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Thread: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

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    Flashaholic Vernon's Avatar
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    Default Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    I'm a huge McGizmo fan. I've only had the privilege of owning a Mule and a Haiku, but that's all I need to know that his work is awesome. I ended up selling my Haiku XML (I know now that I should never sale a McGizmo, dang it) because I just couldn't accept the cool tint for EDC, but I assumed that I wouldn't like the lower output of the CRI 119 (though this would resolve my issues with the XML tint). It seems the warm XPG would be the solution, but it's no longer an option. Then I got even more excited about the idea of neutral XML option, but that's not an option either (heck, I'd buy two Haiku's if this was an option).

    Don has been extremely gracious in answering some of my questions and making some great posts about tint and output, so I hope this thread honors his perspective. That said, is the Nichia 219 the perfect LE for the Haiku? Higher output and CRI goodness all in one?

    Thoughts, interests, and ramblings welcome...
    Last edited by Vernon; 05-07-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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    Flashaholic* maxspeeds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    I have a Nichia 219 Haiku and mule. I like them slightly better than my Nichia 119 haiku due to the slightly whiter tint and slightly higher output on higher drives.
    Cheers from the McGizmo state.

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    Flashaholic* Henk_Lu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Don wrote somewhere, that he tested the Nichia 219, but that there was something which he didn't like with that emitter. I don't remember if it was the "footprint" (what's that anyway?) or anything else, so I ordered a Nichia 119 LE, would have liked the 219 I guess!

    From my M61/219 I can tell that the beam is not as smooth as the one of the XP-G, seems to be more ringy (but Don's reflector smoothes them out quite well) and there are more artefacts as well. I don't know the 119 yet...
    My way : From Maglite and drop-ins over Fenix & Co to the real things - Customs and Titaniums!

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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    The only difference between the designator of 119 and 219 is the solder pad foot print. What is of significant difference between these Nichia high CRI LED's you guys are picking up on is the die which is designated elsewhere in the part number by a "V" or "C". I am using NCSL119 LED's and the 219's that are now getting out there are NVSL219. I recently tested a NVSL119 which is the same die but having the same foot print I have MCPCB's for. I tested one of each in my uncertified integrating sphere. I measured:

    Drive level *119 C -lumens *119 V - lumens
    100 mA * 29 * 26
    200 mA *55 * 53
    400 mA *100 *102
    500 mA *120 *124
    700 mA *147 *166
    1000 mA *N/A *212
    1500 mA *N/A *242



    CCT 4600K 4800K
    CRI ra 92 93

    What I didn't measure and make note of is the Vf of the LED's at the various drive levels. In both dies, the Vf increases significantly as the current increases. In other words looking at the numbers in the columns above you see a nice doubling of lumens from 102 to 212 in the 119V when the current is doubled from 500 to 1000 mA. However in this particular LED the Vf at 500 mA is 3.4V and 1000 mA it is 3.9V. None the less, the NVSL can be driven harder with greater output. In my 3V lights, the "sweet spot" and drive level I use on high is 500 mA and there is really no significant difference between a NCSL or NVSL. Where a NVSL would shine over a NCSL would be in a high CRI 6V Haiku with a drive level of 1000 mA on high. But that extra half volt at 1000 mA would represent 1/2 watt of additional heat being generated and in need of dissipation.

    One other consideration between the NCSL and NVSL is the die size difference, the NVSL is a larger die. In a mule the die size makes no difference and it is only lumens that count. In a collimated beam like the Haiku, the throw is based on surface brightness and at 500 mA these two LED samples have the same lumen output but the NCSL having a smaller die has higher surface brightness.

    I think the 219 package has its real merit for mods or other considerations where sharing the same foot print as the Cree XP-G allows for substitution or an alternative. In my case, I no longer have XP-G MCPCB's but do have custom MCPCB's designed for the 119 foot print which I would add is also a friendlier solder pad configuration.

    A final factor to consider is that Nichia makes these LEDs of the 119 and 219 foot print other than high CRI and with varying bins in CCT. The LED's of interest here are of the SW45 color bin where 45 designates 4.5K CCT.

    The NVSL119 sample I tested above was provided by a fellow CPF member who can identify himself if he is so inclined but in any case, many thanks to him for the sample!!

    I have been using Nichia LED's for many years now and I think it is great that they have been making inroads in the interests and consideration of the CPF community beyond my humble contributions and by virtue of the quality of light their LED's can generate. I am confident that I will at some point be using a next generation high CRI LED from Nichia.
    Last edited by McGizmo; 05-08-2012 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Cleaned up data table
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    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Using the [ code ] ... [ / code] tags should make the table more readable:

    Code:
    Drive level | NCSL119 Lm | NVSL119 Lm
    ------------+------------+-----------
         100 mA |         29 |         26
         200 mA |         55 |         53
         400 mA |        100 |        102
         500 mA |        120 |        124
         700 mA |        147 |        166
        1000 mA |        N/A |        212
        1500 mA |        N/A |        242

  6. #6
    Flashaholic Vernon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by McGizmo View Post
    I am confident that I will at some point be using a next generation high CRI LED from Nichia.
    Thanks for the detailed response, Don. Much appreciated. What rumors or thoughts have you heard on where Nichia will take their next LED?
    ...and He separated the light from darkness. Check out my lights.

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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    So, would this LED work well in the Makai with a 6V circuit? More material there for heat sinking. Drive current on your current driver is 1.4A. Would the reflector work with this platform?

    eala

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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by eala View Post
    So, would this LED work well in the Makai with a 6V circuit? More material there for heat sinking. Drive current on your current driver is 1.4A. Would the reflector work with this platform?

    eala
    Good question that I don't really have an answer for as I haven't tried this. For starters, I wouldn't be inclined to drive the NVSL beyond 1000 mA based on my bench testing. The gain in lumens is hardly worth the added power required. I have a few Makai heads left but will probably not order more when these are gone. The Makai is not very popular based on sales history. And most important, I don't have inventory of the NVSL119 LED's nor do I feel inclined to attempt to get some at this point because I have a whole bunch of the NCSL119 on hand. The 6V lights of mine are much less popular than the 3V versions and the NCSL119 is fine in the 3V lights.

    It is not a problem for you guys but I have to purchase the Nichia LED's in large quantities and through the years have ended up with a good amount of dead inventory as improvements arise and designs change. The idea of purchasing 1000 of the NVSL119 even if I could get an acceptable CCT and flux bin is hardly enticing with the thought of perhaps a few people wanting or requesting this LED with good reason over what I already have on hand. I am much more inclined to hang with what I have and wait for the next step forward from Nichia.
    Build Prices .... some mods and builds (not 4 sale) "Nature can be cruel- but we don't have to be."~ Temple Grandin

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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    I can wait for the next step forward, but, I would be in for one of the NVSL's if driven to 1 amp. How much better can the next step forward be? This one sounds perfect to me.

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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Must admit, the NVSL119 drivent at 1000 mA is perfect. Don was kind enough to build it into a Makai head for me. N'er have I beheld such a light. I think the high CRI, high output Makai is a great use for this LED. Beam is the best I have ever seen. CRI and CCT are also perfect. Slightly cooler than my High CRI Haiku (as the numbers above suggest).

    I am surprised at how well the 6V LE works with a 123 body. No issues at all.

    Don, I am very grateful. Thanks a bunch! You have made a "flashlight guy", as I am known around my house, very happy.

    Delighted I was able to pick up a Makai before they are gone. Surprised they are not more popular.

    eala

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    Flashaholic* run4jc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    I had Haiku Warm XPG engine without a host....uh, oh. I ordered 'a few' of the Nichia NVSL219AT-H1 4500k, 92CRI, B10 bin emitters - a couple on 10MM MCPCBs and a couple on 20MM, not really knowing what I'd do with them.

    Those of you who know me are aware that the high CRI Haiku is one of my all time favorite lights. Take the Haiku, add the most beautiful lack of tint beam (IMHO) out there, and you have a recipe for an amazing light.

    Then this 219 came out - after I tried it in a couple of different light engines and was really pleased, I ordered the emitters.

    Enough rambling.

    I've never modded a light engine before, and it seemed like heresy to even consider modding a Haiku engine, but that's what I did. I had to reflow the emitter - took one from the 20MM star and reflowed it onto Don's Haiku MCPCB. Soldered the leads back, fired it up, and much to my surprise, it worked!!!

    So in my sphere I'm getting (Lo, Med, High) approximately 5, 30 and 120 lumen of an absolutely beautiful beam. I still have my 119 engine, and it's still one of my favorites, but this 219 in the Haiku looks awesome.

    I have to say - after 'cracking open' a few light heads just to see what was going on in there, I have a new respect for Don's design. Everything is put together tightly and precisely, but his design allows for easy modding. I was impressed that he even leaves a bit of extra length on the leads from the driver to the board. For those of us overzealous, clumsy modder wanna bees it's nice that when we are removing the MCPCB from the 'can', the extra length avoids a forced disconnect on one of the leads.

    My ramblings can only serve to illuminate the obvious fact that I don't know much about modifying these lights, so I'll stop here!!

    .....Except to say, once again, the McGizmo Haiku continues to impress with it's utility and elegant simplicity. As emitters evolve, those of us fortunate enough to own McGizmos will probably have an easy time of keeping our lights 'updated.' Thanks, Don!

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    *Flashaholic* easilyled's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by run4jc View Post
    I had Haiku Warm XPG engine without a host....uh, oh. I ordered 'a few' of the Nichia NVSL219AT-H1 4500k, 92CRI, B10 bin emitters - a couple on 10MM MCPCBs and a couple on 20MM, not really knowing what I'd do with them.

    Those of you who know me are aware that the high CRI Haiku is one of my all time favorite lights. Take the Haiku, add the most beautiful lack of tint beam (IMHO) out there, and you have a recipe for an amazing light.

    Then this 219 came out - after I tried it in a couple of different light engines and was really pleased, I ordered the emitters.

    Enough rambling.

    I've never modded a light engine before, and it seemed like heresy to even consider modding a Haiku engine, but that's what I did. I had to reflow the emitter - took one from the 20MM star and reflowed it onto Don's Haiku MCPCB. Soldered the leads back, fired it up, and much to my surprise, it worked!!!

    So in my sphere I'm getting (Lo, Med, High) approximately 5, 30 and 120 lumen of an absolutely beautiful beam. I still have my 119 engine, and it's still one of my favorites, but this 219 in the Haiku looks awesome.

    I have to say - after 'cracking open' a few light heads just to see what was going on in there, I have a new respect for Don's design. Everything is put together tightly and precisely, but his design allows for easy modding. I was impressed that he even leaves a bit of extra length on the leads from the driver to the board. For those of us overzealous, clumsy modder wanna bees it's nice that when we are removing the MCPCB from the 'can', the extra length avoids a forced disconnect on one of the leads.

    My ramblings can only serve to illuminate the obvious fact that I don't know much about modifying these lights, so I'll stop here!!

    .....Except to say, once again, the McGizmo Haiku continues to impress with it's utility and elegant simplicity. As emitters evolve, those of us fortunate enough to own McGizmos will probably have an easy time of keeping our lights 'updated.' Thanks, Don!
    Well done run4jc, I have enormous respect for anyone who has the guts to use a soldering iron and sucessfully transplant emitters.

    Which beam do you prefer, the 119 or the 219?
    Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* run4jc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by easilyled View Post
    Well done run4jc, I have enormous respect for anyone who has the guts to use a soldering iron and sucessfully transplant emitters.

    Which beam do you prefer, the 119 or the 219?
    Well hello, and thank you, my friend!! I hope all is well 'across the pond'! Please do not bestow any respect on one as undeserving as I!

    Your question is a tough one...I haven't fully decided yet. In my opinion, the 119 has 'less' tint than the 219 that I installed, yet the 219 in a Malkoff M61 219 seems to be a bit cooler (although not cool per se.)

    Having said that, I slightly prefer the 219 I installed. It has just a bit larger spot and less of an outer corona. The 50% bump in brightness is appreciated, although it isn't a huge difference. The 119 still appears to be more 'accurate' for color rendition.

    So there's my wishy washy answer.

    (Oh, by the way, I removed and re-flowed the emitters on my stove top...)

    Last edited by run4jc; 05-26-2012 at 06:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by run4jc View Post
    (Oh, by the way, I removed and re-flowed the emitters on my stove top...)

    Fantastic 14 second video. Now I know how to do it too. I also have some 219's that need a home. What to do.... ?

    Did you remount the new LED in a similar fashion?

    eala

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    Flashaholic* run4jc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    PM sent, but yes, I re-flowed the emitter in the same way. More details in the PM!

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    Flashaholic* scout24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    Agreed on the cool 14 second video! I'm sure a liberal helping of intestinal fortitude helped... (the most forum friendly way I could think of to say what I really wanted to.) Haiku surgery! I like it! Can't wait to see the outcome in pictures... Well done my friend.

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    Flashaholic* davyro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Nichia 219 anyone?

    I've had my Haiku modded with a nichia 219 & i think it's great,everyone will be different but for me it 's something i'm very pleased with.What i forgot to mention is my Haiku is a 6V version
    & it gets better everyday i use it
    Last edited by davyro; 06-05-2012 at 03:58 PM.

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