Philips Saferide demo discussion day 19 January

swhs

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To come soon: Report on the Philips demo/discussion day about their Saferide lamps (in Aachen, Germany, 19 January)

I will probably miss the introduction as the train takes so long to get there from Alphen a.d. Rijn (4 hours to Aachen (Hauptbahnhof) so I'll get there at ca. 10.00 at the earliest when it all starts, but then I still have to get to the testlab some way away), hmm... I'll see if there's another option to get there. I'm going to ask why they haven't improved the lamps in the way I would like it, hehe ;-)

So, I have a bunch of questions that I'm going to ask the technical people, and I'll make suggestions of course similar to on my webpages. If you have anything you'd like to know, write it in this thread and I'll see what I can find out. I won't have internet on the 19th as I don't have a mobile with internet.

Part of the programme:
10.30: Tour through the test lab with explanation about testing and measurments of the lightbeam

13.00: Background information on measurements and the 'making of' of the Philips SafeRide LED BikeLight (I think they mean the whole series, not the LBL)
14.00: Discussion


I asked whether I could make pics for my website, I haven't got a yes/no yet but I'll take my camera just in case.
 

Savvas

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Hi wwhs,

Boy - what an interesting opportunity! Here's my list (gleaned mainly from discussions I've read at CPF) of questions/issues I'd like to be put to the engineers etc at Philips. Concerns dynamo model only!

1. Mount - please improve, get rid of apparent stress risers and establish some sort of standard with other light makers.
2. Please improve tail light contact on dynamo model (ie; get rid of trailing wires)
3. Please improve the mechanical feedback from dynamo docel's switch (ie; I want something that 'clicks')
4. Please provide a version of the dynamo model that uses the latest and most powerful of leds suitable for dynamo use.

Thanks,

Savvas.
 

mrradlos

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Hello swhs

I would really like to see
1. a 18650-battery version of the light (with the possibility of replacing the cells).
2. It should use the most powerful LEDs -I presume Philips won't use Cree LEDs?
3. Most important: They should sell the reflector - so we could build a light with all our wishes!!!

Gute Reise!
 

HakanC

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I would really like to see
1. a voltage regulated input for an external-battery, ie the possibility to connetct, lets say, 6 V - 12V external batteries.
 

Steve K

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Hello swhs

I would really like to see
1. a 18650-battery version of the light (with the possibility of replacing the cells).
2. It should use the most powerful LEDs -I presume Philips won't use Cree LEDs?
3. Most important: They should sell the reflector - so we could build a light with all our wishes!!!

Gute Reise!

My guess at Philips response to these queries:
1. costs too much to sell a version for both NiMH and Lithium batteries. The added cost of a second set of tools for the injection molded plastic is probably $20,000 to $50,000 (USD), so you'd have to sell a lot to recover the cost. Plus, you now have another product to design packaging, a manual, etc., for. You'd have to sell a lot to make it worthwhile, and I'm guessing that not many people are already using 18650's .

2. Since the current design is using Philips' Luxeon LEDs, I think it's safe to say that you'll never see Cree LEDs installed.

3. Philips isn't interested in selling small plastic parts for $5 each when they can sell a light for $189 (according to Amazon). Well, not unless they could sell 100,000 of the reflectors, perhaps. It's just a lot of trouble to sell and stock a bunch of small parts.

To be honest, I really haven't been tracking this thread, but now that I see that the light costs $189USD, I'm a bit shocked! On the plus side, it makes me feel a lot better about my current project: retrofitting a Cree XR-E and Ledil Rocket SS into an old Cateye Micro II!

Steve K.
 

swhs

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To be honest, I really haven't been tracking this thread, but now that I see that the light costs $189USD, I'm a bit shocked! On the plus side, it makes me feel a lot better about my current project: retrofitting a Cree XR-E and Ledil Rocket SS into an old Cateye Micro II!

Steve K.

Steve, there were just 4 posts in this thread! I think you should try to read all 4 :)

But seriously, there's no way you are ever going to come close to the LBL with a a single XR-E retrofit.

Other replies:
> 1. a voltage regulated input for an external-battery, ie the possibility to connetct, lets say, 6 V - 12V external batteries.

See the e-bike and pedelec versions. These are OEM-only but may become available for loose sale. Long ago (2010) I already suggested they should do this. I will get an e-bike version for testing, hopefully soon (these things take quite some time from 'we'll send one' to 'postman rings'...).


Using other LEDs: Philips make their own LEDs, so they're never going to use Cree LEDs. The rebels/altilons are not that far behind the XM-L (esp. with measured samples instead of datasheets) but most importantly, the emitting surface is smaller. The altilon is best and I'd like to see the 4 side-by-side altilon used... This would give dual LBL power on the road. I ran with a LBL + SLD-on LBL driver at the same time and it's quite impressive (though to be honest completely unnecessary). It is very hard to make a good cutoff optic with high lux rating (important for throw) with the XP-G never mind the XM-L. The optics firm doing the work for Supernova failed miserably trying to do this with the XP-G, and even with XP-E where it is StVZO compliant, the lux rating is very low. You notice this as it seems your lamp doesn't shine far in situations with stray light such as from car headlamps.

There is a DIY lamp from someone experimenting on a German recumbent forum that I want to test, using XM-L, the beam seems even better than the LBL, but it's really big. Using an optic from a Xenon headlamp for quads. At least the size of the B&M Big bang. Too big for normal bikes.

Oh, I've changed my plan, I'm going the 18th and will have a look around Aachen, so I'll be in time for the start :)
 

Steve K

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Steve, there were just 4 posts in this thread! I think you should try to read all 4 :)

But seriously, there's no way you are ever going to come close to the LBL with a a single XR-E retrofit.

My brain meant to say that I haven't been following the other threads on this light...

but.. it would be nice to be able to buy optics/reflectors that are equivalent to the Philips light and make your own. A symmetric optic like the Ledil Rocket is definitely a compromise for road riding. Still, I'm using this arrangement for my dynamo light, and it's not bad. For now, I'll just wait for someone to hand me their dead Philips or equivalent light, and I'll retrofit some current LEDs into it.

Steve K.
 

Savvas

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There is a DIY lamp from someone experimenting on a German recumbent forum that I want to test, using XM-L, the beam seems even better than the LBL, but it's really big. Using an optic from a Xenon headlamp for quads. At least the size of the B&M Big bang. Too big for normal bikes.

Link? Pictures?

thanks,
Savvas
 

HakanC

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Other replies:
> 1. a voltage regulated input for an external-battery, ie the possibility to connetct, lets say, 6 V - 12V external batteries.

See the e-bike and pedelec versions. These are OEM-only but may become available for loose sale. Long ago (2010) I already suggested they should do this. I will get an e-bike version for testing, hopefully soon (these things take quite some time from 'we'll send one' to 'postman rings'...).

The e-bike light sounds really interesting, could you please ask Philips about the availability to the public for the e-bike light?
(If you read this before your meeting)
 

HakanC

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it would be nice to be able to buy optics/reflectors that are equivalent to the Philips light and make your own. A symmetric optic like the Ledil Rocket is definitely a compromise for road riding. Still, I'm using this arrangement for my dynamo light, and it's not bad. For now, I'll just wait for someone to hand me their dead Philips or equivalent light, and I'll retrofit some current LEDs into it.
You could buy a donor-light and retrofit modern LEDs, this would be a good donor:
XC-997B from DX
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/xc-997b-cree-3w-200lm-3-mode-white-led-bicycle-bike-light-4-x-aa-108640
 

Steve K

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You could buy a donor-light and retrofit modern LEDs, this would be a good donor:
XC-997B from DX
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/xc-997b-cree-3w-200lm-3-mode-white-led-bicycle-bike-light-4-x-aa-108640

If the beam was of sufficient quality, it might be a good choice. Is there any info out there to say that it compares favorably with the Philips or other highly regarded lights? There's also the question of whether the rest of the design is adequate. My first concern would be whether it had sufficient heatsinking, or any heatsinking at all. The quality of the mounting hardware would also be a concern.
If the beam was good enough, it might be worth keeping the reflector and LED mounting fixture and scrap the rest.

regards,
Steve K.
 

HakanC

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panicmechanic

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Link? Pictures?
Here you go. He's constantly fiddling on the design, also uses different halogen/xenon lights to mod, open or enclosed optics. The beam gets best in the latest samples, so be sure to read to the end. The comparison pictures are shot with similar wattage, not the maximum power for the XM-L, in order to compare better with PBL and Busch&Mueller.
 

mrradlos

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I built a street light myself - probably even bigger than the german light. But it has the benefit of yellow sidelight and light going back to the moving knees (well visible from further away). I think there is still too much light going up though ...
 

Steve K

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Steve:
It was only a suggestion.
But I agree that you would need more then one XC-997B to get a light beam of sufficient quality, mainly width.

Have you seen this thread :
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?324828-Build-thread-double-XM-L-road-lights
Perhaps this reflector from DX could be used for a similar light:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/53mm-30mm-aluminum-textured-op-reflector-for-cree-xr-e-emitters-18841

I did participate in the thread that you mention, and the idea of mounting a led sideways in a repurposed incandescent housing dates back a number of years to work done by Olaf Schultz and company. I've got an old BiSY headlamp sitting around that was intended for this purpose.

Still, it's not easy to do well. With the BiSY (and the work done by Olaf), you need to use both the reflector and the optics to get the beam pattern that was obtained as an incandescent light.
And, of course, you have to start out with a light that has a good beam pattern to begin with. I've got old Lumtecs and old
Cateye battery lights that I would never bother to convert to LED (while utilizing their original reflector & optics) because their beams were poor.

I do think that the more recent LED lights that utilize just reflectors to create a good beam pattern are on the right path. These don't emit any light directly from the LED; instead, it is all handled and directed by the reflector first. As the emitters get smaller, the reflectors can also get smaller, which is a good thing.

Personally, I'm not in a rush to use a single LED and reflector, but that's just because I finally got my multi-LED light running with the variable power and the standlight features. :)
I need to get some use out of it before I try to figure out how to do the same thing with a single LED.

Steve K.
 

mrradlos

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I've got old Lumtecs and old Cateye battery lights that I would never bother to convert to LED (while utilizing their original reflector & optics) because their beams were poor.

Steve K.

I copied mfj197 and must say that gives the best beam pattern I have seen from a simple reflector! Just go ahead and try it out!
An aspheric lens is quite good as well!
 

Steve K

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I copied mfj197 and must say that gives the best beam pattern I have seen from a simple reflector! Just go ahead and try it out!
An aspheric lens is quite good as well!

But is it as good as a well designed beam such as the Philips light that is under discussion, or some of the other lights held in high regard (Edelux? one of the Cyo lights?)? A reflector that allows a significant amount of light to simply radiate forward won't do a good job of controlling the beam pattern. It might be good enough, as I've had fairly good results with lights that had a very tight hot spot from the reflector, and used the spill light to light the portion of the road between the hot spot and the bike.

I guess my point is that if you don't already have a decent light, then adopting a symmetric optic or a basic reflector may be good enough. If you already have a light that is good enough (as in my case), then waiting for a very good reflector/optic is the preferred choice.

Steve K.
 

swhs

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Philips Saferide demo + discussion day 19 January: Preliminary information

Back on topic (please make a different topic for experimental lamps...):

I'm back from Germany, did some shopping for muesli and tea too ;-)

The first I noticed getting to Aachen which immediately showed the difference between the Netherlands and Germany was the DB euregiobahn train for the last section, not only could I hear what was being announced (extremely difficult in NL) due to better pronounciation and I think a better sound system, but they also say "Ausstieg in Fahrtrichtung links" (or "rechts") to indicate which side you need to get out (a guessing game in NL) and to make sure you know what left/right is, "in Fahrtrichtung" (in the direction of travelling). Deutsch Gruendlichkeit, I like it :)

Those present were from DE and NL, English was spoken to make sure everyone understood each other, but in the latter part with technical discussion and suggestions it was almost entirely in German (after last night I'm still thinking in German ;-))

The meeting was with people from magazines in particular, and a trade business mag. and more.

The meeting was held in the measurement lab for the car and bicycle lamps. I've got pictures of everything, and need to write it all up. We also got a tour of the HID production line and explanation how they were made was quite interesting.

So, that's it for now, probably later today I will have an extensive description with pictures etc.

Wouter
 

mrradlos

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But is it as good as a well designed beam such as the Philips light that is under discussion, or some of the other lights held in high regard (Edelux? one of the Cyo lights?)? A reflector that allows a significant amount of light to simply radiate forward won't do a good job of controlling the beam pattern. It might be good enough, as I've had fairly good results with lights that had a very tight hot spot from the reflector, and used the spill light to light the portion of the road between the hot spot and the bike.

I guess my point is that if you don't already have a decent light, then adopting a symmetric optic or a basic reflector may be good enough. If you already have a light that is good enough (as in my case), then waiting for a very good reflector/optic is the preferred choice.

Steve K.

I replaced my Bosch+Müller Lumotec Lyt with the self build. I have the Fly on a other bicycle. A round reflector or TIR-optic can't do what half a cat-eye reflector or a big, fat aspheric lense do!

I wanted to buy the Philips Saferide (dynamo version), but then found someone that made that little driver for a DIY-light. Of course the cut off with the Saferide is probably even better than what we can do. It would be nice to see a dynamo version with three or four LEDs or two LEDs with double the current.
 
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mrradlos

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Re: Philips Saferide demo + discussion day 19 January: Preliminary information

I'm back from Germany, did some shopping for muesli and tea too ;-)

Those present were from DE and NL, English was spoken to make sure everyone understood each other, but in the latter part with technical discussion and suggestions it was almost entirely in German (after last night I'm still thinking in German ;-))

Wouter

I'm looking forward to your pictures and description. If you write it in German all better for me ... ;) ... and if you want to buy proper Müesli you have to come here next time ... ;)
 
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