The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD lights

[fyrstormer]

Sup dawg. I heard you like haikus, so I made a haiku from Haikus so you can etc...

[nbp]

Sup dawg. I heard you like haikus, so I made a haiku from Haikus so you can etc...

Sweeeet.

What are we looking at there as far as guts?

[fyrstormer]

4.2V Haiku XR-E
8.4V Haiku XP-G
4.2V Haiku SSC-P4 Hi-CRI

I've since sold the 8.4V Haiku XP-G.

[1313]

Can the 3S driver be upgraded like the one in the pd can for a power boost?

[fyrstormer]

In theory yes, but it's probably easier to build a whole new modular light engine.

[js]

I'm not going to apologize for apologizing, nor for being nice, nor for correcting what I saw as a clear error in my language. If you don't like it, then screw you and the horse you rode in on.

Back to PD vs. 3S, I have to say that the longer I use the 3S, the less interest I have in my LS20. I'm being converted!!! What a thing! But really . . . it's just . . . strange. I just really do find the 3S to be so much more convenient to use. In the first couple weeks, I would occasionally switch back to my LS20 and after 5 or 10 minutes I would get back into it, and be like "yeah, yeah, it's really nice." And I EDC'd it several times between when I got the Haiku and now. But then, after more time, and after using the Haiku more and more, I just realized that short of losing my Haiku and needing a "backup" McGizmo, the LunaSol just wasn't going to see any use. I didn't like the thought of it sitting in a drawer, so, despite the advice I gave myself and others above, I decided to sell my LunaSol.

I also realized something about the Haiku, and it clicked with something that Don mentioned to me--something about deep reflectors and managing the beam via the angle of incidence (???) I think that was it. Pipe up here Don if you know what I'm talking about. But the point is that while there IS a definite "hot spot" in the High CRI Haiku beam, there is also this lovely spill zone which has, relatively speaking, more spill and a more even spill, especially up close, than other lights I've owned (like the Ti-PD-S), especially incans focused for throw (like the M6). So THIS is another reason why I find I don't need the low flood beam--because the low beam of the High CRI Haiku has a great flood zone, so it isn't just a small spot of light.

And, AHHHHHHH, what a beam! What a quality of light! I just LOVE this Nichia 119 (and, of course, the 083). I've been waiting for LED's like these for almost a decade. And, here they ARE! It's very exciting! I . . . am . . . LOVING it!

[Darien]

Hi guys,
For starters, _JS_, thanks for your time and thoughts in this thread.

As suggested/ requested I am making this thread a sticky so feel free to link to other related threads.

I would like to add some comments and thoughts regarding the 3S McClickie series VS the PD lights with a bit of historical and design background if I can get to it and include it.

My very first light from scratch was a flood light based roughly on the ARC LS but with three differences all significant to my wishes; flood, pocket clip and clickie switch. My first production light design which was a collaboration in production with other CPF members, the Skunk Lights Gang, was the McLux and it was a revision of the earlier light but in compliance with the geometry as established by the SureFire "E" series. There is a lot to be said for modularity and the ability to assemble various components as best suits the individual. I spent a lot of time modifying SF lights and became familiar with their geometry. The McLux used a Kroll clickie switch which although far from perfect was at least readily available and for the most part viable. I gave PK so much grief about including a clickie switch in the SF E series offering that he took to calling me McClickie which ultimately became a source of some irony to me.

After playing more with SF mods as well as a fair amount of time playing with the Pelican M6 platform the desire for a 2 stage E series tailcap became my focus and as a result I came up with what I think was one of my best design solutions to date, the McE2S switch. (As an aside I had given up on a clickie module for the E-series tail caps after looking into the tooling costs). Also in the works at the time of the McE2S was the Aleph series of lights which really leveraged the open platform of E series compatibility and I was certainly not alone in the CPF community in designing and building modules and components and championing this modular group.

At some point along the way I was informed that my McE2S was likely an infringement on the SF 2 stage tail cap and I heeded this information by attempting to come up with some other means of similar 2 stage UI but completely different in mechanics and removed from the tail cap (I felt my McE2S was significantly different in design to the SF 2 level tail cap but it was a 2 level tail cap and the idea of using a resistor to give the two stages was certainly also a credit to SF). As a result of this new design goal, the PD was born. There was good news/ bad news in regards to the PD and it was the same news; the PD was not E-series compatible. I won't get into the good news part beyond recognizing some merit inherent in being original for its own sake.

Before going any further I want and need to give Wayne Yamaguchi credit and express my appreciation for his involvement and expertise in these developments. If it weren't for his brilliance and willingness to put up with me and come up with the magic in electronics, the earlier lights and certainly the PD series would never have happened.

Back to the PD series.... At the time the LED's were delivering enough flux to easily justify two levels of output and looking to the future it seemed that in time three levels would be justified. Also to be considered was not just the amount of light being delivered but its distribution as well. I remember thinking a good use of a two speed light might be a low and wide beam coupled with a high and long beam and the LunaSol version of the PD came to be. (I should also at least mention that during this time I had made the transition from aluminum to titanium but that is another story in itself)

I remember thinking that 100 lumens was the magic number which when reached, a serious effort should be given to a three level light. I want to mention that my reflector design had also evolved along the way where I felt I was getting better at a beam distribution that was a fair compromise between flood and throw and viable at both low and higher levels of flux. It was becoming time for a three speed light and based on a lot of bench testing and prototyping, time for a new UI. When the realization that a clickie switch would be a component in this new design I immediately opted to come back into the fold of the "E" series platform even though I was aware of some inherent shortcomings inherent in the design. Perhaps shortcoming is too strong a term, let me change that to compromise.

The subject line states that the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights and although this is a subjective statement, it is one I am mostly in agreement with and certainly the reality is that I have moved away from the PD and into the 3S UI with my offerings reflecting this move.

I offer this history not because anyone will find it of interest to speak of but as reason and hopefully justification as to where I am with my offerings and how this came to be. It is much easier to look back than it is to actually go back and realistically since I am only one person I can't go back if I want to be going forward, at the same time. Some of you might think that I am resting on my previous designs and not moving forward and I can't deny there is truth here but I am not interested in bringing about change simply for the sake of change. My business plan and core values do not lend to a flashlight of the month club. If I offer something new or different it has to have value and merit in its own right.

I want to throw in one last side thought/ observation here. H3 vials. I really like the H3 vial in the piston tail of the PD lights but I have also come to realize that they will ultimately fade long before their titanium host fails to serve. Granted I will be long gone before this and it is possible to replace them but not easily or doable by many who have one of these lights. The seals, clickie switch and even the Light Engine itself might be viewed in some time line as normal wear or replaceable items and with the present 3S series of lights these components can be reasonably replaced by the user. I find myself thinking a lot these days about durability and sustainability and that influences my designs and ideas. In a final contrast to the PD, the Lunasol was the latest iteration of the PD and candidly it was the most challenging design as well as assembly I came up with and a PITA to put together. The host of the PD light will outlive its internals and replacement of these internals is not trivial. I feel bad about that. Maybe I shouldn't but it does influence my thoughts and directions in going forward.

Man, I haven't taken a dump on the forum like this in a long time!

The whole final paragraph but most importantly for me is the last three sentences; rare these days, and what I like to hear from a design standpoint and why I now need to own and carry a McGizmo flashlight. Thanks, Don! I should have been keeping up long ago. Can't wait to carry her. Bring it on!

[nbp]

Let it ride, Don.

Who knew he had a youtube channel? More flashlight movies please!

[127.0.0.1]

thanks for sorting all this out for me so I don't have to

Just ordered a Haiku and that is that.

[nbp]

Allow me to mount my high horse for a moment.

I just scrolled through the flashlight reviews section and I was amazed to find that of the first 90 threads or so, I only knew anything about like 5 of the lights mentioned, and I didn't own any of them. Bronte, Skilhunt, Rofis, Xstar, Niwalker? Seriously? Where the heck do all these goofy lights come from? Who buys them all?

And while the reviews are very well done and professional and contain lots of data, none are as passionate and connected as something like this fine review from js. All those silly lights lack everything that makes something like a McGizmo so special. I am happy to have found an EDC light that is so right for me. Saves me so much time reading about hokey mass produced disposable lights and money wasted on them.

Rock on Don, keep making sweet lights that make other lights inconsequential and rock on my Haiku carrying brothers and sisters.

[Fatboy00]

I just recieved my first Mcgizmo Haiku and absolutley love this thing it is super sweet. I will be purchasing a PD soon. I really want to be able to have both in hand while reading the reviews so I can learn more about these lights.

[Benchiew]

I fully agree that the 3s has surpassed the PD era.

[kaichu dento]

I just received my first McGizmo Haiku and absolutely love this thing it is super sweet. I will be purchasing a PD soon. I really want to be able to have both in hand while reading the reviews so I can learn more about these lights.

I fully agree that the 3s has surpassed the PD era.

The LS20 and LS27 are the deal breakers when it comes to superiority, although it still boils down to personal preference. I can't wait to get my LS20 modded, hopefully for three levels of flood and 5 for throw.

[jamesmtl514]

I had the chance of owning 2 LS20 lights. While pretty neat, i didn't find they did a great job in either task, flood and throw.
I found the emitter outdated and too cool. Also not bright enough for most tasks.

The styling was just ok. It looks better in photos than in person imo.

I have also owned 2 sundrops. I didn't like the beam pattern.
3 mules later, I've found the one i really like. Beadblasted warm 119. 3S.

The only thing that would make this better was if it has a warm xml on a flupic board and the mclickypak was bored to accept 18350 cells

[arewethereyetdad]

I had the chance of owning 2 LS20 lights. While pretty neat, i didn't find they did a great job in either task, flood and throw.
I found the emitter outdated and too cool. Also not bright enough for most tasks.

The styling was just ok. It looks better in photos than in person imo.

To each his own. Sorry to be a dissenting vote, but there is no better light, overall, than the LS20. And if Don would do another run, perhaps with updated LEDs, it would sell out in minutes. I'll take the PD concept over the 3S concept every time. But, of course, they're all McGizmos. How can you go wrong? It's like choosing one day to drive the Ferrari and the next day to drive the Lamborghini.

[Benchiew]

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I can't wait to get my LS20 modded...for three levels of flood and 5 for throw.

Having tried the three level flood idea with DaFab on my LS20, I would humbly suggest this will not happen. Getting a multimode driver into the LS20's low level circuit (kilroy only)...while maintaining long term viability...is tough. And just so you know, DaFab got three levels on flood on mine, but was unhappy overall with the workings, and he dropped the idea. This was after several months of prototyping. Think very specifically about how the PD works, and what physically needs to happen for two multilevel drivers to work.

So this, while a sought after configuration, is not as easily achievable as one might think.

Still, if you can do it...or find a way that someone can...more power to you.

DaFab's tribute to Don's original prototype LS20 (my LS20, and that of Stoli's) are still kings of modded LS20's IMHO. It is just too well done to be fair. It is just so nice to have four levels, all accessible via the button or twist.

obi

[kaichu dento]

I had the chance of owning 2 LS20 lights. While pretty neat, i didn't find they did a great job in either task, flood and throw.
I found the emitter outdated and too cool. Also not bright enough for most tasks.

The styling was just ok. It looks better in photos than in person imo.

Yeah, they're pretty neat, and still quite viable as two level solution with two completely different beam patterns. One thing I can say about anyone owning an LS10 is that they will know exactly what they can and can't use the light for.
I'm a little surprised that you'd even mention the emitter, since everyone here also knows about aftermarket emitters and how easy they are to come by. The LS20 is not married to the emitter and the usefulness to anyone able to afford one will not be any less, although I (as a warm tint fan) don't find the tint on either the flood or throw to be overly cool, and very balanced too.

To each his own. Sorry to be a dissenting vote, but there is no better light, overall, than the LS20. And if Don would do another run, perhaps with updated LEDs, it would sell out in minutes. I'll take the PD concept over the 3S concept every time. But, of course, they're all McGizmos. How can you go wrong? It's like choosing one day to drive the Ferrari and the next day to drive the Lamborghini.

You bet an updated run of LS20 would sell out in less time than it takes to notify everyone about it.
Can't say which I'll carry more until it comes back, but for the present I still prefer my 3S, but will probably jump ship to the LS20 after it gets back in my hands again.

Having tried the three level flood idea with DaFab on my LS20, I would humbly suggest this will not happen. Getting a multimode driver into the LS20's low level circuit (kilroy only)...while maintaining long term viability...is tough. And just so you know, DaFab got three levels on flood on mine, but was unhappy overall with the workings, and he dropped the idea. This was after several months of prototyping. Think very specifically about how the PD works, and what physically needs to happen for two multilevel drivers to work.

So this, while a sought after configuration, is not as easily achievable as one might think.

Still, if you can do it...or find a way that someone can...more power to you.

DaFab's tribute to Don's original prototype LS20 (my LS20, and that of Stoli's) are still kings of modded LS20's IMHO. It is just too well done to be fair. It is just so nice to have four levels, all accessible via the button or twist.

obi

Great food for thought there, and my only thought on the process was that I would ask to see if anyone could do it, and if not, then that's fine too. But if someone could make it work properly, I'd love to have it.

[nbp]

I recently had the chance to play with KD's LS20, the first I've ever physically seen. It is a stone cold stunner, and is a marvel of design and ingenuity. Of, course there is nothing else out there quite like Don's PD lights. Also, the dual option of flood and throw emitters is outstanding, with both being very nice beams. I am grateful to have had the chance to see and use it in person.

That being said, I don't think the PD system is as good for EDC, for me, as the Haiku's McClicky and 3S driver. The ease of momentary on (without Herculean thumbs) and quick one handed mode changes makes it a no brainer for me.

I can appreciate two stage progressive twisties - I have 4 Muyshondts and carry them often when I need something smallish, and my Mako is a constant backup companion. But in a primary EDC, this twisty is too cumbersome and labor intensive when compared to the ease of the clicky. I love the two stage press for momentary in either mode, but again, it's too hard to hold for more than a few seconds.

I'd be interested to try the LS20 with a Clicky Pak to see what that's like. I see little discussion of that combo but It seems good to me.

I wish I could remember all my thoughts on the PD light, but that's a few to get started anyways.

[LEDmodMan]

Hi guys,
For starters, _JS_, thanks for your time and thoughts in this thread.

As suggested/ requested I am making this thread a sticky so feel free to link to other related threads.

I would like to add some comments and thoughts regarding the 3S McClickie series VS the PD lights with a bit of historical and design background if I can get to it and include it.

My very first light from scratch was a flood light based roughly on the ARC LS but with three differences all significant to my wishes; flood, pocket clip and clickie switch. My first production light design which was a collaboration in production with other CPF members, the Skunk Lights Gang, was the McLux and it was a revision of the earlier light but in compliance with the geometry as established by the SureFire "E" series. There is a lot to be said for modularity and the ability to assemble various components as best suits the individual. I spent a lot of time modifying SF lights and became familiar with their geometry. The McLux used a Kroll clickie switch which although far from perfect was at least readily available and for the most part viable. I gave PK so much grief about including a clickie switch in the SF E series offering that he took to calling me McClickie which ultimately became a source of some irony to me.

After playing more with SF mods as well as a fair amount of time playing with the Pelican M6 platform the desire for a 2 stage E series tailcap became my focus and as a result I came up with what I think was one of my best design solutions to date, the McE2S switch. (As an aside I had given up on a clickie module for the E-series tail caps after looking into the tooling costs). Also in the works at the time of the McE2S was the Aleph series of lights which really leveraged the open platform of E series compatibility and I was certainly not alone in the CPF community in designing and building modules and components and championing this modular group.

At some point along the way I was informed that my McE2S was likely an infringement on the SF 2 stage tail cap and I heeded this information by attempting to come up with some other means of similar 2 stage UI but completely different in mechanics and removed from the tail cap (I felt my McE2S was significantly different in design to the SF 2 level tail cap but it was a 2 level tail cap and the idea of using a resistor to give the two stages was certainly also a credit to SF). As a result of this new design goal, the PD was born. There was good news/ bad news in regards to the PD and it was the same news; the PD was not E-series compatible. I won't get into the good news part beyond recognizing some merit inherent in being original for its own sake.

Before going any further I want and need to give Wayne Yamaguchi credit and express my appreciation for his involvement and expertise in these developments. If it weren't for his brilliance and willingness to put up with me and come up with the magic in electronics, the earlier lights and certainly the PD series would never have happened.

Back to the PD series.... At the time the LED's were delivering enough flux to easily justify two levels of output and looking to the future it seemed that in time three levels would be justified. Also to be considered was not just the amount of light being delivered but its distribution as well. I remember thinking a good use of a two speed light might be a low and wide beam coupled with a high and long beam and the LunaSol version of the PD came to be. (I should also at least mention that during this time I had made the transition from aluminum to titanium but that is another story in itself)

I remember thinking that 100 lumens was the magic number which when reached, a serious effort should be given to a three level light. I want to mention that my reflector design had also evolved along the way where I felt I was getting better at a beam distribution that was a fair compromise between flood and throw and viable at both low and higher levels of flux. It was becoming time for a three speed light and based on a lot of bench testing and prototyping, time for a new UI. When the realization that a clickie switch would be a component in this new design I immediately opted to come back into the fold of the "E" series platform even though I was aware of some inherent shortcomings inherent in the design. Perhaps shortcoming is too strong a term, let me change that to compromise.

The subject line states that the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights and although this is a subjective statement, it is one I am mostly in agreement with and certainly the reality is that I have moved away from the PD and into the 3S UI with my offerings reflecting this move.

I offer this history not because anyone will find it of interest to speak of but as reason and hopefully justification as to where I am with my offerings and how this came to be. It is much easier to look back than it is to actually go back and realistically since I am only one person I can't go back if I want to be going forward, at the same time. Some of you might think that I am resting on my previous designs and not moving forward and I can't deny there is truth here but I am not interested in bringing about change simply for the sake of change. My business plan and core values do not lend to a flashlight of the month club. If I offer something new or different it has to have value and merit in its own right.

I want to throw in one last side thought/ observation here. H3 vials. I really like the H3 vial in the piston tail of the PD lights but I have also come to realize that they will ultimately fade long before their titanium host fails to serve. Granted I will be long gone before this and it is possible to replace them but not easily or doable by many who have one of these lights. The seals, clickie switch and even the Light Engine itself might be viewed in some time line as normal wear or replaceable items and with the present 3S series of lights these components can be reasonably replaced by the user. I find myself thinking a lot these days about durability and sustainability and that influences my designs and ideas. In a final contrast to the PD, the Lunasol was the latest iteration of the PD and candidly it was the most challenging design as well as assembly I came up with and a PITA to put together. The host of the PD light will outlive its internals and replacement of these internals is not trivial. I feel bad about that. Maybe I shouldn't but it does influence my thoughts and directions in going forward.

Man, I haven't taken a dump on the forum like this in a long time!

Wow, what a post to stumble upon quite accidentally. Reading Don's "dump", it sure is a blast from the past to remember the "early days" of high-power LEDs around here. I really can't believe it has been almost 10 years ago now. However, with as much as has changed here on the forums, it is good to still see some of the old faces, and I'm glad that Don didn't throw in the towel.

Hi Don! Hi Jim!

Drive-by posting!!!

[kaichu dento]

That was a welcome read, and I haven't seen it since long before I got my LS20 and started carrying a Haiku on a regular basis either!

[Benchiew]

I look forward to future evolutions of Don's lights.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I'd be interested to try the LS20 with a Clicky Pak to see what that's like. I see little discussion of that combo but It seems good to me.

It is actually odd to me. For my LS20, it is useful for the three levels stuff, but....

But keep in mind--unlike with the PD--with the CPak, the momentary on only applies to what position the head is current in! If it is twisted off...you can't get it to come on with the button on the C Pack. Of course with the PD, you can.

Of course, you can also see it as a switch that can be locked out, and levels which are set by the head.

It works well for me as a single EDC (and even better paired with a PD mule), but I originally wanted three levels of flood and a single high level cannon on the reflector. Turns out the little reflector DaFab chose is great for getting a giant uniform spot. A real unique light in all it's forms.

obi