Backup lamp options

Status
Not open for further replies.

nozoxon

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
7
Hello, all!

New member here with a few questions. I'll break them up into different threads so that I don't start out "Off topic" in my own thread in my first post!

I have a 2002 Suzuki Esteem station wagon. I love the little car. I recently moved out of the city and into the country. I've now found out that my backup bulbs are made solely so that other drivers can see me. I can't see anything with them!

Backing up, I need to drive with my foot on the brake enough to light up the brake lights in order to see anything, and of course, that is still poor visibility due to the light being red. The fallen leaves and brown grass makes everything sort of indistinguishable!

My backup bulbs are the 921 variety, which from doing searches on here, it seems like upgrades are few and far between.

I'd rather not mount rear auxiliary lights because this is a tiny station wagon, and I already drag the bumper at times going over uneven terrain. Lights mounted below the bumper just wouldn't last. I have seen someone else post a link and pictures to a license plate LED frame that you wire to the backup light circuit, but that seemed a little too bright for me. Also, it seemed like the build quality of the LED license plate was just as good as just about anything else made with LED's. Lifespan of about 1 yr or so before problems start. Also, not sure about the legality of something like that in PA. I would think that at least I would need it on a toggle switch and only use it on deserted country roads. I would think it would be illegal, or at least rude to use it in the city, even if there wasn't anyone else around. It just looks too brite in the advertising.


I was really hoping for a 921 bulb alternative, and that was how I found this forum. Now it looks like there really isn't an alternative!!! Anyone out there have any suggestions?

Is it legal to mount an auxiliary lamp inside the vehicle, like in the back glass at the same level as th HMSL? If I went that route, I wouldn't even wire it to the backup light circuit. I would just run it off a toggle switch and turn it on when I needed it backing up country roads.

I really don't need a lot more light when it really comes down to it. If I had a white light as bright as my brake/tail lights (which I think are 27 watts per bulb), I think I would be OK with that. As it is now, when I'm looking out the back and switch the reverse lights on, I really can't see a difference in visibility. I'm backing up solely on brake lights!


Thanks for any help or information you can provide.


Frank
 

iroc409

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
86
I've not tried it myself, and I don't know if your car could handle it, but you can modify an 886 bulb to work with a 921. They've done it on some of the Tacoma forums, and claim it works well.

You cut the bulb off of the base right at the plastic base. You might have to give a slight little bend to the metal. BUT... a 921 is 18W, and an 886 is 50W. So, you have to consider wiring and housing durability.

I can't say whether it's a good idea or not, but it's technically possible to do.
 

nozoxon

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
7
Wow, going from 18 W to 50 W would be a huge step up. I think I would definitley need a heavier guage wire. Looking at the voltage drop chart on Daniel Stern's website mentioned on this forum a few times, I definitley think I'd be cooking wires. Especially since my car was originally designed as a car and not a station wagon. I'd be willing to bet that they didn't upgrade the guage of wire in order to run another 4ft of distance back for the station wagon version.

So, I'd be willing to bet that even with the 18 watt bulb, it was probably close to the max amperage.


Thanks for the heads up, though. I think I might run to my local walmart and pick up a few, and try it out on a test stand. I have a non-contact thermometer that I'll measure temps with at the wire, connector, and bulb and compare the 2.

Funny how there are no bulbs around the same wattage that are compatible or near compatible. You go from 18W to 50W! No step in between!


I've been looking around for a bulb in the low 20's or so.


Thanks for the info, Iroc!
 

Hamilton Felix

Enlightened
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
933
Location
Marblemount, WA, USA
Just today, I ordered two of the Raybrig R118 bulbs to try in my 2007 Corolla - which also uses the 921 bulb.

I ordered from Options Auto, $7.98 for the bulbs, $11.31 for shipping. So for $19.29 I'll soon be able to tell you if they seem better than the stock 921 bulbs.

But I'm not getting my hopes up. You won't get a LOT more light unless you go for those high wattage halogen replacements that will melt your lights if your wiring can carry them, or be dimmer than stock if the wiring cannot.

NO, I'm hoping for a detectable improvement. But I'm planning to add auxiliary backup lights, with their own power source, switched by a relay that can be controlled by the stock backup lights. (Modern cars use Electronic Control Modules. You can't always get away with adding load to a lighting circuit.)
 

HB021

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
163
Location
Sweden
I'm using 921 LED back up lights... Using Cree Q5 mounted on a heatsink and a convex lens. I'm guessing they're 200lm with a nice blue shine :)
 

nozoxon

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
7
Just today, I ordered two of the Raybrig R118 bulbs to try in my 2007 Corolla - which also uses the 921 bulb.


Hamilton, I'd love to hear a review of your Raybrigs once you get a chance to install them. I had seen them recommended in threads I found using the search feature earlier, and was going to order them if I couldn't find a different bulb. Good luck to ya, and I hope they work out for ya!



HB021
I'm using 921 LED back up lights... Using Cree Q5 mounted on a heatsink and a convex lens. I'm guessing they're 200lm with a nice blue shine :)
HB021,

I like to tweak things by nature, and that sounds real interesting to do. Heck, it sounds like it would be fun to attempt, whether my results were good or not. I just found this forum a few days ago, and I never really gave flashlights a second thought. Now, all of a sudden, I want to build my own!
As far as my car goes, though, I think I had better practice building a few flashlights before I start making my own automotive lights. If the flashlight shorts out or gets too hot, I can always drop it. If my tail lights catch on fire, I won't know it until my bumper melted off!



Thanks for your help!

Frank
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
I'm using 921 LED back up lights... Using Cree Q5 mounted on a heatsink and a convex lens. I'm guessing they're 200lm with a nice blue shine :)

The lighting modifications/products you're recommending are illegal. Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal activity. Please stop it now.
 

HB021

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
163
Location
Sweden
The lighting modifications/products you're recommending are illegal. Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal activity. Please stop it now.

Ok I'm sorry but I didn't know and I can't see how this is illegal? It's not like I'm blinding someone of the road...

This is a forum for light freaks, relax....

These are the ones I'm using:
http://www.ledlight.com/5w_cree_q5_t15_921_9-15vdc_120_degree_led_light.aspx

Are they illegal?
 
Last edited:

AnAppleSnail

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
4,200
Location
South Hill, VA
Ok I'm sorry but I didn't know and I can't see how this is illegal? It's not like I'm blinding someone of the road...

This is a forum for light freaks, relax....

These are the ones I'm using:
http://www.ledlight.com/5w_cree_q5_t15_921_9-15vdc_120_degree_led_light.aspx

Are they illegal?

On our light freak forum, notice who has MODERATOR under their name ;)

Modifying car lighting - signal, primary lighting, or just about any exterior light (there are limits on license plate lights!), is not okay. Manufacturers certify that the lighting installed on cars they cell is safe, legal, and fine for use. The DOT does not do this certification (Any site that says "DOT certified upgrade kits!!!!!" should be lined up and burned to the ground).

Those lights are not illegal, but mounting them on your car is illegal and likely unsafe.
 

HB021

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
163
Location
Sweden
On our light freak forum, notice who has MODERATOR under their name ;)

Modifying car lighting - signal, primary lighting, or just about any exterior light (there are limits on license plate lights!), is not okay. Manufacturers certify that the lighting installed on cars they cell is safe, legal, and fine for use. The DOT does not do this certification (Any site that says "DOT certified upgrade kits!!!!!" should be lined up and burned to the ground).

Those lights are not illegal, but mounting them on your car is illegal and likely unsafe.

Likely unsafe, in what way? I don't mean to be a smart *** but what's the big deal about this? I understand that aftermarket conversion of low beam could blind people but this is two innocent 5w LED back up light. Probably same amount of lumens just another color, 6500k....
 

AnAppleSnail

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
4,200
Location
South Hill, VA
Likely unsafe, in what way? I don't mean to be a smart *** but what's the big deal about this? I understand that aftermarket conversion of low beam could blind people but this is two innocent 5w LED back up light. Probably same amount of lumens just another color, 6500k....

Consider these scenarios.

A quiet night, you're backing out onto the road to drive home from Thanksgiving at the parents'. Your modified backup lights let you see where the mailbox is and get onto the road and start away. You hear a loud crash as an approaching car runs off the road into the trees behind you. What happened? White lights, that bright, in the rear of the car look too much like headlights for safety. The driver of the car back there thought there were headlights in his lane, and tried to avoid a head-on collision. This is one reason not to make custom car lights, they don't look right.

You run from the store to the car and jump inside to get out of the driving rain in the late afternoon. Gloomy clouds make things dim, and you put the car in reverse. The view out the rearview goes from blurry and wet parking lot to white-wall mist. You creep slowly backwards until you hear a loud CRUNCH. The overbright LEDs with poorly-chosen optics (looks like 20 degrees half-width) just wash out your view. The light thrown back to you blinds you to the light coming from outside, rather than helping you see.

To me, those are reasonable scenarios. I frequently encounter cars backing onto the road - but because their marker lights are brighter than their backup lights, I KNOW that I'm seeing the back of a slow car in my lane, not the front of a fast car.

I also often have to back out of parking spaces in heavy rain. In those cases, I'm glad that my lights don't blind me with glare from the rain. It only takes once for these errors to be quite expensive.


Further:
"This LED has a very nice heat sink to make the led lights last longer."
I fail to see how a heatsink will function in a properly waterproofed reverse light unit. On my previous car, the center unit could be modified heavily to allow airflow to the cabin, but this is the worst one to but a bright light in.

"120 degree viewing angle."
This sounds worse and worse for use in driving. This light will dominate the marker lights to show that the back of your car, is a back. They will do poorly in compromised visibility, and be too bright to anyone nearby.

"5W Cree Q5." Running any LED at 5W enclosed in a plastic case is a bad idea, even if it is an XP-G. If it's an XP-E then they are overdriving it viciously. This unit smacks of poor optical and thermal design, especially for the claimed use of automotive lighting. Illegal, unsafe, and unlikely to last very long.
 
Last edited:

Alaric Darconville

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 2, 2001
Messages
5,377
Location
Stillwater, America
(Any site that says "DOT certified upgrade kits!!!!!" should be lined up and burned to the ground).

Those lights are not illegal, but mounting them on your car is illegal and likely unsafe.

If the products can be physically installed in existing regulated vehicle lighting, and render them inoperative (inoperative includes failing to conform to photometric requirements, not just failure to light at all), they are illegal per se.
 

HB021

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
163
Location
Sweden
Consider these scenarios.

A quiet night, you're backing out onto the road to drive home from Thanksgiving at the parents'. Your modified backup lights let you see where the mailbox is and get onto the road and start away. You hear a loud crash as an approaching car runs off the road into the trees behind you. What happened? White lights, that bright, in the rear of the car look too much like headlights for safety. The driver of the car back there thought there were headlights in his lane, and tried to avoid a head-on collision. This is one reason not to make custom car lights, they don't look right.

The ones I'm using are not brighter than stock bulbs, you're really overexaggerating this! 5w is probably not true either I'd bet they're 2-3w. I'll measure the voltage and current drawn and look it up on Crees data sheet and post back here the actual output. The main thing that's different is the color temperature, not the brightness.

Bought a new 2011 with all HID light and stock DRL and LED turn signals, break signals etc. But interior, fog and back up light was ugly yellow incandescent bulbs which I switched to LED so now all my lights are around 6000k to match the HIDs. You'll probably hate me for this but I can't see anything unsafe with any of my incandescent to LED conversions...
 

Alaric Darconville

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 2, 2001
Messages
5,377
Location
Stillwater, America
I'm using 921 LED back up lights... Using Cree Q5 mounted on a heatsink and a convex lens. I'm guessing they're 200lm with a nice blue shine :)
Guessing.

this is two innocent 5w LED back up light. Probably same amount of lumens
Another guess.

5w is probably not true either I'd bet they're 2-3w. I'll measure the voltage and current drawn and look it up on Crees data sheet and post back here the actual output.
First, you say they are 5W, then you "bet" they're not. Which is it? Why did you purchase equipment to use in regulated automotive safety equipment without understanding their real specifications?

I'll measure the voltage and current drawn and look it up on Crees data sheet and post back here the actual output.
That will give us the wattage, but remember that light is measured with a lightmeter (for very simple readings at certain test points) or an integrating sphere (to get the total luminous flux), not by the amount of power consumed. The data sheets are a guideline, the actual measured output is the (wait for it, waiiiiit for it) actual measured output.

Bought a new 2011 with all HID light and stock DRL and LED turn signals, break (sic) signals etc. But interior, fog and back up light was ugly yellow incandescent bulbs which I switched to LED so now all my lights are around 6000k to match the HIDs.
The interior lamps are typically white, and reverse lamps should certainly be white, not yellow. Did they stick the wrong bulbs in the reverse lamps? (HINT: No, they didn't)
Fog lamps can be either white or selective yellow-- selective yellow is a better choice than white.
The only road-legal CCT for HIDs is nominal 4100-4250. Your "6000K" lights don't match, or once again, your new 2011 has the wrong bulbs installed. (HINT: They don't)

I can't see anything unsafe with any of my incandescent to LED conversions...
Maybe that should be "can't see anything with my unsafe LED conversions".
 
Last edited:

iroc409

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
86
If they are not brighter than stock, then why waste the money upgrading? You won't save an appreciable amount of electricity since they are just reverse lights.

The Tacoma forums have been trying these LEDs out as well. They are brighter than the stock 921's, but they have some undesirable qualities. For people that have the reverse cameras, they changed the light pattern to make them unusable. The light doesn't hit the ground until several feet behind the truck, so most of the viewable area is dark. The people that have "upgraded" to the 5W Cree units say they are significantly brighter than stock.

For the OP, I'd look at the fuse rating. Your wiring should be able to carry the full rating of the fuse for the circuit, otherwise it's a pretty poorly designed circuit. 50W @ 12.8V rating is 3.9A. One of the automotive wire gauge charts I have laying around says you can run 20GA wiring for a 4A load to 20 feet and expect up to a 10% voltage drop. Another chart I have says 20GA is good for 11A with chassis wiring (most likely just considering safety, and not voltage drop). I'd probably be more worried about melting your reverse light housing.

Can you stick a 7440 into a 921 outlet? My wife's car uses 7440's, and her reverse lights are brighter than my truck's. It's probably not a vast improvement, but the 7440's are 25W and wouldn't be as much of a jump. I've never had them out to compare size, and it's hard to tell from pictures.
 

HB021

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
163
Location
Sweden
If they are not brighter than stock, then why waste the money upgrading? You won't save an appreciable amount of electricity since they are just reverse lights.

I only "wasted my money" because of the looks, I wanted more blue color temperature all around.
59a04f3c-0bb0-7cc2.jpg


Btw sorry to everyone who got offended by my illegal recommendation.
 
Last edited:

iroc409

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
86
I only "wasted my money" because of the looks, I wanted more blue color temperature all around.

Ahh... a valid reason (changing the looks), though you won't get much love from removing the proper lighting colors from the car. :)
 

HB021

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
163
Location
Sweden
Ahh... a valid reason (changing the looks), though you won't get much love from removing the proper lighting colors from the car. :)

Not here apparently, I do in most other places though. This wasn't really the reaction I expected...
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
Ok I'm sorry but I didn't know and I can't see how this is illegal?

Sounds like you didn't do your homework. That doesn't mean there's no such thing as the mandatory legal requirements for reversing lamp performance which your car no longer meets because of the "LED bulbs", and it doesn't mean the rules don't apply to you.

This is a forum for light freaks, relax....

Excuse you: This is a board for automotive lighting, which is heavily regulated for safety reasons. Do not sass back to the moderators. That's in Rule 8. Looks like you didn't read the rules on here, either. Just as in the case of the lighting regulations you didn't take the time to read and understand, the rules on this forum apply to you even if you haven't read them, so go read them now.
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
I only "wasted my money" because of the looks, I wanted more blue color temperature all around.

Blue is not a "color temperature", and the lights on your car are life safety equipment, not fashion toys.

sorry to everyone who got offended

There is no offense, there is only the requirement that you stop recommending illegal car lights. Now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top