Non Rechargeable Lithiums

[JerryM]

Do lithium batteries give significantly longer run times than alkalines or eneloops? At their cost it would not be cost effective to use them unless you were away from your charger and eneloops. I am thinking of AAA and AA.
Probably 10 years or so ago I bought a few non rechargeable lithium batteries to use in a walkie talkie ham radio. I could not determine that they lasted longer than regular alkalines.
Thanks,
Jerry

[mvyrmnd]

In a high-current device, they will certainly last longer.

Alkaline cells fall apart once you start to suck the juice out of them.

[JerryM]

Thanks, but I am not sure what lights are high current. For example I was told that the Fenix E1 gets significantly longer run times with lithium batteries. However, I cannot find any tests that indicate that. I am not thinking so much about high power lights, but EDC lights like the Fenix LD01 or the Quark mini AA.
I should have been more specific.
Thanks again,
Jerry

[JerryM]

Deleted

[pabcor]

Yes, Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA or AAA, for example, are more power and durable with flahlights. I tested.
http://www.ebay.es/itm/Energizer-Ult...item6b1ac94195

[jasonck08]

Do lithium batteries give significantly longer run times than alkalines or eneloops? At their cost it would not be cost effective to use them unless you were away from your charger and eneloops. I am thinking of AAA and AA.
Probably 10 years or so ago I bought a few non rechargeable lithium batteries to use in a walkie talkie ham radio. I could not determine that they lasted longer than regular alkalines.
Thanks,
Jerry

Low drain devices, not much difference in capacity. Mid-high drain devices there is quite a big difference. 1A for example, a Lithium Primary AA provides about 3x as much energy.

The other advantage is cold weather performance is much improved.

Take a look at the energizer L91 data sheet: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf

[JerryM]

Thanks for the replies. I am going to order a package of AAA and see how the run times compare with eneloops.
Regards,
Jerry

[yellow]

I dont see the point.
When is any of us long enough away from main power, to really have a need for polluting?

eneloops --> rechargeable cells; to save cost for using any device (often)
Lithium primaries --> 1st of all reduction of weight (when/if that makes sense in the application), loooong storage time, better in cold temp.

I thought they would give looong runtime in low current devices

[cave dave]

If you look at almost any of Selfbuilts Reviews he tests with Energizer Lithium's, Eneloops and Alkalines and you can see the performance difference yourself in the graphs.
see: http://www.flashlightreviews.ca/

I actually run Eneloops in most lights but like to put Lithium's in rarely used emergency lights such as in the car where they can handle the temperature extremes, don't leak and are ready to go 10 years later. I also like to use Lithium's in low drain devices that are expensive and hard to replace where a leaking Alkaline would be a disaster. (Remote controls, outdoor thermostat).

In neither case is runtime a consideration.

[JerryM]

I dont see the point.
When is any of us long enough away from main power, to really have a need for polluting?

eneloops --> rechargeable cells; to save cost for using any device (often)
Lithium primaries --> 1st of all reduction of weight (when/if that makes sense in the application), loooong storage time, better in cold temp.

I thought they would give looong runtime in low current devices

Seldom are most of us away from our source of batteries and chargers. However, if one is to be on a long camping trip or tour he might very well need as much run time with a battery as he can get.
For example, I have a friend whose youngest daughter is a true mountain climber. She recently went with a Nat Geo team to Everest to get info on the trash left in the camps. She or they did not attempt to summit. She has climbed the highest mountains in S America.
Some of these trips take weeks, and weight is an important factor. I have asked her what lights are popular with her group, but haven't received an answer.

I was interested in run times of chain or pocket lights for long camping trips, and in case one were lost. I don't do that anymore, but have in my youth. So there are those and applications where long run times with batteries are very important.
Regards,
Jerry

[Robin24k]

If you are going to be using it frequently, you'll be better off with NiMH rechargeables because lithium primaries are quite expensive.

Here are a couple notable examples of lithium performance:

[JerryM]

Thanks, Robin.
I agree that lithiums would not be cost effective under most circumstances. I bought a 4 pk of AAA lithiums to see if the Fenix E01 would meet their run times. When I tested it with an eneloop battery it pretty well was finished in 6 hours and 42 minutes. The literature with the battery states 11 hours sun mode followed by 10 hours moon mode. I admit that I am not sure what these modes mean, but it would not last that long.
It was mentioned that lithium batteries would greatly increase the run time of the E01, so I am going to try it and see.

Years ago I bought some AA lithium batteries to use in a 2m/440 ham walkie talkie. I did not find that they added enough time to buy again.
Thanks again,
Jerry

[Robin24k]

For the E01, the specs are for alkaline batteries. Since the FL1 standard describes runtime until 10% initial output and it's a low-drain light, alkaline should have the best runtime. That's also why you didn't get much improvement in the radio...it's also low-drain application, which would be best served by alkaline batteries.

Lithium primaries are designed for best performance in high-drain applications, and in low-drain applications, you'll get equivalent or potentially worse performance. I would stick with alkalines or NiMH for the E01.

[JerryM]

Thanks again, Robin. That is very helpful.
The manufacturer's claims fall far short of the actual performance, but so do others. Obviously, if one is going to go on a long trip where the light will be used a lot it is wise to take extra batteries. Of course AAA batteries are cheap, and don't take up much room.

I wonder how they arrive at the run time figures? I suppose they could prove in the lab that the light does what they claim, but from my standpoint I am interested in what is useful.
Regards,
Jerry

[AnAppleSnail]

Thanks again, Robin. That is very helpful.
The manufacturer's claims fall far short of the actual performance, but so do others. Obviously, if one is going to go on a long trip where the light will be used a lot it is wise to take extra batteries. Of course AAA batteries are cheap, and don't take up much room.

I wonder how they arrive at the run time figures? I suppose they could prove in the lab that the light does what they claim, but from my standpoint I am interested in what is useful.
Regards,
Jerry

When we use words like "FL-1 standard" we have a reason to do so. The flashlight is tested in an integrating sphere with the batteries it is sold with, I'll return to this in a bit. Most flashlights are sold with something cheap like duracell Alkaleaks or something. These batteries are the best value in low-drain devices, like the E01. NiMHs have a great advantage in high-drain uses, but are weaker than alkaleaks in low-drain use. Lithium AAs beat Alkaleaks in high-current, and have more capacity than NiMHs in medium-current, but Alkaleaks are again the champion in low-current devices.

Test your E01 with the brand of alkaleak it came with, since that's what the standard tested with. The ANSI FL-1 standard means that the light was tested in an integrating sphere monitoring output. The light is turned on. At 3 minutes, 'output' is recorded in lumens. The test is continued until the light is at 10% of this value, and the runtime is recorded. I believe they do this with a few lights to get an average, but the line for the lab time is long.

Output at 3 minutes is a good 'real life' figure, since most lights dim down in the first minute due to thermal and battery quirks, but runtime to 10% output is not realistic. Many flashlight people consider batteries to be 'dead' at 50% output, since that's where the light is visibly 'much dimmer' to human eyes.

[JerryM]

Thank you very much. It might be helpful to folks like me to give the times and outputs at 50%, 75% and then when it reached less than 2 lumens. I am sure that is not going to happen, and also that the firefly mode of the Thrunite Ti is useful at times, but most of the time I want something close to the Arc AAA.
Regards,
Jerry

[Robin24k]

You'll be able to find that sort of information from a runtime graph, and as far as I know, Streamlight is the only one to publish graphs for all of their products. Perhaps you may be interested in the Streamlight Microstream (it's the last graph I posted above)?