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Thread: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Buttrock Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III --NEW FF4 info. added!

    Round II of battle for compact King of the Woods.
    (See original thread of battle in the woods I here:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-Throw-vs-HIDs)

    The Lights:

    1. SR51:
    Since this is for battle of the compacts, I didn't want to bring in anything bigger than FF1. For the size, SR51 is the best LED thrower & is nearly identical shape & size as FF1. My SR51 scored 56,000 Lux@ 1 meter, more than CPF reviewed 40Klux & a German flashlight forum reviewed 50K lux. This is a super performer.
    Amazingly, the throw is from an OP reflector, making the spot much bigger & thus more useful in the woods than small spot led throwers.


    2. Firefox 1:
    Still World's smallest 35W HID, This is the ringing champion from battle in the woods I. This is from small custom run in 2009 before Firefox turned into a business & made much bigger FF2.
    More details of this light here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...5W-amp-40W-HID


    3. Firefox 3:
    World's smallest 40W HID, only available in China & the latest masterpiece from fire-fox creator shinetop.
    This is insanely small for full power HID, I didn't think it's possible to make a full power HID smaller than FF1, Shinetop did it again. Custom ballast is wrapped around the reflector & thus takes no room , the height is pretty much reflector/bulb sitting on top of 4x18650 battery rack.



    FF1 & SR51 fit perfectly in SR51 Box:


    Opening the box of FF 3, the feeling is unreal!


    Group Photo:




    Fire-fox 3 Photo Shoot with my Point & Shoot camera:





















    Ceiling Bounce:
    SR51 115 kux
    Fire-Fox I: 235 lux
    Fire-Fox III: 505 Lux
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 02-28-2013 at 01:27 PM.
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    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Reserved.

    Battle ground is the Woods in the back of my house. Chopped bunch of trees to open up 200-250 feet. My saw a bear came to our yard. Logs are at about 130 ft, stacked as Bear barrier to stop "polite" bears

    Zoomed in, Big tree in the center is exactly 200 feet, the second tree, left from the center is about 250 feet.




    Beam Shots are up:
    Manual Exposure
    ISO 200, F3.3, 1" Exposure

    SR 51


    FireFox 1



    FireFox 3


    SR51 Zoom


    FF1 Zoom


    FF3 Zoom
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 05-30-2012 at 06:27 AM.
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    BVH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Let's see those beam shots! I's got to be dark by now. I discovered there are up to 18 FFIII's available in other than China.
    WWII 60" Anti Aircraft Carbon Arc (Sold), Short Arcs: 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600 Watt M-134 Gun Light, 500 Watt X-500-14s, 500 Watt Starburst, 300 Watt Locators, Megaray, 150 Watt Set Beam & Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, LarryK14@52V

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    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Sorry , I spent whole evening at my table saw trying to make a SMO reflector for SR51...

    DX SST-90 SMO reflector vs. SR51 OP:


    Side View


    Finished SR51 SMO to the right


    Unfortunately, it didn't work out as I thought, I got 40Klux with the SMO, all the grinding has made the surface not as shiny. Epic Fail for all the efforts
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  5. #5
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III


    Improving upon FF3.


    The great FF3 also has a flaw, it has a loud high pitch sound. especially at start up, this is 5-10x louder than PWM whine that some times audible in PWM control flashlights.

    No one will get lucky & get a quiet FF3, this is because FF3 ballast is not potted.

    Edit: The whine is fixed in later production lights

    Here is the head opened up & ballast exposed:


    I potted the space between the double deck boards, arround the center opening hole. Hopefully, this will cut down the noise significantly.

    I also added a Mylar heat shield collar (car exhaust wrap, heat resistant to 2000F). This should reduced the heat radiated down from reflector and delay the thermo kick-down. (Stock FF3 can only run about 8 min before thermo kick-down to reduced power running at only 24W.). I want the light to be able to stay at 40W longer.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 10-07-2012 at 05:35 AM.
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    Flashaholic* Lips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Love the double mod ma shaw!

    Did it work?



    Kinda loud was a complaint I saw and also the lens is not AR coated. Can you get to lens, is it a standard size?



    How do you figure they got such a large increase in power output from version I to III. Around 7 watts more power in Ver III and yet 235 lux vs 505 lux. Any ideas? I do believe the ballast was redesigned...


    Ceiling Bounce:
    SR51 115 lux
    Fire-Fox I: 235 lux
    Fire-Fox III: 505 Lux

    .

  7. #7
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lips View Post
    Love the double mod ma sha!

    Did it work?
    Thanks, Lips!
    It did work for the sound but only a little bit, still pretty audible, especially at start-up. I potted only the inner side, I didn't fill the space all the way to the wall, because I didn't want heat from the head to travel down the metal & heat-up the components via thermo potting material, that would be counter productive.

    I think the heat barrier worked really well. I had it run solid 15 min w/o lens so that it'll bake out any glue residues. The light stayed rock solid at ~500 lux ceiling bounce until I shut it off at 15min, w/o thermo kick-down. But since no lens, I am not sure how much is my mod & how much is due to open air.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lips View Post
    Love the double mod ma shaw!

    Kinda loud was a complaint I saw and also the lens is not AR coated. Can you get to lens, is it a standard size?

    How do you figure they got such a large increase in power output from version I to III. Around 7 watts more power in Ver III and yet 235 lux vs 505 lux. Any ideas? I do believe the ballast was redesigned...
    .
    Yes, lens can be taken out easy, The lens is a little over 2", not standard size. I was thinking about getting an AR lens but it requires EXACT fit, not going to have any tolerance for wrong size at all.

    Yes, the gain is shocking!

    I think there are several factor at play. The 4300K ON ff3 give more lux, the FF3 might be using a better lamp? as FF2 used Philips lamp, however the FF3 is known to have more lumen than even FF2, it must have a lamp as good as Philip or better. Power output might also gained efficiency, HID is known for efficiency gain as power goes up, but still, I didn't expect this.

    This was one of the 40 pre-production run lights, they might have picked better component for show? Some have measued PRE-PRODUCTION MODEL ACTUALLY OUT PUT 42w INSTEAD OF 40w. It's possible they hand picked best components for the pre-production run to generate buzz?

    The hugely increased output is also evident in lux measurements below.

    10 meter lux measurements:

    SR51 65,000 lux @ 1 meter
    Fire-Fox I: 95,000 lux @ 1 meter
    Fire-Fox III: 225,000@ 1 meter This is N30/L35 level of throw with much smaller reflector.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 05-28-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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    Flashaholic* mvyrmnd's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post
    Thanks, Lips!
    It did work for the sound but only a little bit, still pretty audible, especially at start-up.
    If it gets too much for you, I'll take it off your hands

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by mvyrmnd View Post
    If it gets too much for you, I'll take it off your hands
    Hahaha, my friend, you are too kind, I can't let you bear this burden
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 05-28-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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    Flashaholic* mvyrmnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post
    Hahaha, my friend, you are too kind, I can't let you bear this burden
    It's a bullet I'm willing to take!

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* Lips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post

    Yes, the gain is shocking!

    I think there are several factor at play. The 4300K ON ff3 give more lux, the FF3 might be using a better lamp? as FF2 used Philips lamp, however the FF3 is known to have more lumen than even FF2, it must have a lamp as good as Philip or better. Power output might also gained efficiency, HID is known for efficiency gain as power goes up, but still, I didn't expect this.

    This was one of the 40 pre-production run lights, they might have picked better component for show? Some have measued PRE-PRODUCTION MODEL ACTUALLY OUT PUT 42w INSTEAD OF 40w. It's possible they hand picked best components for the pre-production run to generate buzz?

    The hugely increased output is also evident in lux measurements below.

    10 meter lux measurements:

    SR51 65,000 lux @ 1 meter
    Fire-Fox I: 95,000 lux @ 1 meter
    Fire-Fox III: 225,000@ 1 meter This is N30/L35 level of throw with much smaller reflector.


    What batteries are you using? How do they fit?

    How is the battery holder as far as quality fit and finish? Spec sheet says it's protected with a low voltage indicator on spec sheet, is there an led or something?

    The production spec sheet list power at 42 watts with .5 + - I read glue for ballast was changed on production units.

    Any way to isolate component on ballast making whine and pot the heck out of it. Or now way to tell...




    .

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I am using Panasonic 3100MAH unprotected batteries, fits perfect but there little room for protected battery I think, as the spring is compressed all the way already.

    Battery holder is excellent quality. It has two leds to lit up the switch boot.


    If you completely pot everything, it should cut-down the whine further, but the heat from the lamp will get to the components faster, I think this will trigger the thermo kick-down early & reduce run time on Hi. I think this might be the reason why he didn't pot the ballast.
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    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Wow the FFIII is awesome! Really love the heat reflector mod but am slightly unclear about what you did to reduce the whinning noise. I know that you added something between the sandwich boards but couldn't tell what you put in there.

    Really looking forward to the beamshots!

    Thank you for this thread.
    Last edited by Patriot; 05-29-2012 at 04:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* Lips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post

    Here is the head opened up & ballast exposed:


    I potted the space between the double deck boards, arround the center opening hole. Hopefully, this will cut down the noise significantly.

    I also added a Mylar heat shield collar (car exhaust wrap, heat resistant to 2000F). This should reduced the heat radiated down from reflector and delay the thermo kick-down. (Stock FF3 can only run about 8 min before thermo kick-down to reduced power running at only 24W.). I want the light to be able to stay at 40W longer.





    I have some regular automotive ballast that are potted in standard epoxy resin. They are modified to go from 30 watts to 115 watts to bulb. At 115 watts the epoxy will tend to melt after some time. 85 watts they are fine all day long. Not sure what epoxy would do for sound but probably a permanent mod though!





    .

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Beam shots are up on post #2
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post
    Beam shots are up on post #2
    Nice shots...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    My gosh! That FFIII is a little stomper!

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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I gotta have one!...but where to buy???
    SPY 007 XM-L2, BVH 150w Vec192 HID, Gen III Maxabeam, Barn Burner, FireFox III, Mac's Customs 3840L & Damascus/Cu/Al Tri-EDCs, ma_sha1 FrankenMag, Drake, MF Scorpion 4x XM-L2, Tri-219 EYE10, XP-G2 X10

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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders View Post
    I gotta have one!...but where to buy???
    x2 definitely want to know where to buy outside of China!

  20. #20
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    There is a person in this thread (not me) trying to put together a group buy outside of China.
    If you read carefully on all the responses, there are actually enough "clues" left in this thread to go search & identify who/where that group buy is.

    Do not PM me, I am not going to reveal who it is unless the person wishes to identity himself.
    Just in case that he has a good reason not wanting to do this on CPF. A little leg work on your own goes a long way.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Well I've found where to but one from inside China, just need some help with Chinese/English translation. $205 approx. not sure about shipping. PM me if you'd like more info or can help with the translation. Appreciate all the effort you've put into this ma sha1.

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatspec View Post
    Well I've found where to but one from inside China, just need some help with Chinese/English translation. $205 approx. not sure about shipping. PM me if you'd like more info or can help with the translation. Appreciate all the effort you've put into this ma sha1.
    Saw your thread about TaoBao, that's not what I am talking abut. To save you from digging deep into a dead end: Taobao people don't ship to outside of China, translation isn't going to help you. Plus, Taobao exchange rate RMB to US$ is 5.3 (not street rate 6.2 ) which translate to $236, plus air shipping cost to USA about $50, making total cost about $286. That cost means nothing, as I don't think you'll be able to get one directly out of China. Unless some dealer takes on US market, the group buy is your best bet, it's a US based group buy, a few dollar lass than $286. To add insult to injury, Taobao doesn't accept paypal or foreign credit cards...
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 05-30-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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    Flashaholic kiely23+'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I am also interested in a FF3 group buy!
    "haben ist besser als brauchen"

  24. #24

    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Appreciate all the research you've done thus far ma_sha1. It's been fun reading through the shoudian forum about it too, the translations are hilarious as always with Google translate. If nothing else I found a cool animated gif avatar. Looking forward to hearing more about how things are running with the header wrap as heat shield. Hopefully you're getting improved run time on high after it was put back together

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* jmpaul320's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    if there is a group buy im interested in the ff3

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Yes, just google it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatspec View Post
    Appreciate all the research you've done thus far ma_sha1. It's been fun reading through the shoudian forum about it too, the translations are hilarious as always with Google translate. If nothing else I found a cool animated gif avatar. Looking forward to hearing more about how things are running with the header wrap as heat shield. Hopefully you're getting improved run time on high after it was put back together

    I saw that you found the group buy & throw your name in the hat, congratulations!

    I heard rumor on 100W Firefox, I think it's just rumor but non the less, who knows what FF4 would be? . One thing for sure, made in China can be industry leading some times...
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    i'm interested in the group buy. but haven't figured out where it is

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Google Fire-Foxes III HID Group buy
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Gosh ma_sha1, next time you'll know to put group buy instructions in your sig line before opening this thread with beamshots.

  30. #30
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    LOL, I guess I have a flaw of speaking the obvious some times.
    "Say hello to my little friend!"


    FF 3 with his little led brother: Triple 219 Mag Zero D.


    Last edited by ma_sha1; 05-31-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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