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Thread: Headlight for camping and astronomy

  1. #1

    Default Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Hi,

    Thanks to the great theads on this forum I bought a 4sevens quark AA turbo about a year ago and love it. I have been trying to find what headlight to buy but can't quite figure it out.

    My needs [wants].
    - The light will be mainly used for setting up camp, cooking, in tents etc in snow or at a normal camp site
    - priority is flood, not spot
    - a few brightness levels
    - weather resistant (snow / rain)
    - Run on AA preferably (same as the 4sevens so I don't have to take multiple types of spare battery), or AAA
    - batteries to be part of the light (no wires to a seperate battery pack)
    - budget, less than $60 would be nice... but I am flexible.

    Now for the hard bit. In astronomy, people are placed in shallow graves if they turn a white light on if there are some hard core astronomy people around. I need a light that does not toggle through white modes to get to the red and one that I am not likely to hit the wrong button and blind people with white light.

    My perfect light would have one set of switches for the red, and one set for the white. Or a red lense that can be installed with minimum effort (without taking the light off my head).

    The Petezel Tactikka XP looks close to what I need, but it looks like it is built for throw, then you toggle to red by sliding the filter across. If there is a flood version, then I think this would be pretty close to what I need. Anyone know of some others I should look at?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    I use a Zebralight H51f and just use it on low for astronomy but if I were around other amateur astronomers I would also take a red button cell keychain light (Photon) and wear it around my neck.

    If you want one of the 3AAA types then the BD Storm has a separate red mode and is floody.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Amateur astronomers are way too hung up about the red light thing. For people who are supposedly so into science they're a very superstitious and uninformed lot when it comes to lighting. I'm not just saying that either, my wife and I belong to our local astronomy club in California, and we participate in several events every year.

    That said, any light will preserve night vision provided it's low enough, yes, even a white light. All those astronomy people who b!tch and moan about using red lights are actually doing it wrong, because the vast majority of red lights are not a true deep red, in the 660 -670 nm range, but are instead red-orange in the 620 - 630 nm range. So those lights aren't really helping preserve their night vision all that much.

    To truly preserve scotopic vision, the simple rule of thumb is that if you can see the color, your light is too bright. That's because rods are colorblind, they can't see color at all. So if you can see that a red light is red, it's too bright and you are activating your cones and thus undoing your dark adaptation. The only advantage even a true deep red light will have is that the wavelength is usually far enough away from the wavelength that the rods are maximally sensitive to so that they're not stimulated very much.

    I don't know of a single headlamp on the market that is in the true deep red range; they're all red-orange. That said, the only handheld lights that I know of that are true deep red are made by Orion Systems. A quick Goo-fu session will find a few links for you to buy one.

    I personally use a pair of NVG Photon Freedom Micros. One on a clip on my hat, and the other on a cord around my neck. They come stock with 2x 2016's in them, but the one on my hat gets the most use, so I've put a single 2032 in it which cuts its brightness in half. I prefer them because I can't read at all with a pure red light, and when stargazing my wife is the scope operator and I just look things up on the charts, make snacks, etc. I'm far too ham-handed to use the scope very well. So the NVG lights work much better for me for that (for reasons about the function of the visual system I won't go into right now).
    Last edited by B0wz3r; 04-01-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Thanks for the comments thus far. Agree that astronomers can take it all a bit seriously, but I am just a noob in the astronomy scene so don't want to be the one to rock the boat!

    So now the shortlist is:

    Petezel Tactikka XP - not enough flood but meets other criteria

    Zebralight H51f - sounds great but is there a red lens? Maybe I can put some red celephane on it to keep the astronomy nazis at bay if going to a meet where there are the hard core scope people around. THis is the front runner

    BD Storm - Not a big fan of using 4 AAA as it means i have to take different types of batteries when camping, Functionality looks good.

    Any others that I should consider?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    I use the Zebralight H501r, which has an ultra-low that's so low you really can't tell if there's color in it or not, unless it reflects off something shiny.

    You'd think some mfgr would design the "must have" astronomy headlamp. A 1AAA with super low sublumen settings in either red or green. It would also have a "lockout" so that bright was not possible...so you could put it into "low only" mode, to avoid mistakes.
    Last edited by Bolster; 04-02-2012 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    There is no advantage to green. Sure the eyes are more attuned to green and it can therefore be used on a low setting but the same can be said for "white".

    The only reason for red (over a low white) would be at higher levels actually. The right red (dark red) can be used to activate the cones if you need to read or look at fine detail and then go back to a night adapted type of vision.

    The rods won't be affected. The cones will but they adapt much quicker than the rods.

    If you don't need to see fine detail then you really don't need anything other than low light of any kind.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Yes actually, there is. You can use an overall lower level of light to activate the parvocellular system which is tied in only to the cones, than you can with a red light. This allows you to preserve dark adaptation and achieve a light intensity at the mesopic level, the transition point between photopic and scotopic vision. This allows reading and acuity in lower overall levels of light than if using a red light, particularly a true deep red rather than one of the pseudo red-orange lights people typically use for 'night vision'.

    And no, cones do not adapt more quickly than rods. It takes a minimum of 20 minutes for cone adaptation to get from full photopic vision to the mesopic transition point, and usually another 10 to 20 more minutes after that for the cones to go fully inactive. Rods are tied into what's called the magnocellular ganglion system which is responsible for changes in brightness and motion and contributes to spatial perception and environmental localization. The magnocellular system and the rods respond much more quickly to even small changes in brightness than the cones do.

    Quote Originally Posted by gcbryan View Post
    There is no advantage to green. Sure the eyes are more attuned to green and it can therefore be used on a low setting but the same can be said for "white".

    The only reason for red (over a low white) would be at higher levels actually. The right red (dark red) can be used to activate the cones if you need to read or look at fine detail and then go back to a night adapted type of vision.

    The rods won't be affected. The cones will but they adapt much quicker than the rods.

    If you don't need to see fine detail then you really don't need anything other than low light of any kind.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    However, the point I was making is that green has no advantage over just a dim white light.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by B0wz3r View Post
    Yes actually, there is. You can use an overall lower level of light to activate the parvocellular system which is tied in only to the cones, than you can with a red light.
    The question that keeps coming up for me is, if this is true, why aren't more mfgrs jumping on this? Have we ever seen a NVG emitter from Zebralight, for example?

    Why do the mfgrs keep serving up orange-red? Do they not know this stuff?

    Maybe Bowz needs to consult for the headlamp industry.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolster View Post
    The question that keeps coming up for me is, if this is true, why aren't more mfgrs jumping on this? Have we ever seen a NVG emitter from Zebralight, for example?

    Why do the mfgrs keep serving up orange-red? Do they not know this stuff?

    Maybe Bowz needs to consult for the headlamp industry.
    My personal opinion is that it's something that's just so deeply entrenched in the public collective subconscious, that it's futile trying to re-educate people about it.

    If anyone wanted me to do consulting for a flashlight company, I'd be happy to do so! I work for very reasonable rates!

    I've actually had many interesting and productive discussions talking with GaAslamp about this... and issues about CRI and color temp as well. IIRC correctly he's an engineer and is very knowledgeable about the power spectra of various LED's on the market and similar issues. I had thought that the two of us could probably come up with some pretty cool products, but alas, they'd only be of interest to us flashaholics, and probably wouldn't be attractive to the general public, so we'd have a hard time attracting any investment capital. Not to mention we'd need someone who knows how to start a company, and all that...

    Honestly though, most of this info is out there, it just takes some work to round it all up and make sense of it. I just happen to have the advantage of having been through graduate school on some very closely related topics, and now teach classes on sensory perception and attention... If someone at a flashlight company was truly concerned about these issues, it'd probably just be cheaper for them to send one of their own engineers to a few extension classes at night than to hire someone like me. :P
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Hey if you were going to put a red filter over a Zebralight wouldn't you be better off with a High CRI model? There should be more red frequencies in the 85 CRI 4000K light than in the neutral or the regular.
    Unless I had both, I'd hate to be stuck with a red ZL, especially when camping becomes the focus.

    I love these threads that get into picking apart minutia of photo reception! I'm slowly absorbing it, slowly.
    I'd like to make a light for exploring dark adapted vision, I've seen the deep red leds available thanks to the growing market for led plant lights, and the teal/NVG leds are available as well. I'd like to compare this stuff first hand, having already confirmed that red renders up good detail in low light, I need to get just a little bit more scientific about it.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Well, there's many tens of thousands (or more?) amateur astronomers out there, and all of them buy lights they hope will preserve their night vision. Then you have the military, where life or death can depend on it. So it seems to me that some mfgr could grab the market and say, "with extensive research we have created the ultimate night vision preservation headlamp." I'd imagine there'd be a flock of people lined up to buy it. Including me.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Zebralight does make a few red headlamps if your set on red.
    http://www.zebralight.com/H51Fr-Floo...lamp_p_65.html

    I guess they are more red-orange according to above, but whatever...

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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    I think the OP has two quite separate requirements that would be best met by getting two different lights. My suggestions are:

    For camping: Zebralight H502 headlamp (these are supposed to be in pre-production at the moment and are planned to be on sale "soonish".

    For Astronomy: Photon Freedom Micro with red LED and covert nose.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregozedobe View Post
    I think the OP has two quite separate requirements that would be best met by getting two different lights. My suggestions are:

    For camping: Zebralight H502 headlamp (these are supposed to be in pre-production at the moment and are planned to be on sale "soonish".

    For Astronomy: Photon Freedom Micro with red LED and covert nose.
    I think the above is almost exactly where I am at. I am looking at the H51f and then getting a photon freedom mini. I just need to find a place that can sell both and ship to Australia. Any stores that you can suggest?

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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregozedobe View Post
    I think the OP has two quite separate requirements that would be best met by getting two different lights. My suggestions are:

    For camping: Zebralight H502 headlamp (these are supposed to be in pre-production at the moment and are planned to be on sale "soonish".

    For Astronomy: Photon Freedom Micro with red LED and covert nose.
    That's exactly what I do. I alternate between my H51w and my ST5-190nw for general camping/outdoor use, and my NVG photons for astronomy and star parties. People give me crap sometimes about the green, but I use them responsibly and tell them to ask me about it in the morning, and just ignore them after that if they won't shut up.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by dodgydd View Post
    Any stores that you can suggest?
    I usually buy my Zebralights directly from zebralight.com, and my PFM's from Batteryjunction.com

    Check for the total cost (including shipping costs) when buying overseas, as the shipping often makes a big difference to where I buy from. You may be better buying from two separate sellers, depending on price + shipping.

    I would recommend a H51 and some removeable diffuser lens material, as that way you can have the floody beam of the H51f most of the time, but if you do need more throw just peel off the diffuser film (it's not adhesive). I usually unscrew the tailcaps of my ZLs to prevent unintended switch on (but it depends on how you carry them as to whether that will be a problem for you).

    For the PFM make sure you get one with a "covert nose", this stops any annoying side glare. Do some reasearch on the UI of the PFM, it is very flexible, with low battery usage modes, auto switch off after 3 minutes and much, much more. Photon lights even havetheir own dedicated forum.
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregozedobe View Post
    I usually buy my Zebralights directly from zebralight.com, and my PFM's from Batteryjunction.com

    Check for the total cost (including shipping costs) when buying overseas, as the shipping often makes a big difference to where I buy from. You may be better buying from two separate sellers, depending on price + shipping.

    I would recommend a H51 and some removeable diffuser lens material, as that way you can have the floody beam of the H51f most of the time, but if you do need more throw just peel off the diffuser film (it's not adhesive). I usually unscrew the tailcaps of my ZLs to prevent unintended switch on (but it depends on how you carry them as to whether that will be a problem for you).

    For the PFM make sure you get one with a "covert nose", this stops any annoying side glare. Do some reasearch on the UI of the PFM, it is very flexible, with low battery usage modes, auto switch off after 3 minutes and much, much more. Photon lights even havetheir own dedicated forum.
    Some companies also mark up their shipping, so it's good to compare shipping rates. I personally avoid companies if I find they've marked up their shipping.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Picked up my H51f from the post office this morning. The UI is great, easy to use and in the work bathroom with light turned off at work it seems perfect for what I was after (close up work like cooking and setting up the tent while camping, in tents, etc). I am camping in a few weeks time so it will be great to test it then. Thanks for the advice.

    I think I might just try a DIY red cover and use it on low for astronomy. Understand the argument above that the wavelength may not be right etc, but at least I won't attract the attention of star party white light police.

    Now, for the new project, to build a red light system inside my scope eyepiece case to make it easier when swapping lenses... Maybe some cheap leds will do the job...

  20. #20

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    If you decide you don't like the light you bought, LRI also makes a version of the photon fusion headlamp that is only red (they also make one that is only blue but that won't work for you). It is a very excellent light for the price! It is $26 on amazon. LRI FR Freedom Fusion 6 Red, 2 Yellow LED Headlamp

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    Last edited by Norm; 04-17-2012 at 04:03 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by dodgydd View Post
    Picked up my H51f from the post office this morning. The UI is great, easy to use and in the work bathroom with light turned off at work it seems perfect for what I was after (close up work like cooking and setting up the tent while camping, in tents, etc). I am camping in a few weeks time so it will be great to test it then. Thanks for the advice.

    I think I might just try a DIY red cover and use it on low for astronomy. Understand the argument above that the wavelength may not be right etc, but at least I won't attract the attention of star party white light police.

    Now, for the new project, to build a red light system inside my scope eyepiece case to make it easier when swapping lenses... Maybe some cheap leds will do the job...
    You might be able to find some red tinted tape to try. Everyone once in a while you see cars with a busted taillight covered with the stuff... that might be worth a shot. Otherwise, just get some red gel film or something similar, and slap some scotch tape on it to hold it over the lens. It'll cut down on the intensity, but that's exactly what you want for a star party anyway.

    On a side note, my wife and I are going to the Golden State Star Party this summer, so I'm going to contact them about possibly giving a talk there about this whole night vision issue, and see if I can get some learning going, and lower the non-red light prejudice amongst amateur stargazers.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by B0wz3r View Post
    That's exactly what I do. I alternate between my H51w and my ST5-190nw for general camping/outdoor use, and my NVG photons for astronomy and star parties. People give me crap sometimes about the green, but I use them responsibly and tell them to ask me about it in the morning, and just ignore them after that if they won't shut up.
    I think part of the reason for sticking to red only is that most consumer led lights can't be dimmed adequately. Of course specialized lights like Photons and Skylites are well known on these forums, but astronomy groups may be concerned about new members showing up who don't realize that the "low" setting on their light isn't low enough.

    Sure, most of the red (or reddish-orange) leds in consumer lights are generally too bright also, but at least the longer wavelengths don't do as much damage compared to shorter wavelengths at similar levels. (I realize after finding a more detailed graph of red and white light rod sensitivity that someone posted on here that red loses its advantages at extremely low output levels, but again newbie consumer lights usually don't have extra-low settings).

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by darknessemitter View Post
    I think part of the reason for sticking to red only is that most consumer led lights can't be dimmed adequately. Of course specialized lights like Photons and Skylites are well known on these forums, but astronomy groups may be concerned about new members showing up who don't realize that the "low" setting on their light isn't low enough.

    Sure, most of the red (or reddish-orange) leds in consumer lights are generally too bright also, but at least the longer wavelengths don't do as much damage compared to shorter wavelengths at similar levels. (I realize after finding a more detailed graph of red and white light rod sensitivity that someone posted on here that red loses its advantages at extremely low output levels, but again newbie consumer lights usually don't have extra-low settings).
    I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here... a lot of it is the fact that most hardcore amateur astronomers are concerned about properly indoctrinating newcomers to serious stargazing. At the same time, I also think they typically take it too far.

    As an FYI, here is a diagram that I use in my classes for when I cover this topic in various classes, either intro cognitive psych, general sensory perception, or the specialized class on visual perception and attention I occasionally teach.

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  24. #24

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by B0wz3r View Post
    I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here... a lot of it is the fact that most hardcore amateur astronomers are concerned about properly indoctrinating newcomers to serious stargazing. At the same time, I also think they typically take it too far.

    As an FYI, here is a diagram that I use in my classes for when I cover this topic in various classes, either intro cognitive psych, general sensory perception, or the specialized class on visual perception and attention I occasionally teach.
    The confusing part is that a lot of these charts don't show that the rods actually do have some minimal sensitivity to red. I found that post where elgarak posted some interesting graphs with some of the detail that isn't usually shown:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...=1#post3491849

    (Seems like the last graph would've been better with Time as the horizontal value, but it's still usable)

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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by darknessemitter View Post
    The confusing part is that a lot of these charts don't show that the rods actually do have some minimal sensitivity to red. I found that post where elgarak posted some interesting graphs with some of the detail that isn't usually shown:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...=1#post3491849

    (Seems like the last graph would've been better with Time as the horizontal value, but it's still usable)
    Yeah, I've seen those graphs; I actually use them when I teach sensory perception. And yes, it's true that all photoreceptors respond to a relatively wide range of wavelengths; the difference is what part of the range they are keyed to. In the study of sensory perception, this is what's called the "labelled line" vs "across fiber" encoding patterns. Labelled line refers to the fact that most sensory receptors (not just visual receptors) are keyed to respond best to a particular narrow range of stimuli, but that they still do respond weakly to stimuli outside of their target range. This creates the across fiber encoding mechanism. We experience particular qualities of sensory experiences not only because of the fact particular receptors are keyed in to a narrow range of stimuli, but also because the combined signals from those different receptors produce a particular pattern of activity in them that itself codes the qualitative aspects of the experience. This creates what are called constancy effects. In other words, we see a red object as red, and a blue object as blue, under either bright or dim light, because the pattern across the receptor fibers remains the same in terms of the ratios of the activity of the different receptors, because of their selectivity. So regardless of how bright or dim it is, blue objects produce the same pattern of activity across the different receptors.

    I posted the one I did though, since we're discussing scotopic vision here, wavelength is a more influential factor than absolute intensity. While changes in wavelength will produce different perceived intensities because of the selectivity of the receptors, I'm assuming that the absolute intensities involved are still low enough that the mesopic threshold his not being crossed.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    ZL H51Fc Low 2 could be lower, turns out that .28 lumens (for 16 days) is pretty bright. H600w with .09 lumen Low2 sounds about perfect (80 days! lol!)
    The brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by eh4 View Post
    H600w with .09 lumen Low2 sounds about perfect (80 days! lol!)
    One of the user interface "problems" (and I use the term loosely) with the H600 and others in that ZebraLight series is the ease with which the lamp can accidentally be turned on in high mode. I can imagine some pretty miffed people nearby if the lamp were accidentally clicked into 750 lumen mode (even briefly) when the intent was something in the .1 lumen range.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    That is very true. I was thinking of my own uses. The only problem I have with the ZL ui is if I'm distracted, if I am paying attention there is no trouble hitting low. I think that was factored into the ui as well, just hitting the button - in a panic or whatever brings High... BTW, if I want L2 and can't remember if memory is set on L1 or L2, I just close my index and middle finger around the lens and select if necessary before lifting my fingers. L1 through fingers is .000? lumens.
    The brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Yeah, I was just throwing in a kind of random observation on accidentally turning the H600 on to high rather than low. Even with my using it rather frequently, I'll occasionally do that myself when my intent was to go to low (usually when distracted or just not thinking about it).

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Headlight for camping and astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by varuscelli View Post
    Yeah, I was just throwing in a kind of random observation on accidentally turning the H600 on to high rather than low. Even with my using it rather frequently, I'll occasionally do that myself when my intent was to go to low (usually when distracted or just not thinking about it).
    Yikes!

    Sounds like another item to add to my list of "why I don't need a 750 lumen max output headlamp"!
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