Replacing Lights in parking lot

[ryguy24000]

+1 in Fritzhid post!!!!! As a journeyman electrician with 19 years experience I think you have some solutions, but 2 would be the easiest. up the wattage or add a few more lights. Your trying to light an area the size of about a football field. i am not sure how bright you want it to be but 5 light poles in this much area seems a little week no matter how bright the lights.

[Ken_McE]

Hi Scott,

Lot of good advice here already, I'll put in my .02c worth, try not to repeat too much.

You already have a high quality setup. LEDs may not actually help you, and they certainly won't help you cheaply.

Perhaps the simplest move you could make is to send around a guy with a bucket truck. Change out every bulb, (The bulbs dim with age) check that every reflector is still fully shiny, check that the lenses are clean and clear. Fix/change anything that isn't.

Go out that night, see if the lot is acceptable. If yes, go back up every few years and repeat the process. If no, add one more fixture per pole and up your lighting by 1/3rd. get fixtures that look pretty much the same and use the same bulbs and ballasts.

Should you care to, we would be curious to hear what you try and how it works out.

[blasterman]

100w flood LED lights are available from ebay, alibaba, madeinchina, satisled, dhgate...... I'd wager that in 2-5 years you'd have more options and better results.

99.99% of which are junk, have misleading lumen specs, impossible to enforce warranties, and who knows what color quality. Maybe something you'd stuff on the side of your garage, but not something I'd use for mainstream parking lot lighting and likely illegal in commercial applications. There's no need to do a search on E-bay when we already know it's junk and the legitimate products worth buying aren't being sold on E-bay or Chinese resellers. If the product doesn't claim what type of LED tech it's using, and Chinese lights rarely do, then move one.

LED is capable of doing this project given the performance of *non_Chinese* LED fixtures in the 200-300watt range easily surpass 400watt daylight halides. Recent commercial LED fixtures I've seen also have better color than daylight halide given the bulbs used in the later are often around 60-65CRI. The problem is price, so I'd appreciate the comments claiming "LED isn't there yet" to stop because the only basis *is* price, and price is not a technical problem.

Low end lumen levels for parking lots are typically around .5 to 2 footcandles with some regulations requiring higher levels for street entrances. Looking at the map the OP put up 400watt halides in a decent fixture can meet basic illumination levels, and will be the cheapest option.

[JohnR66]

You've got good commercial grade MH fixtures now. I wouldn't monkey with them. Just re-lamp every 2 - 3 years. You've got money burning a hole in your pocket? I'd let LEDs mature a few more years. Seems like something new and better is out every couple months. You might put something up and regret it in two years.

[deadrx7conv]

There are no facts to support that 99.99% of what is imported is junk. And, there will never be.

The dozen of online sourced spot/flood/street-lights that I'm using, along with dozens that I've installed for family/friends/neighbors/colleagues, are all WORKING PERFECTLY for their intended purpose. And yes, they were sourced from Asia and not necessarily only _China.

What the LED is capable of doing, compared to the actual LED products that are being sold, are two completely different things. So, I'll word it differently so that it can undersood a little better, the LED products that are being sold today aren't as capable as what we'd expect from the current crop of LEDs available.

From the looks of your Electricians lighting recommendation, it looks like that they purposely are making the LED option a complete FAILURE.
I also find that contract electricians(and tradesmen in general) stick to what they only think will work and refuse to adapt or move forward to newer products and technology. So, if you're not happy with the options that your outdoor lighting contractor gave you, go get estimates from their competitors.

For outdoor lot/street lighting, if we cared about color quality, HPS wouldn't exist.

Depending on the type of business, the cheapest option is not always the best option.
LED installations for some companies lead to 'free advertisement' covered in the news and by word of mouth.
If we didn't monkey around with stuff, we'd still be living in caves.

I also will recommend that you research induction lighting since retrofits are available for most fixtures:
http://www.everlastlight.com/compare_hid_lighting.html
https://sites.google.com/site/inductionstreetlighting/street-lighting-technologies/induction-vs-hps
http://carolinainductionlighting.com/

[hank]

also: http://www.darkskysociety.org/handou...dehandbook.pdf

[Srega]

Ok, So I am meeting with one of the lighting contractors that is bidding on the project Monday and he is supposedly bringing an LED expert with him. I was just wondering if you all had any specific questions I should ask him. From what I've read on here it sounds like one power surge could wipe out every light, which is a big concern, since one of the advantages is fewer bulb replacements.
For those of you that asked the bid does include installing 2 additional light poles for additional light.
Thanks again for everyones help.

[idleprocess]

Some questions you might ask for LED that come to mind...

1) Who makes the finished lights? Who makes the LED's? How long has the company been in business? What is their warranty like?

2) What's the color temperature? Do they have a spectral power distribution chart?
This is important because the cheapest way to get bigger lumens from white LED is to use blue-heavy high color temperatures which have negatives similar to HPS: color rendering and depth perception sucks. 5000K is probably about the highest color temperature you're going to want.

3) What's the light output in lumens? Candalla at your mounting height? What's output like under extreme high temperatures for your area? Are they using "bulb" lumens/candella or fixture lumens/candella? What is the light distribution like? Is it comparable to your existing setup, better, worse?

4) What's their MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure)? When they experience failures (and they all do), what component(s) fail? Are their units field-serviceable? If so, who can/will perform service? What kind of surge protection do they have built into the drivers? What kind of environmental resistances do they have?

5) How many watts of electricity do the units consume? Have any of their previous customers complained about RF interference or other electronics being effected? Do they have any automatic/power saving features (timers/programmability, network connectivity, or photo-eyes)?



Others with more experience in these matters may offer up better questions to ask.

[Steve K]

what sort of EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) and power transient testing do they do? I only ask because this is the stuff I'm involved with at work. There is the EN61000 standard that is used for the stationary equipment that I deal with. Maybe it is indicative of whatever standards apply to street lights?

Emissions will be one area of interest... you don't want the power supply creating so much electical noise that people can't use their radios or GPS.

Susceptibility is probably not a huge concern, unless it is near a TV or radio station's transmitter.

I'd be a bit concerned about susceptibility to lightning transients. There is the risk of strikes directly to the light, but I don't know if anything would survive that. The bigger concern is whether that voltage transient will travel on the power wires and kill everything for 1000 feet. EN61000-4 and EN61000-5 describe two tests of this type that apply to equipment tied to the power grid.

There are also the usual questions you ask a new supplier: how long have you been in this business, what's your range of products, what is the production volume, where do you do the manufacturing, can I see the production facility, etc. Granted, the bigger the potential sales, the more cooperation you get with these answers.

Steve K.

[Ken_McE]

I was just wondering if you all had any specific questions I should ask him.

Details of warranty.

[ryguy24000]

A question for the LED expert!
O.K. So If we decide to ditch the Metal Halide and go with your LED setup how much will it cost us and how long will it take to get our money back in savings? Because LED are so much more efficient per watt than MH? Right?

[AaronG]

the LED products that are being sold today aren't as capable as what we'd expect from the current crop of LEDs available.

I also find that contract electricians(and tradesmen in general) stick to what they only think will work and refuse to adapt or move forward to newer products and technology. So, if you're not happy with the options that your outdoor lighting contractor gave you, go get estimates from their competitors.


Depending on the type of business, the cheapest option is not always the best option.

I agree with your first statement and your last. As an electrician I fail to see where you get your ideas about "tradesman in general" "refusing to adapt". I was one of the ones suggesting a relamp because the cost of LED fixtures that would even compare never mind outshine the metal halides would be extremely expensive to the point where the switch would never make sense. Also it's great to have new tech but expensive experiments aren't fun when it's your money.

I have recommended certain LED lights for quite a few installations ( usually where government grants are paying a good portion and replacing incans) but I only recommend products that I've seen and researched. LED stuff for the most part isn't that much more efficient and the life span is shorter than you think in many cases. Also dirty power can pose a significant risk.

If you really like LED stuff you could always do the relamp (approx $20 a lamp plus a bucket truck for a few hours) then add the LED lights in addition to fill your holes.

I'm not at all against LED fixed lighting and I've installed quite a few LED pot lights/wall lights but I've yet to see large scale LED stuff that makes any sense to install. ( I'm the first one to check out any thing new that comes out at the whole saler or when the sales reps come by)

[ryguy24000]

+1 Aaron I'm guessing you are here on CPF helps in your job. Helping you to move forward and explore new technology. I have noticed quite a few electricians on CPF including my previous boss.

[brickbat]

... Because LED are so much more efficient per watt than MH? Right?

Some are, some aren't. So this question is impossible to answer without details on the exact fixtures you have in mind...

[brickbat]

grr. duplicate

[idleprocess]

I'm not at all against LED fixed lighting and I've installed quite a few LED pot lights/wall lights but I've yet to see large scale LED stuff that makes any sense to install. ( I'm the first one to check out any thing new that comes out at the whole saler or when the sales reps come by)

Curious if you're seeing LED shoehorned into existing MH/LPS/CFL applications where it's not likely to do well or if the overall quality of the fixtures are of low overall durability?

An example MH/etc application where I don't see LED doing so well - high-mount light standards or wall-mount floodlights where ~400w MH seems to be popular. It seems like shoehorning LED into those applications where they lack the thermal envelope to run sufficient power to get useful amounts of light on the ground is putting a heavy thumb on the scale towards failure. More fixtures, lower to the ground seems to be the way to go with LED. For example: there's an intersection in the town adjacent to mine with some fairly early LED streetlights that appear to be mounted about 2-3x higher than intended, producing a fairly dim spread on the ground some ~30' below (newer LED's with considerably better lm/W might help fix that problem). 7-11's in the area have really good LED lighting outdoors (bay lighting in the canopy over the gas pumps, pole-mounted light standards, perimeter lighting around the building, and sign backlighting) ... a lot of it seems to be recognition of the lower overall flux-per-light source and mounting them at appropriate heights - ie the light standards seem to be about 15' high.

[AaronG]

Curious if you're seeing LED shoehorned into existing MH/LPS/CFL applications where it's not likely to do well or if the overall quality of the fixtures are of low overall durability?

An example MH/etc application where I don't see LED doing so well - high-mount light standards or wall-mount floodlights where ~400w MH seems to be popular. It seems like shoehorning LED into those applications where they lack the thermal envelope to run sufficient power to get useful amounts of light on the ground is putting a heavy thumb on the scale towards failure. More fixtures, lower to the ground seems to be the way to go with LED. For example: there's an intersection in the town adjacent to mine with some fairly early LED streetlights that appear to be mounted about 2-3x higher than intended, producing a fairly dim spread on the ground some ~30' below (newer LED's with considerably better lm/W might help fix that problem). 7-11's in the area have really good LED lighting outdoors (bay lighting in the canopy over the gas pumps, pole-mounted light standards, perimeter lighting around the building, and sign backlighting) ... a lot of it seems to be recognition of the lower overall flux-per-light source and mounting them at appropriate heights - ie the light standards seem to be about 15' high.

I definitely don't think LED retrofits into HID fixtures are a good idea because of the heat issue. Integrated is the only way to go in my opinion. There are extremely expensive LED fixtures that seem to be able to compare to 400W MH (although I don't know that the fixtures quoted by the OP would fit) I've actually seen quite a few LED products that I like just not in that kind of output. We've put in quite a few LED pot lights and outdoor wallpacks that work really well. I hope to get some 5" sylvania potlight trims when they come out (if I can swing the $35 rebate) Outdoors is actually a good place for LED stuff because if you need a heavy cast housing anyway it levels the playing field in cost compared to other types of lighting.

Chopping up the parking lot and adding a whole bunch of 15' high poles doesn't really seem like the best investment when you already have a working system though. A relamp is fairly inexpensive and in a couple years when it's time again LED fixtures will have improved significantly.

Also keep in mind most LED fixtures seem to be rated between 35000 and 50000 hours. For 12 hours a day thats roughly 8 - 11 years. At that time you will probably have to replace the entire fixture.

My advice would be do a relamp, get feedback from the electrician as to the condition of the fixtures (seized screws, flaking paint, failed gaskets, rusty ballast) Then you will have a good idea how soon you'll have to do a major replacement.

LED stuff is getting better every year and I believe that at some point it will probably be the go to product I'm just not sure we're there yet.


To the OP: Most manufacturers have info on there websites about specs of their lights. If you know the make and model of the lights in question we would have more info about the peticular products.

[idleprocess]

Chopping up the parking lot and adding a whole bunch of 15' high poles doesn't really seem like the best investment when you already have a working system though. A relamp is fairly inexpensive and in a couple years when it's time again LED fixtures will have improved significantly.

I was not suggesting that for this case - would be well out of the apparent project scope & budget - just mentioning a particular scenario where I have seen LED fixtures work well.

My advice would be do a relamp, get feedback from the electrician as to the condition of the fixtures (seized screws, flaking paint, failed gaskets, rusty ballast) Then you will have a good idea how soon you'll have to do a major replacement.

Sounds like the sensible option given that lamps are the inexpensive wear item in that system.

[SemiMan]

I once read a Wikipedia page post that said "This page deleted thereby greatly increasing it's accuracy". That is how I feel about much of this topic. There were some good comments, but mostly crap unfortunately. Best comments were to replace the MH bulbs with new ones and do it regularly, i.e 2-3 years.

1) MH decay fairly quick. If these are newer fixtures, they will have pulse start ballasts. After 3 years, they will be below 70% of their original output. If they are not pulse start, they could be below 60%. They could be as high as 80% too with pulse start and good bulbs.

2) You don't "guess" as to which LED will replace what metal halide and any person who tells you that one given LED fixture will replace another given metal halide fixture should be kicked out of the door and never allowed to return!

3) On that not guessing thing, DON'T! That is what lighting analysis software is for. Virtually any light designed for a parking lot application has a readily available IES file. Those files, the pole locations and the mounting heights and angle of the light are put into a lighting program and one can tell very accurately what the result will be. No guessing, just proper engineering. NEVER EVER replace a fixture with another without doing a lighting study. There is absolutely no reason to do it.

4) A good LED fixture is good for 50,000 hours. You may need to wash it every once in a while, but you may get 12+ years out of it. The MH will be relamped every 3 years, this is where the cost comes in.

5) In a well designed lighting system for a parking lot, it is not unusual for an LED implementation using current technology to use 30-50% less power than the metal halide implementation. This does not mean the LED fixtures are 30-50% more efficient, because they probably are not. However, they are usually able to deliver more even illumination. Parking lot lighting is generally designed such that no spot is below a particular light level. With LED fixtures, the highest peak may only be 2-4 times the minimum. With MH fixtures, the peak could be 10 or more times the minimum. That increases the power usage quite a bit.

6) When the lighting study is done, ensure a realistic lumen maintenance figure is used. For pulse start metal halide where you plan and actually do replace the bulbs every three years, then 0.7 may be a reasonable figure. For the LED fixtures, that will be replaced after 50,000 hours, that figures may be 0.6 or lower.... why 0.6? 0.7 for lumen maintenance * 0.9 for dirt, * x for variance.


You may have to pay an engineer to do a lighting analysis, but it is worth the money in order to not have a bad experience ..... like the dotted line lighting of induction flourescents that dot a street near my house that someone did not do their paper work on!

Semiman