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Thread: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

  1. #31
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Just received my Production version of FF3 in the mail today:

    Left - Production FF3; Right - Pre-production FF3


    I got the production version to see if there's any improvements made over the pre-production unit. Ansolutely not!

    1. Ballast noise. It's as noisy as my pre-production unit before the mod, comparing the two side by side, my mod cut the noise down more than half.

    2. Components. I looked everywhere, can not see any difference what's soever.

    3. Performance:
    Visually: no difference can be observed.
    Measurements:
    Production Unit -
    Ceiling bounce 465/Throw 215,000 lux@ 1 meter
    Pre-production unit -

    ceiling bounce 505/Throw 225 lux@ 1 meter.

    The pre-production unit has slightly better performance but that could simply be light-to-light component variations or minor variation in focus.

    I put the production unit FS on CPFMP, got it for review, never intended to keep two:

    http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sho...68#post4654168
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 06-10-2012 at 04:48 AM.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    cant wait to receive mine, it looks like the units have started to arrive for the group buy

  3. #33
    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Thanks for all your great work here ma_sha1 A beamshot, lux readings and maybe a ceiling bounce reading of the 24w mode would be very useful (for everyone here I think) because this is how the light will probably be running most of the time. How long does it need approximately to cool down completely after the 8min on high?

  4. #34
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Thanks! After the thermo mod, I run about 15 min & it still didn't kick-down to 24W.

    I shut it off, as the battery got really hot. I am wondering if it'll be better to run this light on high current/lower internal resistance IMR battery such as panasonic CGR instead.

    I mixed one 2200mah CGR with 3 3100mah NCR18650a, after a short run, I took a measurement, every battery went down to the sane 3.8V. There is no difference on the initial capacity, I know CGR has less capacity but that's down at the low end, initially, the advantage is runs cooler with lower internal resistance.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 06-09-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Ma, do your CGR's have the "too short" label at the very end on the negative end so that about 1/32" or so of the metal case is exposed? This gave me dead short problems in the Magic scorpion as soon as that exposed case on the first two batteries hit the flashlight body going in.
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  6. #36
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Just checked my CGR 18650AF, it does have a small exposed section at bottom,
    I agree, this isn't a good battery to use!
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I'm looking for some extra thin wall shrink tubing and will try cutting the label off and re-shrinking. Standard shrink tube is way too think.

    The recovered label wall thickness is about .002 so I'd guess we're looking for .003 wall thickness or thinner. Not immediately found. Will keep looking.

    Battery pack shrink wrap - .005". Will probably work fine.
    Last edited by BVH; 06-09-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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  8. #38
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I realized that I have not announced the winner yet, the LED thrower of the same size is obviously not in the same league of the HIDs, but I am struggling between who is the winner between FF1 & FF3.

    Here is my attempt of trying to use Motor Trend method for cars: scale is 1-10.

    1. Performance
    Obviously, FF3 Wins, FF3 gets a 10. FF1 get 8. Sure FF3 blow away FF1, but FF1 is 100K & over 2000 lumens, similar to most 35W HIDs, which is plenty bright for most outdoor use. Think of it as SR90 or ebay HID but 1/3 the size, something just as powerful but doesn't need to be a weight lifter to carry it around.

    I prefer the beam profile of FF1, has a broad far projection beam but doesn't light up the ground excessively like the FF3. I wish the FF3 came with SMO. the beam of FF1 in SMO is nearly perfect, FF3 has perfect beam with 225 klux, but the light has potential to get over 300 klux with high quality SMO. I felt that they took the easy way out using OP at the expense of throw.

    2. Comfort in holding
    Both are very lite, The FF1 gets a 10, it's slimmest 35W HID & most comfortable for my hand. FF3 gets a 9, its fatter like the FF2, but very short some how made it
    easier to hold, otherwise would have been an 8.

    3. Workmanship
    FF1 gets a 10. I can't not find anything to nitpick about.
    FF3 gets a 9, everything is perfect except the annoying ballast whine. I wonder if commercialization time line is to blame. The FF1 was DIY, where the inventor Shinetop spend countless hours to make it perfect. I don't think he would have let it out the door if the ballast noise was in FF1 like this.

    4. Historical significance & value

    FF1 is unobtanium. FF3 is commercially available. I would put higher valuation on FF1. FF1 was a revolution. FF3 is more powerful & smaller but it's an evolution. being an evolution & the ballast is obviously 2-mode, I feel that it should have provided user selectable mode, so I could use 24W for most situations & runs cooler, then select 42W show-off mode as needed. FF3 gets a 9, FF1 gets a 10.

    5. Run time,
    Both about 1hr with panasonic 3100, both get a 9.
    FF1 runs cool, FF3 runs hot, to the point I am worried about battery blowing up. I don't think it will, just the feeling you get holding 4 18650 in your hand & the tube it gets burning hot. I must mention that my modified FF3 seem to run a little cooler than the production unit.

    FF1 Total: 37 points out of 50.
    FF3 Total: 36 points out of 50.


    The FF1 won by a hair. The bottom line is, If I had to walk in the woods for an hour in the dark, I am more likely to take FF1 with me instead of FF3. But If I don't have the FF1, I'll take the FF3 which is a better choice for me than just anout any other HIDs.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 06-10-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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  9. #39
    Flashaholic* jmpaul320's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    thanks for the review... i agree it would be nice to have a 2 mode option, low 24watt and high 42 watt rather than having to wait for it to get smoldering hot and step down.... 24w for everyday use, 42w for the OMG factor

    either way cant wait till the ff3s ship out from LIPS for the GB

  10. #40
    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Seems like a really fair assessment ma_sha and I like the Motor Tread scale of performance and value.

    Amazing to think that the FF3 gets that hot but with high quality cells I guess that takes some of the worry out, as they should have thermal protection.

    I would have been more interested had the FF3 used a SMO reflector as well but obviously this doesn't take away from its utility. 100K is still impressive for the size.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Something to think about when loading battery cartridges on any of the lights that use Lithium cells and that are short on cell length clearance. I'm aware of one incident where one cell was completely inserted into the carrier and the 2nd cell was in contact with the negative spring of the carrier but the positive tip had yet to be inserted in slot number 2. As the thin label covered rim (- polarity) of the cell passed by and made contact with the somewhat sharp edge of the positive contact nub, the label was tore exposing the negative polarity case to the positive contact and an instant dead short occurred. Luckily, this was a protected cell. The point of contact on the cell arced and immediately got hot. The cell was immediately removed and continued to remain warm to hot for hours. Had it been an unprotected cell, who knows.
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  12. #42
    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by BVH View Post
    Had it been an unprotected cell, who knows.
    Yeah...that's a pretty scary scenario Bob and good of you to share. Imagine the flash of heat put into that cell that it would be warm hours later.

    I have no confidence that any of the "Fire" cells would have escaped catastrophe and I can't imagine using anything unprotected in a multi-cell 18650 light like this.

  13. #43
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
    I would have been more interested had the FF3 used a SMO reflector as well but obviously this doesn't take away from its utility. 100K is still impressive for the size.
    FF3 is way more than 100K, FF1 is 100K, FF3 is 215 & 225K for my production & pre-production units respectively. I am hoping someone will make a SMO for FF3 at some point, it could go up to near 300K I think

    A while back, I have shorted out a un protected DX C-lion for a good 15-20 sec or so, it didn't explode, while the light didn't turn on due to the short & I took out the battery, it was burning hot, i put in outside & it eventually cooled down. I think if it kept going on for a while, the temp. would have kept rising & would have eventually ignited the cell on fire. I agree it's better to use protected cells, especially multi-cell format.

    The FF3 is designed for unprotected high capacity cells such as panasonic 3100 or 3400mah. It has built in protection for shorts. Protected cells won't fit. But the spring is long, I think cutting the springs could make em fit.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 06-10-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post
    FF3 is way more than 100K, FF1 is 100K, FF3 is 215 & 225K for my production & pre-production units respectively. I am hoping someone will make a SMO for FF3 at some point, it could go up to near 300K I think

    Thanks for the correction. I had it completely backwards....

  15. #45

    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Where the heck can i get a FF3 from? The group buy has ended and I would like one.
    PM me and please help !!

    Regards.

  16. #46
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    There is no other way besides the group buy
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  17. #47
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    Talking Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    HELLO ALL
    I'M FROM THAILAND. I HAVE JUST RECIEVED MINE.
    ALL I CAN SAY IS, WONDERFUL, EVEN IT'S SMALL HID, [ BUT QUITE HOT ]

  18. #48
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Welcome on board! The FF3 is quite amazing indeed.

    If it had high quality SMO, would easily get over 250K lux mark.

    I have reached out to Shinetop, the maker of FF3 & see if I can obtain a drawing of the FF3 reflector dimensions. I will look into a custom run of SMO if I can get the dimensions.


    Also, just an update.

    The noise is gone from later production units such as seen in the group buy. Possibly that later units has potted the ballast.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 10-02-2012 at 03:43 AM.
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  19. #49
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I got mine a few days ago, and I'm very impressed. So impressed in fact, that I ordered another one

    Mine is pretty loud during startup, but the noise goes away after about 10 seconds. After that I have to put the light next to my ear to hear it.

    I wish SMO was an option, but I'm not sure I'd risk voiding the warranty to replace the OP with an after-market SMO... I'm pretty happy with the throw as it is, and the beam sure is beautiful

  20. #50
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Well, I got a response, drawing not available. The focal point is 8mm but for making SMO, one will nee dto send his reflector to reflector mfg. to make a clone in SMO. I am not going to take my reflector & send it out. maybe lips, the group buy host is willing to do it? He may have spare reflector.
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  21. #51
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Awesome beam shots, thanks for the comparison!

    When the light clicks down to 24w, if it cools down a bit, does it then step back up to 40w? Or does it stay stepped down?

    ma sha1, do you think it's possible to fool the light into thinking it is hotter than it really is, to force it to click down? Maybe some kind of resistor mod you can switch on and off...assuming there's a thermistor somewhere inside. It would be awesome to use it on 24w and kick it up to 40w only when needed.

  22. #52
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    It will step back to 40w when cooled down, but it will only cool down when you turn it off, not going to "cool down" even at 24w

    Interesting thought on force it to 24W, I can imagine a resister placed next to the sensor for kick-down, the resister wired with it's own switch & force the kick-down by heating the sensor locally.

    The problem is , when you turn off the heating resister, I am not sure it'll kick up to 40W or not, at least not right away, which is not acceptable as no 40w mode on demand.

    Multi mode HID ballast is pretty common, such as 24W/35W or 28/35W ballast, where it allows switching on demand.

    Someone savvy with HID ballast may be able to transplant the mode switching components?
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  23. #53
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Ah thanks, that's good to know! 24w is still a lot in such a small device!

    I'd guess that the sensor is probably a thermistor, if so it wouldn't be necessary to heat anything.

    A thermistor is like a traditional resistor, but its resistance changes significantly more with the temperature it is at, and the relationship between resistance and temperature is known. The circuit measures the resistance of the thermistor in order to calculate the temperature of the light (typically using a simple voltage divider circuit). Therefore, if you placed a resistor in parallel with the thermistor, or in series with it, you could change what temperature the light thought it was at. You could then use a switch to connect and disconnect the added resistor, allowing you to switch "instantly."

    Maybe when/if I get this light I will have a look at the mod myself. It would be nice to use it most of the time at 24w and switch up to 42w for a burst every now and then.

  24. #54
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    I look forward to it. Two mods will make this light into perfection. A high quality SMO & a 2 stage mod
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  25. #55
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Just saw this posted on Shoudian.com, looks like the 150W FF4 is an incan?

    Google translate messed up a bit, but you can still make sense out of it thou.

    Fire-Foxes Firefox design Share (about 150W of ignition flashlight, October 9) [Copy Link]

    shinetop


    Ignition flashlight Specifications (October 9) 5 ~~ at 9 {& N1 ^ 0 \; `! K * {- U $ Y
    Recently, there has the many barrel I asked the Friends to fire 4, may be confused ignition flashlight being developed, the specific name is yet to be determined;
    Basic Specifications 2 \! K8 Y9 w t-J
    Light Source: Philips 6550 (halogen lamp) 150W luminous flux of 5000 lumens
    power: the 4 string 18650 power lithium battery + v + u / w% w & [$ t
    Drive: incandescent specific driver, two tranches or third gear power adjustment
    Size: 17cm long, head diameter 70mm, handle diameter 49mm
    Weight: about 450 grams without battery (overall and fire almost two centimeters long)
    life: 150W Ignition power under ten minutes, low light file up to about one hour or longer 6 M & Y1 q # j # E l
    Characteristics $ | 1 L; k2 q-d5 P-R
    12 or 15V G6.35-pin compatible with any power meter bubble, very easy to replace, playability, domestic nur even a few cents a burn nor sad;
    Cost compatible iron lithium battery, use a lot lower, but limited to the voltage meter Philips and Osram bulbs supports only up to 100W;% p "u1 o; a & G
    For the transmission of heat as much as possible, using a quartz lens; For security reasons, the switch insurance cover, to prevent inadvertently;
    for personal use only 8 l $ f5 J V. R feelings
    Combustible ignition capacity, basically all-conquering, color slightly deeper, a few seconds you can get, very suitable for outdoor ignition, encountered bad matches and lighters to cope with the situation, such as wet vegetation, not to mention; 0 Z $ R0 G4 O "T $` 3 E
    Night search capability, the same luminous flux LED and HID unmatched the fire transferred 50W not an opponent, incandescent human eye can identify with one second scene, the same brightness white LED, may need thirty-five seconds ;
    Big actual use, the fever did not imagine;
    take into account the degree of market acceptance of this product has not been determined whether listed; design has been conducting, but also because of personal preference, burning flashlight burn last in the front of the paozi charming, and probably very few people can bypass
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  26. #56
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    So, it's about the same size as the FF3 (2cm longer).
    It has 2 brightness settings, where high is 5000 lumens.
    Less than 10 min runtime on high. 60+ minutes on low.

    Sounds cool, but I think I'll stick with the FF3.

  27. #57
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Yes,

    It sounds like a shorter version of "The Torch" with higher watts & runs on 4x IMR 18650.
    I am kind of disappointed, I was hoping for 100W HIDs. 150W Incasn on 4 IMR 18650 will run around 10V, 15A, 10 run time may be over optimistic,
    more like 6 minutes with AW 1600mah IMR. Good for fire starting but I don't think it'll throw like the FF3, as those bulbs has huge filaments.
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  28. #58
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    oops, wrong thread.
    Last edited by Patriot; 11-27-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  29. #59
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Is it just me or looks like someone cloned the FF3 into LED?
    This is a Triple XML light I saw on shoudian.com but haven't heard anything from CPF, Roche M170?

    The size & the head looks like FF3, the body style looks identical to FF2.

    Last edited by ma_sha1; 11-29-2012 at 07:54 AM.
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  30. #60
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    Default Re: Battle in the woods II: SR51 vs. Firefox I vs. Fire Fox III

    Haven't explored Shoudian.com for a while, surprised to see that Fire-Foxes 4 hid is official Development.

    Quote

    "关于火4的功率1月25日)6 Q9 c' p/ Z6 u* L' \+ r
    刚才仔细阅读了跟贴,看来大家对功率的要求真是永无止境;
    为了满足玩家的发烧需求,会考虑将火四的极亮档增加到60瓦或更高,但目前还不能完全确定,尚有很多问题需 要解决。

    火4的一些参数2013年1月12日)9 m9 s3 R" h4 d; y1 s2 @
    由于企业版的排程将工厂产能占的很满,火3已经停止销售好几个月了,计划不再生产,预计几个月后会推出第四 代HID手电;) T) G0 X/ c9 t$ n5 s$ C
    火4将首次增加调光功能,关于这一点,自从火1时代起众多筒友就开始强烈建议;6 X% Z8 v8 I# g# b: O* c
    ① 三档调光,正常模式40W实际输出,低亮档模式24W,极亮档50W,理论光通量5000+流 明;1 Z: \' v4 s" j, N3 A3 u- {: Y: j
    ② 采用双开关,尾部开关作为保险,侧按开关负责开关及调光;
    ③ 仍采用掌上型设计,四串18650,体积和重量与火3相当。"


    Basically, using the FF3 body, FF4 power will be increased to 50-60W max, running same 4x18650 (IMR only?)
    It'll have modes for the 1st time in FF HID history, 24W low, 40W Normal, 50-60W Turbo! - Yeah!
    Dual switch, tail switch for lock-out, side switch for on/off & mode changes ---------Yeah!

    Look like the developer Shinetop has answered 2 out of 3 of my prayers, the 3rd one being SMO, which is not mentioned!
    I need to go on Shoudian & make some noises
    My Mods.. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...5&postcount=78
    Hobby only, I don't do custom mods as a service, thanks for understanding.

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