seems to work very well.
    I'm surprised no one has corrected this yet. This is a very dangerous situation.
    The bad cell can draw excessive current causing the cell to heat up. Resulting in thermal runaway and ending very badly either with the cell venting or turning into a massive fireball.

  12. #72
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    That is because it is extremely unlikely to happen with modern cells, the chemistry is a lot better and if you are that worried about it just put a small resistor in line. Trust me is not all that likely, like I said I haven't just done it once.

  13. #73

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by langham View Post
    That is because it is extremely unlikely to happen with modern cells, the chemistry is a lot better and if you are that worried about it just put a small resistor in line. Trust me is not all that likely, like I said I haven't just done it once.
    A resistor is a very good idea. If the cell discharges too low it may develop internal shorts which is the typical cause for excessive heating to the point of venting. Even so, "not all that likely" is still a small risk, I wouldn't do it in an area with combustible materials nearby, maybe in an ammo box or on a concrete floor. It's best to just discard the cells if they go much below 2V.

    Better chemistry can only do so much. If they improve the chemistry to the point that the cell is safer till a lower discharge voltage, then they would adjust the protection circuit to a corresponding lower voltage to reap more capacity, but there is still a lower safety limit you're trying to defeat if it has reached the protection cutoff level.
    Last edited by J_C; 01-20-2014 at 09:26 AM.

  14. #74

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    That's why I always look at rating and review before buying things. I bought a "Ultrafire 1000 LM WF-502B CREE XM-L T6 5-Mode LED Flashlight Torch (With Batteries and Charger)" for under $15..so far very happy for the price. Also have another one coming without batteries for under $8. I'm sure this one will be fine too. So for around $22 I got 2 lights w/batteries and a charger. So far I gave the light 5 stars (can change it later if I have issues) even though I knew the claims are "exaggerated" about the batteries and lumens.

    I also think it's the manufacturers/resellers in China that are more at fault for the misleading info because the sellers are just copy-pasting what they say. Sure the seller should know more maybe but if they had the right info in the first place I don't think it would be a problem. Besides reading reviews/rating I tend to test anything I buy that could be a danger..But this should be done with anything even high priced lights. Since getting my light the battery has been out daily getting voltage tests and the 1st day I took it out to see if it got warm at all..all good about 3 days in

  15. #75
    Flashaholic* uk_caver's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    I think many sellers do know more, but it's more convenient for them to echo claims they know are wrong.

  16. #76

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by uk_caver View Post
    I think many sellers do know more, but it's more convenient for them to echo claims they know are wrong.
    I think most probably have an idea the info might be wrong..but asking the seller question about the light I bought it seems they don't even know much about it really except what they were told. In this case it's probably someone without any idea about electronics except how to use them selling this stuff.

    So I can't blame them fully and will buy from them again as long as they make things right with the product if they go wrong. I believe that's all I can ask from "sellers" like the one I purchased from on Amazon. I think the buyer can lay a bit of this on themselves or "buyer beware" too because they like to buy inexpensive things but don't want to research it well.

    It's also your right to send back and get a refund for any light that doesn't live up to the claims (I wouldn't buy from a seller that had a no refund policy unless it was almost free). I researched my purchase well though and so far I'm happy

  17. #77
    Flashaholic ArmoredFiend's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Personally, I can see where some of you guys are coming from, both premium and budget lights. Coz I have a friend who kept asking me why I spend so much on flashlights when he could get a rather bright light for less than USD$5. It might not be as bright as to hit 180lumen..but I would guess itís at around 80lumen..which if youíre to consider the price, is rather good. On top of that, he kept his budget light in the car for past 2yrs and last he checked, a month or so ago, still works fine. I am from Malaysia, and here, itís Summer all day long for 365 days a year with temperature hitting 40celcius under the sun, and higher inside a parked car without the aircond running.

    I kind of like what dazzleaj said though. Use the premium when you need to rely on themÖbut at home or in the car, keep some of those budget ones where if broken or lost, you wouldnít feel a thing. But might come in handy when your Premium EDC is not within easy reach like when youíre in a car with the seat belt on and your premium EDC is in ur front pocket, I bet itís faster to jst open the glove compartment and take out a budget ones when all you need are jst some light to shine down your gf/spouseís handbag looking for something.

    So I guess I should start checking out budget ones as well coz they are affordable..and maybe, instead of getting a Fenix TK75 by spending a fortune for the wow factor, I should instead get a budget ones that has maybe 4klumen claim or somewhere there.

    In short, its good to have both premium and budget ones and use them accordingly like whether itís gonna be a 3 days hike into some unknown caves or a 30mins of book reading on the bed.

  18. #78
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    I have almost stopped buying expensive lights, you can mod a $20 light from DX or a similar site to blow away any stock light of a similar cross-section. Manufacturers just don't have access to better material than we do. Actually it is the opposite, I had an XM-L2 version TN-31 way before thrunite put one out.

    I just think that you are paying for a name now days. When a surefire light costs almost $400 USD and I can build a light that is brighter for $45 and it can use rechargeable cells, that is just bad markup. Some manufacturers don't even use direct copper mounted MPCBs for Cree leds that have a built in heat sink pad, Really?

    I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?

  19. #79
    Flashaholic ArmoredFiend's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by langham View Post
    I have almost stopped buying expensive lights, you can mod a $20 light from DX or a similar site to blow away any stock light of a similar cross-section. Manufacturers just don't have access to better material than we do. Actually it is the opposite, I had an XM-L2 version TN-31 way before thrunite put one out.

    I just think that you are paying for a name now days. When a surefire light costs almost $400 USD and I can build a light that is brighter for $45 and it can use rechargeable cells, that is just bad markup. Some manufacturers don't even use direct copper mounted MPCBs for Cree leds that have a built in heat sink pad, Really?

    I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?
    Well..surefires can take a bullet and still works...

  20. #80
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    If I get shot at the last thing I care about is if my flashlight works. They are made for the military. The argument doesn't work if you can build 10 cheap lights for the price of one durable light.

  21. #81

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    If you are just a causal user and total darkness doesn't matter, sure, buy junk.

    Otherwise, some people really need their light to work. It doesn't need to be as bright as the sun, doesn't need to be cheaper than lunch, but needs to work every single time without fail.
    Last edited by J_C; 02-22-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  22. #82
    Flashaholic* mcnair55's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by langham View Post
    I have almost stopped buying expensive lights, you can mod a $20 light from DX or a similar site to blow away any stock light of a similar cross-section. Manufacturers just don't have access to better material than we do. Actually it is the opposite, I had an XM-L2 version TN-31 way before thrunite put one out.

    I just think that you are paying for a name now days. When a surefire light costs almost $400 USD and I can build a light that is brighter for $45 and it can use rechargeable cells, that is just bad markup. Some manufacturers don't even use direct copper mounted MPCBs for Cree leds that have a built in heat sink pad, Really?

    I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?

    You have obviously no idea of mark up and what it caters for and how it is accounted for in the business model.
    Alkaline collection Energiser-Duracell-Ansmann-GP

  23. #83

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by langham View Post
    I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?
    Most people care. Most people don't think "It was cheap so I don't care.". Instead they think "If I didn't really need light then I wouldn't be holding a flashlight."

    To most people a light isn't a science project or contest for the most lumens, it is an everyday essential piece of equipment that doesn't need to break records but does need to work every time without fussing over the details. That's what they pay a major brand for, the attention to detail and testing, so they don't have to spend their own valuable time on such things just to use a flashlight... a gadget that has been around for a century. Your concerns may be different but manufacturers have to target the larger audience, the customer base they want to reach.
    Last edited by J_C; 02-22-2014 at 12:46 PM.

  24. #84
    Flashaholic* Rosoku Chikara's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by J_C View Post
    ...but does need to work every time without fussing over the details...<snip> (emphasis added)
    I think it may be well worth noting here, that even the same users can have a least two different types of "needs" when it comes to needing a flashlight.

    [I'll grant you that others may (and no doubt do) think differently. But, I believe that most of the people I know would largely agree with the following reasoning.]

    1) Critical Need

    If I am going camping, or especially light weight backpacking, then I have a "critical need" for a flashlight. If I am simply traveling by car* to some campgrounds, then this need becomes far less critical. But, you still do want a flashlight that "works every time."

    [*The difference with traveling by car is, of course, the fact that, if you can go there by car, you are never all that far from civilization (where you can buy another flashlight), and weight is far less of an issue, so you can carry more back-up flashlights with you, when you are on such a camping trip.]

    Anyway, if I have a "critical need" for a flashlight, then I will want to carry a very good (often means "expensive") flashlight. The further from civilization, the longer I will be out there, and the more potentially life threatening the environment; then the "better" the flashlight I want to take with me. Even after I have the best flashlight that I can afford, I still want to take at least another (usually smaller, and more lightweight) flashlight as an emergency back-up flashlight, since even "the best" flashlights can (and do) fail. But, in all such "critical need" situations, you will prefer to carry the most reliable flashlights you can afford.

    2) Casual Need

    If I am going out in the dark to look for something that I may have left in the car, then I would say that I only have a "casual need" for a flashlight. The colder it is, or the "wetter" the weather is, the more annoyed I am going to be if my flashlight fails. But, it is not a life or death matter. If I am unlucky enough to have my flashlight fail on me, I can simply go back to the house and grab another.

    For such "casual needs" I find that a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone works just fine. They are not 100% reliable (no flashlight is), but in my experience they are at least 99.9% and probably even 99.99% reliable. You wouldn't want to drown one underwater, but they perform fine in normal wet conditions such a rain. (If the zoom function on yours uses a metal tensioning ring, you should replace it with an O-ring.)

    While there is nothing wrong with choosing to own only the highest quality flashlights, I believe it is incorrect to assume that you always need such a "good" (expensive?) flashlight, under any and all circumstances. In many situations an extremely low cost flashlight can work just fine, and in some situations you will greatly prefer to have a low cost flashlight readily available. (For example, if you wish to loan a flashlight to some relative, friend, neighbor or even a complete stranger.)

    In another post I have presented the theory that it is "better" to purchase 10 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, than 1 x $40.00 flashlight. (And certainly, 100 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, rather than 1 x $400.00 flashlight!). My reasoning is that at the end of say ten years, you are far more likely to have a functioning flashlight if you start out with ten flashlights, rather than only one. (The better the flashlight, the more likely it is to be stolen. Any flashlight can be lost. All flashlights can fail... etc.)

    Of course, everyone's needs are different. And, many on this forum are military, law enforcement, fire fighters and emergency services personnel who need the best quality flashlights on a daily basis. (Often their lives, and our lives, depend upon it.) However, for many of us "laymen" this simply not the case.
    Last edited by Rosoku Chikara; 03-01-2014 at 08:45 PM.
    My avatar photo is that of a small handmade toy boat that propels itself along the water in a realistic "chug-chug" kind of motion, yet is powered entirely by CandlePower. (Japanese children used to make them out of various types of junk, but now they are largely a "lost art.")

  25. #85

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosoku Chikara View Post
    I think it may be well worth noting here, that even the same users can have a least two different types of "needs" when it comes to needing a flashlight.
    In another post I have presented the theory that it is "better" to purchase 10 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, than 1 x $40.00 flashlight. (And certainly, 100 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, rather than 1 x $400.00 flashlight!). My reasoning is that at the end of say ten years, you are far more likely to have a functioning flashlight if you start out with ten flashlights, rather than only one. (The better the flashlight, the more likely it is to be stolen. Any flashlight can be lost. All flashlights can fail... etc.)
    You might have better odds but then you may also be put in a situation where you are without light 6 times due to a generic failing. How many times might that leave you stuck on the side of a road unable to change a flat tire, or bashing your shin against something in the dark, or slipping and falling, or trying to get work done away from home and you now either have a need to bring redundant lights with you everywhere or spend more time and gas to make a trip out to a store to buy a temporary light, or any number of possibilities that didn't seem like a critical use beforehand?

    You might have a backup light in your vehicle glove box, but what if you are riding in someone else's vehicle? It's not practical to assume you'll always have two lights on your person unless you don't mind carrying around so much stuff that you are wearing holes in your pockets... been there, at some point you can't carry redundant copies of everything.

    I use a light on a regular basis, and have bought my share of generics. None have lasted more than a few dozen hours of use. Even my mere $20 EDC, ITP EOS A3 now has more working hours on it than 6 generic lights. Someday it could fail, and I would gladly pay $20 for another or even $40 for some other major brand.

    My argument is that while there are both critical and casual uses, one light can handle both if it meets a certain quality level, a quality level rarely found in generics. To many people it is worth the cost of a few lunches to not be stuck in the dark as often.

  26. #86
    Flashaholic* Rosoku Chikara's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    I understand your points, but I still feel my reasoning stands. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not belittling good quality flashlights. I am simply trying to point out that some of the very low cost flashlights that are available, also have their practical uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by J_C View Post
    ...have bought my share of generics. None have lasted more than a few dozen hours of use...<snip>
    What "generics" are you referring to? Have you ever tried a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone?

    (Low cost flashlights that don't work are not budget lights, or thing else; they are simply junk. Shop wisely, search for reviews and post questions on this forum, and try to avoid purchasing such useless flashlights. Believe me, there are plenty of junk flashlights out there, and we shouldn't "encourage them" by purchasing those products. Furthermore, just in case you suffer from the common misconception that somehow paying more for a flashlight assures you of getting a "better" product, please note that you can spend $49.90 for a Sipik SK68 clone under the name of a "Heider Super Torch." It is still the exact same flashlight as the $4.00 one, though.)

    Quote Originally Posted by J_C View Post
    ...Even my mere $20 EDC, ITP EOS A3 now has more working hours on it than 6 generic lights. Someday it could fail, and I would gladly pay $20 for another or even $40 for some other major brand...<snip>
    I thoroughly researched AAA flashlights (at least to my satisfaction) and ended up purchasing 10 to test out first hand. Here they are:



    I ended up concluding that the TANK007 E09 was essentially the same flashlight as the ITP EOS A3, but costs less at only $12.99 from Fastech. I have used mine nearly daily for years, and have purchased at least a dozen more to give away as gifts. Here is an EDC "gift set" that I often give to friends and clients:



    So far, every TANK007 E09 that I have purchased has tested out perfectly in both performance and fit/finish. So, in my opinion, the question is: Why pay more?

    Also, I always carry a 2 x AAA penlight in my backpack that serves as both a backup flashlight and a spare battery carrier.
    Last edited by Rosoku Chikara; 02-28-2014 at 09:08 PM.
    My avatar photo is that of a small handmade toy boat that propels itself along the water in a realistic "chug-chug" kind of motion, yet is powered entirely by CandlePower. (Japanese children used to make them out of various types of junk, but now they are largely a "lost art.")

  27. #87

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosoku Chikara View Post


    So far, every TANK007 E09 that I have purchased has tested out perfectly in both performance and fit/finish. So, in my opinion, the question is: Why pay more?
    The pictures say it all. You've collected flashlights but none of those have had much field use. I have never been referring to whether it looks pretty when brand new or works new out of the box. I'm referring to actually putting them to task, depending on them to keep working hour after hour, day after day. I doubt the Tank007's threads would even hold up to that many battery cycles.

    On the other hand, if someone barely ever uses a light, sure any random generic will last a longer # of months to years before failure.

  28. #88
    Flashaholic* Rosoku Chikara's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by J_C View Post
    ...On the other hand, if someone barely ever uses a light, sure any random generic will last a longer # of months to years before failure...<snip>
    I am sorry to have to keep going "on-and-on" about the same subject, but you must not be reading my posts very closely.

    The 10 AAA flashlights shown in the photo are indeed, pretty much still brand new. They are only used as a kind of "masterset" against which to compare other AAA flashlights.

    But, as I wrote in my post, I always carry another TANK007 E09 with me every day (on my keychain), and it sees nearly daily use for peaking into dark nooks and locating keyholes, etc.

    Not a single problem of any kind, so far. And, as I also wrote, I have now purchased over a dozen of these particular low cost flashlights, and they all came to me in fine condition.

    Furthermore, despite the fact that I have offered a "full warranty" to everyone I have given one to (I tell them that if they will bring it back to me, I will gladly replace it.), so far, no one has ever brought one to back to me. (Perhaps my clients might hesitate to do so, but certainly none of my friends would.)

    Once again, I repeat my question: What "generics" are you referring to? Have you ever tried a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone (Given your rather dogmatic statements, I believe that these are highly relevant questions. Please kindly respond.)
    Last edited by Rosoku Chikara; 03-01-2014 at 12:04 AM.
    My avatar photo is that of a small handmade toy boat that propels itself along the water in a realistic "chug-chug" kind of motion, yet is powered entirely by CandlePower. (Japanese children used to make them out of various types of junk, but now they are largely a "lost art.")

  29. #89
    Flashaholic* Rosoku Chikara's Avatar
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    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by J_C View Post
    ...I doubt the Tank007's threads would even hold up to that many battery cycles...<snip>
    Upon what facts are you basing this "doubt"? Here is a photo of the threads of both flashlights (TANK007 E09 & ITP EOS A3). Can you tell at a glance which is which?



    The correct answer is: the ITP is on the left. The ITP seems to have very slightly higher thread pitch, but the TANK007 certainly more than makes up for that by having many more threads. They both operate very smoothly, and appear to be the product of good precision machining.

    My camera cannot take any better close ups, but upon close and careful visual inspection in good light, my eyes (which are pretty good), cannot see any significant differences in thread profile. Both of these flashlight bodies are machined from the same aircraft-grade aluminum T6061.

    Therefore, I see no factual basis whatsoever in your prognosis of early thread failure for the TANK007 E09.
    Last edited by Rosoku Chikara; 03-01-2014 at 12:06 AM.
    My avatar photo is that of a small handmade toy boat that propels itself along the water in a realistic "chug-chug" kind of motion, yet is powered entirely by CandlePower. (Japanese children used to make them out of various types of junk, but now they are largely a "lost art.")

  30. #90

    Default Re: CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosoku Chikara View Post
    Furthermore, despite the fact that I have offered a "full warranty" to everyone I have given one to (I tell them that if they will bring it back to me, I will gladly replace it.), so far, no one has ever brought one to me. (Perhaps my clients might hesitate to do so, but certainly none of my friends would.)

    Once again, I repeat my question: What "generics" are you referring to? Have you ever tried a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone (Given your rather dogmatic statements, I believe that these are highly relevant questions. Please kindly respond.)
    Yes I've used a SK68 clone. The rear switch broke. It wasn't worth fixing, will be an LED and driver donor some day. I think it would be a fine light to leave sitting next to an electrical breaker box or a spare in a tool box, where it doesn't get used because my higher quality lights are always reached for first.

    At this point my apathy will cause my retirement from the topic. I pay more so I don't have to deal with all the generics and I'm especially not going to go to even further hassle of remembering all the generic brands and models to list. The whole point is NOT to do any of this, not to buy, order, break, then discuss inferior lights that have already proven to me to be a false value for regular use.

    I feel the same way about many items like pocket knives, other tools, clothing, etc. Give me quality over quantity. I only use one at a time.

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