The value of a "tactical" light for civilian concealed-carry

[Overclocker]

Lately i've been trying to justify the purchase of a powerful forward clicky like a klarus XT. i EDC a pistol btw...

a police officer would certainly have a lot of use for such a light but as a civilian, could you give me some scenarios where such a light would give me tactical advantage?

[madecov]

Late evening at a restaraunt parking lot or after a movie. The local mall etc. Bad guy walks up and you have a firearm and 400+ lumens of output in his eyes. He can't really see the gun but you can see everything from his head to his knees and insure he is unarmed.

[fishndad]

i can see no reason to edc a klarus xt if you are a civi,or even an off duty officer
. Big hunky klunky thing in your pocket on a holster coming out of the movies.
however there is absolutly an agvantage of lighting up a (bad guy).
My jet pc10 and rrt01 will light you up quick.(very small,tucks into the pocket and you wont even notic its there).
If you just want to go around with your conceal carry poking through your shirt and tac light holster sticking out
for everyone to notice than you shouldnt be carrying anyway.Hope this helps.

[baterija]

If you are going to draw that pistol because of a potential deadly force encounter you need to confirm two things. A reason to use deadly force and that the area behind your target is clear. Specific scenarios aside, can you do both of those things in the dark?

[Overclocker]

Late evening at a restaraunt parking lot or after a movie. The local mall etc. Bad guy walks up and you have a firearm and 400+ lumens of output in his eyes. He can't really see the gun but you can see everything from his head to his knees and insure he is unarmed.

yeah but in the real world the bad guy won't give you the chance to evaluate him first with your flashlight. if you try to do that then you would only leave one hand free to draw your gun with. not great if you need to lift up your shirt to draw from IWB like most civilians do

so you may have bought a couple of seconds by dazzling him with your strobe but you also tied up one hand with the flashlight which drastically slows down your gun draw and cripples your shooting ability since you're gonna be shooting with one hand only

[fishndad]

If you are going to draw that pistol because of a potential deadly force encounter you need to confirm two things. A reason to use deadly force and that the area behind your target is clear. Specific scenarios aside, can you do both of those things in the dark?

no probably not and carrying isnt always a scenario of defending oneself,there have been hundreds of situations where had
someone been carrying they might have saved other lives.

[Overclocker]

i can see no reason to edc a klarus xt if you are a civi,or even an off duty officer
. Big hunky klunky thing in your pocket on a holster coming out of the movies.
however there is absolutly an agvantage of lighting up a (bad guy).
My jet pc10 and rrt01 will light you up quick.(very small,tucks into the pocket and you wont even notic its there).
If you just want to go around with your conceal carry poking through your shirt and tac light holster sticking out
for everyone to notice than you shouldnt be carrying anyway.Hope this helps.

the klarus xt2c is pretty small, and always turns on at MAX which seems to be the ideal setup for this kind of thing. an rrt of sunway V won't do a very good job of lighting up a BG if you accidentally left the ring on moon mode...

[Overclocker]

If you are going to draw that pistol because of a potential deadly force encounter you need to confirm two things. A reason to use deadly force and that the area behind your target is clear. Specific scenarios aside, can you do both of those things in the dark?

if ambient light is so low that you can't even make that assessment then as a flashaholic you should already have a flashlight turned on LOL

but even a typical "dark alley" has enough ambient light to make it possible for you to assess the situation

[fishndad]

ok my bad i was thinking along the lines of the 18650 or 2x123 models,
your gonna have no problems with form and comfort carrying this model.
sorry for assuming.but you said tactical and i guess (tactical) hasnt clearly been outlined.

[madecov]

Even something along the lines of the EagleTac P20C2 MKII XML can be a decent high powered EDC. No reasont to carry a larger light. The Quark line has very good choices also.

[Samy]

Deleted...

[baterija]

if ambient light is so low that you can't even make that assessment then as a flashaholic you should already have a flashlight turned on LOL

but even a typical "dark alley" has enough ambient light to make it possible for you to assess the situation

Well I rarely use a light unless I really need it. I enjoy the dark and dark adapted vision. I also have a bit of the military bright white light is bad impulse from early in my career. If you are using a light in that situation anyway ...or carrying anyway ... it's useful to have the UI be one that fits with the tactical role if you are carrying concealed.

As to the typical dark alley being good enough, well the costs are high if you get it wrong. A buddy in the National Guard who's civilian job was law enforcement once almost shot an unarmed teen in one of those dark alleys. He cleared holster 100% sure that he was using deadly force. If he'd been a little bit faster he would have shot. If the teen had reacted a little slower he would have shot. The teen dropping the "gun" in the brief time it took stopped him with his finger on the trigger and sights aligning. There was no gun and the teen was just an innocent bystander not the suspect he went into the alley looking for. Even without using force it was a traumatic emotional event because my buddy knew that his intent was to kill and that he was wrong.

There's significant legal, financial and emotional risks to choosing to use legal force and being wrong. There's physical risk to not using force when you should have because you haven't seen enough to legally use deadly force. We're not really talking about whether you EDC a light, it is CPF after all =)). If you are carrying a weapon it's simply an issue of carrying one that has a UI compatible with the weapon.

[Wisdom]

I avoided a fight in a movie theater with a flashlight.. was EDC'ing a Nitecore EX10 at the time. The guy in front kept using his cellphone during the movie and I politely (seriously.. I was polite) asked the individual if he would stop. He stood up, turned around, and started threatening me so I whipped out the EX10 and blasted it in his face on full power. I don't think he knew what to do, so I think he tried to act tough by staring the light down. Seconds later, he turned around, sat, and had his hands over his eyes for the next few minutes.. shortly thereafter, his friend escorted him out of the theater.. I think he went to the bathroom to either rinse his eyes or throw up.

They came back minutes later, but it was obvious he wasn't watching the movie and he had his head in his hands at least half the time. He and his friends waited for me outside the theater after the movie. I acknowledged him with a nod while passing by and made my way into the crowd with my friends.. they didn't say anything or follow and that was the end of it.

Although in hindsight, what I did was probably both stupid and reckless, the point is that the light from a flashlight can be an effective deterrent. I'm sure there are a thousand opinions on this, but I would suggest you carry a flashlight with the mentality that it is a useful tool and not a combat tool. Although it can be used in many different ways, equally effectively, I don't allow whatever light I'm carrying to give me any unrealistic sense of security.. although it's probably the first thing I'd reach for if things got hairy. Seeing as you EDC a pistol, you probably already have a mature understanding of what I'm getting at.
-\Visdom

[flashlight nut]

There have been threads in the past discussing prefered UI's for law enforcement. I am not going to rehash those discussions because they usually end with people on different sides of the fence agreeing to disagree with each other other. I will say that carrying a gun requires you to be constantly alert and scanning your surroundings so that the bad guy does not get the jump on you. This is important wether you are armed or not but especially if you are armed. Having a flashlight to scan your surroundings in the dark and to illuminate any potential threat approaching you is important and can give you ample time to draw your firearm if justified to do so. If not you still must learn to draw while actively being attacked in case the bad guy does get the jump on you. Most of the officers on my job have night sights on their firearms and are told to use the glowing dots to line up their sights in low light situations. My comment to them is, if it is dark enough for you to see the glowing dots on the sights you will probably not be able to identify your target other than seeing a dark silhouette. You must be able to ID your threat. Tactics and skills are not learned by reading or by osmosis. They are learned from proper instruction from qualified individuals and constantly honed by physically practicing them.
After giving the long answer first (sorry), the short answer is firearms and flashlights definately go together wether you are a LEO or civilian.

[Divine_Madcat]

Perhaps I am weird, but i EDC my Fenix Tk15... Perhaps i love by that old adage -"If its worth doing, its worth overdoing". I already carry a phone on my belt; adding a light isn't a huge issue. When i do need the light, i dont know how long i will need it, or how bright i will need it.. i think a full sized light gives me great versatility.

[0dBm]

"...but you also tied up one hand with the flashlight which drastically slows down your gun draw and cripples your shooting ability since you're gonna be shooting with one hand only"
You have apparently thought this out. Don't carry one if you are not comfortable with one.

You have apparently done the research to justify the need to carry a firearm. You need to do more research to determine if you need a powerful flashlight. Speak first with someone with whom you have identified as a basis of comparison for this quagmire: a police officer. Thereafter, speak with a civilian whom has carried a firearm for sustained periods to determine the rationale for that "tactical" light.

You will discover the same same reasons.

[Overclocker]

You are almost never "surprised" that it is dark. If you go out after sundown guess what...it will likely be somewhat dark. So if you go into a movie theater at 8PM and it was dark when you go there and you leave at 10 PM we can assume it will still be what? Dark. So go ahead and get teh light in hand. No reason not to palm your light as you go to your car.

Most of the time (unless we are talking about clearing a building) a flashlight is a luxury not a necessity. It is almost never pitch black outside. There are very few instances where there is not enough ambient light to still read body language and intent. And enough ambient light to shoot by. Especially when the target is approaching us trying to rob us. They don't rob you from across the parking lot. They get CLOSE to you. They have to in order to take anything from you.....so the NEED for a flashlight for a civilian to shoot (other than indoors at night with the lights off) is GREATLY overstated.

And before the cops jump in and say that leads to mistaken identity shootings, let us remember civilians are not out trying to arrest people. They are reacting to a physical assault. It is pretty easy to tell when somone is approaching you and trying to hurt you. Not as easy to tell what the guy you just ordered to stop and show his hands is doing. So there is a bit of a difference between taking people into custody and walking to your car at night in the Wal Mart parking lot.

In a typical civilian criminal assault reactive shooting you will either have the light in hand when it starts or not. If you do then you'll probably use it. If not you'll probably use it after the fight is over. No one fast draws a light mid fight. At least no one I have ever seen doing it against a real live opponent. Most have a hard enough time just getting off the X and getting their gun out much less trying to fish their light out too.

Accessing the light needs to be part of the "pre fight" not try to do it while under attack. And most of the time in an urban environment there is plenty enough light to shoot without having to use the light. The light is primarily to identify or at least to help see what is in their hands. Secondary use is to deescalate. No one wants to be SEEN attacking someone. Light causes witnesses to look that way. It can also be used as a distraction device. But NEEDING one to be able to shoot in an urban or suburban environment (with lots of ambient light like street lights and business lights) is just not likely.

Randy Harris
Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

found that post at: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...light-use.html

made perfect sense

[0dBm]

"But NEEDING one to be able to shoot in an urban or suburban environment (with lots of ambient light like street lights and business lights) is just not likely."
Randy's background is urban tactics. Speak with someone in a rural environment and you will find a different opinion. Continue with your research.

[flashlight nut]

Overclocker, the article has some good points and not so good points. It is always better to identify a dangerous situation and avoid it than realizing it too late. That is what scanning your environment is all about.
Most bad guys will try to get close without alarming you or position you to their advantage before attacking. It is not necessarily obvious that someone is approaching to rob you. Even urban environments have dark areas or cast dark shadows that can hide a threat. As OdBm stated, keep researching. You will find many articles from different experts that contradict each other. You will have to make your own determination.

[eh4]

There is no one scenario. Good tools are good to have handy. Ergonomics, UI, easy carry and familiarity are key. Too small is problematic, too big is also. Just don't ever be hampered by gear when it's time to move. -I've done that, it's even worse than being a fashion victim, if you survive to relish your chagrin.

[fishndad]

i edc a flashlight for work and becouse i like having it on me. i carry a weapon to to protect my family.
in an emergency life on the line situation i pray for clarity. i pray i do not reach for my flashlight.

[dc38]

As mentioned above, the purpose of an edc is to have a flashlight literally IN HAND, so by the time it needs to be used, it is not tucked in your pocket somewhere. Whenever I go for walks or watch a movie in a theater or stay out late, my flashlight is always in my palm, clipped to an elastic i have wrapped around my hand. that way, the flashlight is always in ready position, just raise my hand and click the switch. If i need my fingers for something, I just unwrap my hand, and the light is still palmed and ready in my hand. anyways, true story here - I was leaving a night class almost a year ago, and this shady dude stumbled up to me. I was ready to flash and run (or beatdown), which was a good to have been ready for. The guy was drunk, stumbled up to me and said "i need your money" and started reaching into his waistband for something. I whipped out my xeno and blasted him full in the face and he (AMAZINGLY) crumpled to the floor as if I had maced him...I felt kind of bad afterwards; as his arm was extended out on the floor, I saw a deadly wallet in the light -_-. So i apologized and told him not to ask for money that way, bought him a water bottle from a vending machine to sober up, and went on my merry way. :/ but yeah, My paranoia finally "paid off" lol.

[zenbeam]

I never went for the concealed carry permit in Texas. I grew up target shooting (more like plinking at abandoned rock quarries and such) and became rather handy with handguns (revolvers more so). I've also trained a number of years in martial arts and have developed a reasonably strong personal sense of situational awareness. All that combined and still I prefer not to have a handgun with me when I'm "out and about". I still respect the element of surprise and would just rather not arm an assailant with my own weapon. But I don't disagree with competent individuals choosing to EDC a concealed handgun. I just wanted to state my personal view. Maybe one day, I will change and go for that permit.

But what I really wanted to say... lol.. was in fact about flashlights. Two things:

If all I had was a powerfully bright flashlight that would easily blind a "bad guy" who was clearly intent upon causing me harm - I would love those extra few seconds to either disappear or shut that "bad guy" down - and then disappear.

And the other thing, the Zebralight SC600 is, IMHO, a very tactical light actually because, if you left the memory set correctly, all it takes is one quick tap of the switch to BLAM an assailant in the face with 750 lumens! And it's such a little, easily concealed light. If that's not tactical, then my hat will taste great for breakfast!

So far, I just carry lights to have light if needed. Not so much with self defense in mind - but that isn't ruled out either.

Do I waffle? lol

[EMC2]

Does anybody know anything about the modified D maglite with extention enforcement is currently using? It is seriously bright and will definately mess you up.

[HotWire]

Glad I had my M4. I was walking barefoot (Colorado River) in swimming trunks down to the boat and I thought I saw movement. Turned on the light! The biggest, fattest, longest, ugliest, scariest rattlesnake I ever saw right in the middle of the path! A quick twist and I was gone! Thanks, Surefire!

[watson.01]

I for one love the surefire E series lights. My EDC most of the time is a Surefire E1B Backup 110 lumens is pleanty in dim or dark conditions and not so bright that you blind yourself. If you feel like a little more power the E2D LED defender or Lx2 Lumamax is nice. Took my E2D out last night when i went for a walk 200 lumens sure lights up the night.

[lightfooted]

Already lots of great responses and while I'm sure Zenbeam is more than capable of defending himself from attackers I would wonder how he would deal with someone else being attacked and obviously about to be murdered from 30-40 feet away?

Personally even before all of these LED wonderlights came about I always carried a Surefire with me, often even while not carrying my sidearm...but always when I did. Sure you may not always need light to see your attacker these days but in this modern era of technological wonders...why would you not avail yourself of little conveniences like a Sunwayman V11R??? Would you consider "going out on the town" with family or friends and not take your cell phone?

The two things I always told my students that they should carry even if they decided that going armed was not for them was a flashlight and a cell phone. The phone (even if it didn't have an account could still call for help) for obvious reasons and the light for all those things you never realize until afterward...even signaling the emergency services personnel arriving to help.

[dc38]

I never went for the concealed carry permit in Texas. I grew up target shooting (more like plinking at abandoned rock quarries and such) and became rather handy with handguns (revolvers more so). I've also trained a number of years in martial arts and have developed a reasonably strong personal sense of situational awareness. All that combined and still I prefer not to have a handgun with me when I'm "out and about". I still respect the element of surprise and would just rather not arm an assailant with my own weapon. But I don't disagree with competent individuals choosing to EDC a concealed handgun. I just wanted to state my personal view. Maybe one day, I will change and go for that permit.

But what I really wanted to say... lol.. was in fact about flashlights. Two things:

If all I had was a powerfully bright flashlight that would easily blind a "bad guy" who was clearly intent upon causing me harm - I would love those extra few seconds to either disappear or shut that "bad guy" down - and then disappear.

And the other thing, the Zebralight SC600 is, IMHO, a very tactical light actually because, if you left the memory set correctly, all it takes is one quick tap of the switch to BLAM an assailant in the face with 750 lumens! And it's such a little, easily concealed light. If that's not tactical, then my hat will taste great for breakfast!

So far, I just carry lights to have light if needed. Not so much with self defense in mind - but that isn't ruled out either.

Do I waffle? lol

I suppose you possess a "slap cap"? lol

[Fireclaw18]

the klarus xt2c is pretty small, and always turns on at MAX which seems to be the ideal setup for this kind of thing. an rrt of sunway V won't do a very good job of lighting up a BG if you accidentally left the ring on moon mode...

RRT-01 doesn't have a button, it just has the rotator ring as its only control. Since it's the only control, it's impossible to accidentally leave it in moon mode. It's also possible to flick the ring from off to max power in less than a second... about as fast it takes to click the button on other flashlights.

[fishndad]

RRT-01 doesn't have a button, it just has the rotator ring as its only control. Since it's the only control, it's impossible to accidentally leave it in moon mode. It's also possible to flick the ring from off to max power in less than a second... about as fast it takes to click the button on other flashlights.

thats right also when you you remove it from your pocket your thumb and index fingers are right on the control ring.
i love mine and wish more brands would jump on the rotary bandwagon.