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Thread: The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD lights

  1. #61
    Flashaholic* jumpstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    The main difference between the Haiku and PD light ( I have both the PDs and Mule PD) is the amount of time I save on maintenance. With the PD lights, there is always some sort of maintenance works that needs to be done such as relubing threads, cleaning the contacts, relubing the piston etc.. For the haiku, none. I cant really remember when was the last lube I put on the threads. In the Haiku the lube stays put. On the PDs, the lube gets everywhere. Alot of time saved. As for the 3 stage output, I now am loving it but not at first. The low on the PDs is the best IMHO, but the 3 levels on the haiku is very very useful indeed. Having seen that the McClicky is readily available and that the work involve in replacing a defect switch looks resonably easy, making the the haiku more and more desireable in my opinion. No flickering to report though.....
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  2. #62
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Mule and Haiku EDC'd together! WOW! I find I really only have room for one light. Ah well. But if I could EDC two comfortably, I'd go with SunDrop and Haiku! God, wouldn't it be awesome if you could have both those beams, at all three levels, in ONE light, with an easy to use UI? LOL! Sorry. Just dreaming!
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  3. #63
    *Flashaholic* nbp's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    Got a picture of that?
    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Mule and Haiku EDC'd together! WOW! I find I really only have room for one light. Ah well. But if I could EDC two comfortably, I'd go with SunDrop and Haiku! God, wouldn't it be awesome if you could have both those beams, at all three levels, in ONE light, with an easy to use UI? LOL! Sorry. Just dreaming!
    You just stick 'em both on your pocket, it's easy!


  4. #64
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by jumpstat View Post
    The main difference between the Haiku and PD light ( I have both the PDs and Mule PD) is the amount of time I save on maintenance. With the PD lights, there is always some sort of maintenance works that needs to be done such as relubing threads, cleaning the contacts, relubing the piston etc.. For the haiku, none. I cant really remember when was the last lube I put on the threads. In the Haiku the lube stays put. On the PDs, the lube gets everywhere. Alot of time saved.
    Who cares if lube gets smeared around inside the light? As long as the lube isn't leaking out and getting on the outside, it's still doing its job. The lube doesn't spread to places that aren't rubbing together, so anywhere the lube goes, it is needed.

  5. #65
    Flashaholic* kaichu dento's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    ...the Haiku and Mule pair always seem to end up clipped to my jeans together.
    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    You just stick 'em both on your pocket, it's easy!

    I think I've seen that picture before!

    When you said they were clipped together I imagined them clanging around on the end of a lanyard or chain!
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    Motion to sticky this thread for future reference by people who will inevitably ask if the PD will ever be made again. The PDs are great novelty lights nowadays, but from a purely functional standpoint, the Clicky lights are better.
    Some people just feel differently. Some of us plain don't like multi-level clickies. Not everyone is a round peg, some of us are square pegs and won't fit in the round hole no matter how hard you shove and/or shout at us that the round way is the better.

    Anyway, I've now realized that the battle is lost. I knew it in my heart already, but this thread being stickied in this forum is pretty much the stake in the PD's heart. I will stick to my A2s, LX2 and Kroma-switch-equipped 6P. They are much less elegant and less durable than PD system lights, but I guess I won't ever see such a light for sale again.

  7. #67
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by jellydonut View Post
    Some people just feel differently. Some of us plain don't like multi-level clickies. Not everyone is a round peg, some of us are square pegs and won't fit in the round hole no matter how hard you shove and/or shout at us that the round way is the better.

    Anyway, I've now realized that the battle is lost. I knew it in my heart already, but this thread being stickied in this forum is pretty much the stake in the PD's heart. I will stick to my A2s, LX2 and Kroma-switch-equipped 6P. They are much less elegant and less durable than PD system lights, but I guess I won't ever see such a light for sale again.
    jellydonut,

    This is maybe just a bit over-dramatic! I haven't noticed anyone shouting or shoving. On the contrary. In fact, as clearly outlined in the OP of this thread, I myself was pretty strongly against multi-level clickie lights before I experienced the Haiku, and I am STILL very strongly pro PD lights even now. And I would love it if Don did another wave of Ti-PD-S's. I definitely regret selling my Ti-PD-S, as I stated just a few posts ago. I would love to be able to own one again.

    Moreover, the reality that Don is not planning on ever making more Ti-PD's has been well known and clearly stated for a while now, certainly well before this thread was stickied. And, calling this a "battle" is also a mischaracterization! Don gets the first and last say, and every say in between. It's not like a bunch of us "clickie" people got together and forced Don to stop making PD lights, shoving and shouting down you out-dated PD people!

    Finally, if you want a PD light, there are a number of options. There are PD lights for sale right now as I type this, and not just on the custom ti b/s/t forum. Go buy one if that's what you want to own! More power to you! PD lights are AWESOME! I can totally understand why someone would prefer them to multi-level clickies. There's no need to polarize this issue.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    jellydonut,

    This is maybe just a bit over-dramatic! I haven't noticed anyone shouting or shoving. On the contrary. In fact, as clearly outlined in the OP of this thread, I myself was pretty strongly against multi-level clickie lights before I experienced the Haiku, and I am STILL very strongly pro PD lights even now. And I would love it if Don did another wave of Ti-PD-S's. I definitely regret selling my Ti-PD-S, as I stated just a few posts ago. I would love to be able to own one again.

    Moreover, the reality that Don is not planning on ever making more Ti-PD's has been well known and clearly stated for a while now, certainly well before this thread was stickied. And, calling this a "battle" is also a mischaracterization! Don gets the first and last say, and every say in between. It's not like a bunch of us "clickie" people got together and forced Don to stop making PD lights, shoving and shouting down you out-dated PD people!

    Finally, if you want a PD light, there are a number of options. There are PD lights for sale right now as I type this, and not just on the custom ti b/s/t forum. Go buy one if that's what you want to own! More power to you! PD lights are AWESOME! I can totally understand why someone would prefer them to multi-level clickies. There's no need to polarize this issue.
    It was just a play on words, a bit of a reference to earlier PD threads where those of us who tried in a civilized way to explain why we wanted PD lights were insulted and belittled for no good reason.

    Anyway, yes, I do want a PD light. I do not however have the funds to spend $750 on one, nor would I want to spend that amount if I had it.

    What I mean is that I want someone to make them, because the scarcity of the old PD lights plus the demand for them means we're stuck paying nearly a thousand dollars (as the price is constantly going up because of more demand and a dwindling supply) for a light with an emitter from 2004/5.

    New PD lights would be equipped with XP-G's, XP-C's or even XM-L's, and be much cheaper than the collectible ones presently available.

    Telling someone to buy a used light with an old emitter for $700-800 instead of a new light with a new emitter for $200-300 is not reasonable. I hope you can see that.

    Anyway, I'm sorry for posting here. I'll stay out of this thread now.

  9. #69
    *Flashaholic* nbp's Avatar
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    Nitecore used the PD design under license from Don. Probably that's what js was referring to.

  10. #70
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    jellydonut,

    If Don did another run of Ti-PD with updated Cree emitters they would cost $450 each, or maybe even more. Certainly not $200-$300. If you're willing to spend $450, $700 or $750 just doesn't seem a whole lot different. And many Ti-PD's sold already have updated emitters, although I think the Seoul LED's in the Ti-PD-S's had great beams--not as good as my High CRI Haiku, but pretty darned nice none the same.

    But there were also aluminum PD lights made by Don and those also come up for sale here, many of them with already updated emitters, and for a lot less than their titanium cousins. You just have to keep stalking custom and mod b/s/t and you can pick one up.

    And yes, as nbp says, I was also thinking of the nitecore PD lights.

    And again, I don't recall anyone being "insulted" or "belittled" in the threads I have run across. Of course, maybe I just haven't seen the posts you're talking about. In any case, it's certainly not happened here in THIS thread, so still maybe not the best rhetoric to use. But, anyway, best of luck to you! Don't give up on trying to find a PD light in your price range! They are out there. So, keep looking and don't give up hope.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  11. #71
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by jellydonut View Post
    Some people just feel differently. Some of us plain don't like multi-level clickies. Not everyone is a round peg, some of us are square pegs and won't fit in the round hole no matter how hard you shove and/or shout at us that the round way is the better.

    Anyway, I've now realized that the battle is lost. I knew it in my heart already, but this thread being stickied in this forum is pretty much the stake in the PD's heart. I will stick to my A2s, LX2 and Kroma-switch-equipped 6P. They are much less elegant and less durable than PD system lights, but I guess I won't ever see such a light for sale again.
    The "battle" was lost the moment the guy who makes the lights said he didn't want to make PDs anymore. I motioned for the thread to be stickied because it explains well the reasons why the guy who makes the lights doesn't want to make PDs anymore. This has nothing to do with my personal preference, or yours, only his.

  12. #72

    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    The "battle" was lost the moment the guy who makes the lights said he didn't want to make PDs anymore. I motioned for the thread to be stickied because it explains well the reasons why the guy who makes the lights doesn't want to make PDs anymore. This has nothing to do with my personal preference, or yours, only his.
    Although my designs are simple and not too many components involved, I am only one person with finite time available and limited resources. When the McLux T was built it was done in a wave and the only project on the table. I continued with launching waves of the Ti PD and then later the Lunasols and these were processed in waves where they were one project essentially at a time and fixed in number.

    From a marketing standpoint, there is something to be said about launching a wave where interest and anticipation has been built up and a frenzy of sorts follows as the wave is launched. But I really don't like to do business this way where a potential user is faced with a snooze and lose proposition. As a consumer I resent the pressure and marketing ploy of "Better get one now while they are still available". I am sorry that there are those who would like to get a PD but they are no longer being offered. When I migrated into the McClickie 3S series of lights I wanted to both have more variety in terms of different heads and paks and LED's but also offer them in a form of standing wave where one was not compelled to decide and purchase in a short window of my choosing and in seeming competition with other would be buyers.

    In order to have a number of alternatives in an ongoing offering I am forced to place limits on what those alternatives are for hopefully obvious reasons. The more modular the system is the easier it is to expand upon as well as evolve in incremental changes as we move forward.

    For some reason or mistaken keyboard entry I just lost a bunch of comment I had composed but probably for the best.

    Let me try to put it simply and hopefully making sense. For me to offer a PD or more involved multiple versions of a contemporary line of PD's would require me to make a choice and one in conflict with what is currently being offered. Such a choice is one I don't think would be the right one for me to make at this present point in time.
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  13. #73
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    I think that js presented the pros and cons comparing the PDs to the 3s McClicky lights in a balanced way, sufficiently balanced in fact to make me question whether the title that he gave this thread is really appropriate!

    The virtual infallibility and indestructibility of the PD mechanism combined with the simplicity of traversing the 2 levels in the same continuous momentary-on pushing or permanent-on twisting motion cannot and should not be underestimated.

    I grant that 2 levels are not as versatile as 3, but if I was using the Haiku, I'd be employing either the lower or the higher level the majority of the time and seldomly the medium level.

    The satisfaction derived from possession of an object with beautiful aesthetics is a completely different ball game on the other hand.

    That solid Titanium piston button with the tritium in the centre slot just inspires a feeling of instant, strong attraction as opposed to the tail of the McClicky bodies, which to my mind looks somewhat unfinished and far less refined.

    The concept of having the battery compartment doubling up as a solid switch to be depressed is one which I admire immensely because it is really thinking outside the box. The PD lights are refreshingly unusual as a result and a joy to own.
    Last edited by easilyled; 04-05-2012 at 02:58 PM.
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  14. #74
    Flashaholic* pjandyho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Don, what I would love to see is a PD Ti light that has a UI like this,

    From off,
    1) click once for low output,
    2) press and hold for high from off,
    3) double click for instant high output.

    When on,
    1) press and hold for momentary high from low,
    2) click on/off again to cycle between low and high output.

    That's all that I need. I think this would probably require an electronic type switch which could still be done with a PD design. Is this a feasible idea for a new light?
    The love of light is the reason why I don't walk in darkness. But darkness has it's beauty...Sadly, my lights are much more beautiful!!
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    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Don,

    I for one really love the "standing wave" type offerings vs. the very short lived waves of the past Ti-PD's and LunaSols. I suspect that there are some here now who don't realize how nice this really is. I mean imagine waiting for weeks--WEEKS--or longer for a wave to come and then missing the 30 minute window. This is not an exaggeration either.

    It would be lovely if you COULD offer all that you currently offer AND do a couple waves per year of PD lights. But if I had to chose, I'd chose what you currently offer!
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  16. #76
    *Flashaholic* nbp's Avatar
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    Or just come up with a Ti switch cover with a trit slot that could be fitted onto the Haiku in place of the rubber boot so it looks like a PD.

    I would be perfectly content with that.

    Please?

  17. #77
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    ...imagine waiting for weeks--WEEKS--or longer for a wave to come and then missing the 30 minute window. This is not an exaggeration either.

    It would be lovely if you COULD offer all that you currently offer AND do a couple waves per year of PD lights. But if I had to chose, I'd chose what you currently offer!
    YES. +1

  18. #78
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by easilyled View Post
    The virtual infallibility and indestructibility of the PD mechanism combined with the simplicity of traversing the 2 levels in the same continuous momentary-on pushing or permanent-on twisting motion cannot and should not be underestimated.
    Since the definition of "virtual" is "not actual", I completely agree. The exposed parts of the PD mechanism are very easy to service but they also require service. The kilroy wire wears down over time, and sometimes the solder joints fatigue a bit, both of which change the "gap" between low and high modes; the electronic switching in the 3S lights is unaffected by mechanical age. Replacing the kilroy wire requires soldering skill; replacing a McClicky switch requires essentially no skill at all. The 3S lights also have no moving seals during operation, whereas the PD lights have two. I dislike having to disassemble the 3S light engine to get at the driver, but hey, at least replacement drivers are actually available, unlike the PD lights. The 3S design is more durable and serviceable from several perspectives, even if the bits that actually do the work are pre-packaged.
    Last edited by fyrstormer; 04-05-2012 at 10:17 PM.

  19. #79
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    Since the definition of "virtual" is "not actual", I completely agree. The exposed parts of the PD mechanism are very easy to service but they also require service. The kilroy wire wears down over time, and sometimes the solder joints fatigue a bit, both of which change the "gap" between low and high modes; the electronic switching in the 3S lights is unaffected by mechanical age. Replacing the kilroy wire requires soldering skill; replacing a McClicky switch requires essentially no skill at all. The 3S lights also have no moving seals during operation, whereas the PD lights have two. I dislike having to disassemble the 3S light engine to get at the driver, but hey, at least replacement drivers are actually available, unlike the PD lights. The 3S design is more durable and serviceable from several perspectives, even if the bits that actually do the work are pre-packaged.
    That is true.

    However, I was thinking more from a point of view of which light was likely to break down first,
    rather than which one is easier to service.

    In this respect, if I was outdoors with no replacement parts, I would feel more confident in the robust mechanical switching of the PD. I've had McClickys fail on me but never my PDs.
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    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Fair enough. The PD mechanism *is* easier to field-strip even if the parts are harder to replace. I've never had either one fail on me; I guess I've been lucky.

  21. #81
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    As much as I love the PD mechanism, I'm with fyrstormer on this one. The McClickie switch inside the C pak is VERY well protected. If you put a McClickie inside a SF LOTC to change it to a clicky, and you drop the light tail first, then you end up giving the switch a good whack. And, in the case of the SF A2 LOTC, this often damages the internals. I don't know how often a McClickie would get damaged in these conditions, but it certainly can't be good to get whacked right on the plunger! Inside the C pak, however, it is protected from anything but a direct poke with a small diameter rod or stick. So, kind of unlikely to accidentally happen. The McClickie switch has a very good record of reliability--on a par with the kilroy spring in use in the PD lights I would guess, although I could certainly be wrong.

    But, in any case, the McClickie is a sealed, no maintenance switch that will last pretty much indefinitely for most users. In my first post above I said "arguably less reliable switch" as a con of the 3S lights. But just because you can make the argument in theory doesn't mean that it turns out to be bourn out in practice. Further, the PD lights do need regular maintenance. They really do. They will take neglect and abuse for a while, but eventually it ends up impacting things. If the lube goes away on the o-rings and threads, you'll have wear there and a less smooth action. And, in my experience lube can and does get places where it is not wanted and needed, like on the contact "C" ring for the high level. And without lube, o-rings will wear down over time. If I were giving a light to a friend or family member who was not a geeky gadget flashaholic freak like myself, I would definitely opt for a Clickie pak light over a PD, and I would have a much higher confidence that it would continue to function as advertised, stay water tight, and be as usable as when first given to them. I mean, personally, I LOVE to maintain my lights. It gives me a just a little of that honeymoon feeling I got when first receiving and getting to know the light. But for many people (if not most people) maintenance is a pain or is out-of-sight-out-of-mind. For them, the C Pak is the best and most reliable choice.

    And, as far as heads go, the Haiku and SunDrops and LunaSol's--which all lack a bezel ring--are more durable and drop-resistant than the Ti-PD-S lights or any of the older PD lights with bezel rings. In the Haiku, the lens is sandwiched between two o-rings, which is ideal, and the front lip/edge of the head is integral with the rest of the head--it's one piece. Not so with the bezel-ring lights. The one side of the lens is against metal, which is less than great, and dropping the light head first can dent or deform the bezel ring and/or crack the lens. It's not likely to happen, of course! But it can happen, and this is the reason why Don went to the newer method of holding the lens in place that started with the LunaSol 20 (or before?).

    I don't know, I mean, I'm not trying to start a PD vs. clickie flame war here! I LOVE the PD lights! And I can understand why some people prefer them. Absolutely! But, I just feel strongly that calling the clickie switch lights "less reliable" needs to be put in perspective here: yes, in terms of a switching mechanism it is arguably less reliable, but in the context of a whole light, I feel pretty strongly that my Haiku is every bit as reliable as my LunaSol 20, if not more so.

    Despite the very minor artifact of the 3S regulation that has recently come to light, I am still 100 percent pro-3S regulator. It's a highly efficient, very sophisticated and high quality regulator using some very high end chips, with the very best switching scheme yet invented, as far as I can tell. Only a few weeks into owning my Haiku, I am now able to switch levels at more or less the speed of thought. OK. That's a small exaggeration. But it does feel that way! It's so quick and easy to switch levels! Seriously awesome and intuitive at this point after just a few weeks. I can switch to whatever level I want in less than a second! And this is NOT an exaggeration. If you haven't tried the 3S, you really owe it to yourself to do so.

    And keep in mind that I started out VERY skeptical about this whole smart-light micro-controlled 3S light THING. I was very much a PD guy. VERY much. And it's not that the PD has somehow suddenly gotten worse. And it's not that I wouldn't still LOVE it if Don were able to put out a new line of PD lights--I WOULD BUY ONE FOR SURE! But it's that the 3S is better. Overall, it's just better. In my personal opinion! YMMV! Again, not trying to start a flame war or say anything negative against the PD lights. Because I love them. I'm just trying to rave about the 3S lights. Because I love them a little bit more.

    FWIW. Take it or leave it!
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  22. #82
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    Or just come up with a Ti switch cover with a trit slot that could be fitted onto the Haiku in place of the rubber boot so it looks like a PD.

    I would be perfectly content with that.

    Please?
    nbp,

    I had this same thought when I first got my Haiku, but I don't think it can't be done, unfortunately. The plunger of the clickie switch has a very low spring force and so wouldn't be able to push back enough against a Titanium cap with o-ring seal to make it work out. If you just "glued" or somehow attached a Titanium cap to the silicon rubber boot that would also be problematic, not to mention the questionable aesthetics and action, because instead of bending in a small diameter spot of the center of the rubber boot you'd have to push in the entire titanium rigid cap, which in turn would have to bend all sorts of silicon rubber in the small space between it's outer edges and the inner edges of the body. This would be difficult and would completely swamp the feel of the piston and its position. Whereas, right now, the action is perfect with the combination of the silicon boot and the McClickie switch plunger.

    I'm only theorizing here, based on what I know about all this stuff, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. I'd be happy if Don thinks otherwise, and even happier if he ever found a way to make the back end of the clickie pack look like the back end of the PD pack, but I doubt that will ever happen. And that's OK! The Haiku still has a nice looking tail, really. It's just not as nice as a PD. But that's OK! The head is nicer, in my opinion. And the main body is also nicer. So overall, it's a win for my tastes. YMMV!
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  23. #83
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by pjandyho View Post
    Don, what I would love to see is a PD Ti light that has a UI like this,

    From off,
    1) click once for low output,
    2) press and hold for high from off,
    3) double click for instant high output.

    When on,
    1) press and hold for momentary high from low,
    2) click on/off again to cycle between low and high output.

    That's all that I need. I think this would probably require an electronic type switch which could still be done with a PD design. Is this a feasible idea for a new light?
    You know, when I first read this, my first thought was that this could have been lifted, almost word for word, from the Arc4 design thread. And, to my taste, while it may sound like a good idea at first, it just doesn't work out at all well in practice. It's far from intuitive and ends up being annoying and cumbersome.

    One can easily implement something like this. You just ask the designer to program this sort of stuff in. You can also add an "SOS" mode and a "Mary had a little lamb" mode and even a "programming" mode where people can configure the light to their tastes. And . . . And . . . And . . .

    And yet, it just ends up being a mess. Don could easily have done this or something like it. But if he had, I definitely wouldn't be here now, raving about the 3S lights. Just my two cents, FWIW.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  24. #84
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    One can easily implement something like this. You just ask the designer to program this sort of stuff in. You can also add an "SOS" mode and a "Mary had a little lamb" mode and even a "programming" mode where people can configure the light to their tastes. And . . . And . . . And . . .

    And yet, it just ends up being a mess. Don could easily have done this or something like it. But if he had, I definitely wouldn't be here now, raving about the 3S lights. Just my two cents, FWIW.
    +1

    100% completely agree with you!

    One of my all time pet peeves are these multi modes so prevalent today with totally useless modes. Not only that, but many of these modes can't be skipped, so you go through SOS or strobe or "zombie killing mode" (OK, I made up the last one ...), even if you just want "HI" or "LO". Most/all of these multi modes are completely non-intuitive, and unless you have a manual or somebody "shows" to you how it works, it is impossible to use right away/quickly. If you have to give a new user (specially non-flashaholic) a dissertation on a light before you give it to them, you already lost the usability of the light. NO light should be so complex that it needs an explanation to use it - if it does, it is a gimmicky thing, something to show/impress somebody, not a real light to actually "use" by yourself and others.

    Outstanding ergonomics is what I like most about Don's lights - not only the physical/mechanical design is outstanding and ergonomic, but the modes of operation are also easy/intuitive. I am (in the minority) in that I prefer the PD to the multi-level click, but even in the clicky model (3S McClickey), Don still follows the usability/ergonomic rule where clearly "less" and "simple" are much better than "more". It goes back to the old KISS principle

    I honestly feel that the usability/ergonomic of Don's creations contributes greatly to the well reserved following he has gained. Folks "know" the lights from Don work well, are simple to operate, and "feel" right.

    As an example of what I consider "perfect" ergonomics, my favorite and "keeper" McGizmo is my Ti Clickie Pack for PD heads, an XR19 Mule head, two-speed GDx2 driver, Don's own Nichi 083 Hi CRI LED - I LOVE this combo for in home/close range use (the other light is the LunaSol 20 which I no longer own):





    Will
    Please no PM/Visitor Msg's. Email for questions/Paypal: wquiles [at] gmail {dot} com. Please visit my new website.

  25. #85
    *Flashaholic* nbp's Avatar
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    Default

    js-

    You and I must be talking about two different Dons. I am talking about Don McLeish, of "McGizmo" fame. He's a flashlight wizard. If anyone can invent a Ti switch button for a flashlight, he can.


  26. #86
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Will,

    How did you know about "Zombie mode"? THAT ONE is absolutely a MUST HAVE! There are "KISS" UI's (Keep It Simple Stupid) and then there are KITUA (pronounced Kee-Too-Ahh = Keep The User Alive) UI's. When the Zombie Apocalypse occurs--and it will, my friends, it will, in our lifetimes--then the "Zombie Mode" will strobe the light at just the right frequencies and patterns to cause the zombie's brains to explode! Really, really, REALLY useful, I would think.

    Still, I thought that no one knew about the zombie mode?!? It's something I am working on in my spare time, and soon I hope to convince Don to add it as a special mode to his 3S lights. One can never be too careful when it comes to zombies, after all. Best to keep them at greater than arms length! Don't want to get bitten and infected! The ZM KITUA UI* is the answer!

    -Jim

    *Trade Mark 2012, Sexton Zombicide Enterprises / Corpse-Fire Flashlights LLC.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  27. #87
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    js-

    You and I must be talking about two different Dons. I am talking about Don McLeish, of "McGizmo" fame. He's a flashlight wizard. If anyone can invent a Ti switch button for a flashlight, he can.

    Ya canna break the laws of physics, captin!
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  28. #88
    Flashaholic* scout24's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    js- 5 extra points for the Trek reference...

  29. #89
    *Flashaholic* nbp's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Does not kuku make Ti switch covers for the V10R, which uses a mechanical forward clicky? I'm not so familiar with that light or the construction of the tail, but that was kinda what I was thinking.

    But, I digress, as this is far off topic. It was just an idea.

    Go Haiku!

  30. #90
    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    As much as I love the PD mechanism, I'm with fyrstormer on this one. The McClickie switch inside the C pak is VERY well protected. If you put a McClickie inside a SF LOTC to change it to a clicky, and you drop the light tail first, then you end up giving the switch a good whack. And, in the case of the SF A2 LOTC, this often damages the internals. I don't know how often a McClickie would get damaged in these conditions, but it certainly can't be good to get whacked right on the plunger! Inside the C pak, however, it is protected from anything but a direct poke with a small diameter rod or stick. So, kind of unlikely to accidentally happen. The McClickie switch has a very good record of reliability--on a par with the kilroy spring in use in the PD lights I would guess, although I could certainly be wrong.

    But, in any case, the McClickie is a sealed, no maintenance switch that will last pretty much indefinitely for most users. In my first post above I said "arguably less reliable switch" as a con of the 3S lights. But just because you can make the argument in theory doesn't mean that it turns out to be bourn out in practice. Further, the PD lights do need regular maintenance. They really do. They will take neglect and abuse for a while, but eventually it ends up impacting things. If the lube goes away on the o-rings and threads, you'll have wear there and a less smooth action. And, in my experience lube can and does get places where it is not wanted and needed, like on the contact "C" ring for the high level. And without lube, o-rings will wear down over time. If I were giving a light to a friend or family member who was not a geeky gadget flashaholic freak like myself, I would definitely opt for a Clickie pak light over a PD, and I would have a much higher confidence that it would continue to function as advertised, stay water tight, and be as usable as when first given to them. I mean, personally, I LOVE to maintain my lights. It gives me a just a little of that honeymoon feeling I got when first receiving and getting to know the light. But for many people (if not most people) maintenance is a pain or is out-of-sight-out-of-mind. For them, the C Pak is the best and most reliable choice.
    But it was borne out in practice for me. I have had 2 McClicky switches fail and have never had a PD fail.
    So I automatically have more failth in the PD mechanism from my own personal experience.



    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    And, as far as heads go, the Haiku and SunDrops and LunaSol's--which all lack a bezel ring--are more durable and drop-resistant than the Ti-PD-S lights or any of the older PD lights with bezel rings. In the Haiku, the lens is sandwiched between two o-rings, which is ideal, and the front lip/edge of the head is integral with the rest of the head--it's one piece. Not so with the bezel-ring lights. The one side of the lens is against metal, which is less than great, and dropping the light head first can dent or deform the bezel ring and/or crack the lens. It's not likely to happen, of course! But it can happen, and this is the reason why Don went to the newer method of holding the lens in place that started with the LunaSol 20 (or before?).
    I will agree that this means that the lens might be more likely to shatter in the PD system (although it can be replaced very easily if this happens) However, if this is a slight disadvantage vs the 3S system, then consider the following points:-

    1) If a drop occurs, it could easily result in the edge of the bezel of the Haiku/3S lights being permanently dented whereas the replaceable bezel-ring of the PD can just be replaced.

    2) Access to the reflector and lens (to remove dirt/dust or for replacement) is easier via the bezel-retaining ring of the PD lights. Trying to put back the lens sandwiched between the 2 o-rings is more fiddly and time consuming.

    3) The replacable bezel-rings allow for customization (with anodizing/coatings) or replacing with aftermarket bezel-rings with tritium vials. Not essential but an attractive option for many.



    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    And keep in mind that I started out VERY skeptical about this whole smart-light micro-controlled 3S light THING. I was very much a PD guy. VERY much. And it's not that the PD has somehow suddenly gotten worse. And it's not that I wouldn't still LOVE it if Don were able to put out a new line of PD lights--I WOULD BUY ONE FOR SURE! But it's that the 3S is better. Overall, it's just better. In my personal opinion! YMMV! Again, not trying to start a flame war or say anything negative against the PD lights. Because I love them. I'm just trying to rave about the 3S lights. Because I love them a little bit more.

    FWIW. Take it or leave it!
    Sorry, but I'm going to leave it. Your reasoning has not changed my mind that the PD lights were the pinnacle of McGizmo's achievements.
    Last edited by easilyled; 04-09-2012 at 06:35 AM.
    Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine

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