Driving light questions (Scheinwerfermann please help)

[Echo63]

Hi guys.
i am buying a new vehicle soon, probably a Subaru Forester.

I frequently drive on country roads (In Australia) and am looking for a good set of auxilliary driving lights to be switched (via relay, and a separate switch to kill them in the city) to activate only when the high beams are on.

I am not too worried about price, and am happy to spend more to get good lights, but I can't really justify spending the money on a set of Lightforce HIDs (which I understand don't have a good reputation here, although all the Aussie 4wdrivers rave about them) or Hella Predators,

i am not looking for a super tight spot beam (which seems to be all the lightforces are)
what I want is a light at throws well, but also throws a lot of light to the sides, so I can see Kangaroos and other animals on the side of the road and see around corners

I have been looking at Cibie Oscars, Super Oscars, and Hella Rallye4000, Rallye4000 compact, and the Baja designs Fuego

Does anyone have any input as to what would be best for my use ?
I would mostly be using these lights in the SouthWest of Western Australia, more winding country roads, than the typical image of Australia's flat desert areas, a typical straight stretch would be no more than 2km.
i am thinking Halogen would be better than Hid as I will be turning them on and off fairly frequently, and I believe that is hard on the Hid globes.

I am also asking this on a Rally forum I am a member of, the guys I am asking there all drive frequently in the same areas, normally towing their rally cars home from an event.

I already have a set of Hella Comet 500 (square) on my current car, they greatly improve my current cars lights, which I will be keeping (the lights not the car) and may put either side of the new lights, aimed slightly to the sides if need be, or I will put them on my wife's car.

[Hamilton Felix]

I used to run the Series 190 Oscar+ in driving pattern on my old Saab 99 Turbo (ran them on a pickup for a while, after the Saab was gone). The Cibie curved lens 5-3/4 H1 high beams had a very long range, but the H2 190 driving had better spread, as well as good range. And the Oscar+ was a pretty space efficient package. It just cleared that weird Saab 99 hood. In fact, I had 5-3/4 H1 high beams in Dietz buckets as auxiliary lights on my former wife's 900 Turbo (it had 200mm rectangular headlights that I replaced with Cibie lamps), and they cleared the hood just fine.

How much space do you really have? Are you planning to install "roo bars" that will have light mounting tabs?

Baja Designs' Soltek Fuego HID driving lamp would give you lots of range in a small package, but it doesn't have a small price. If you go that route, see if you can still get the 4,200K bulbs, not the 5,000K bulbs. Personally, on a rig that has some frontal area and had a decent sized alternator, I have trouble justifying the cost of HID (or LED). To me, the Soltek Fuego is a "motorcycle solution."

I've never tried any of the Cibie BiOscar products, but I've always found them interesting. Ask Scheinwerfermann for his thoughts (and if they are still available).

[Scheinwerfermann]

If I'm not mistaken, HID headlamps are available on that model; you'll want to get them. It sounds like the limiting factor will be the lamps' size; a careful measuring job of your available space may trim the list of options.

The Cibie Super Oscar is still a very difficult lamp to beat, as is the Cibie Turini Apollo. Both of these are enormous lamps, close to 23 centimeters in diameter, but if you have the space, go for it. Can't say anything bad about the Hella Rallye 4000. It sticks in the back of my mind that there have been some physical-durability issues with at least one variety of the Compact 4000, but I may be misremembering. It was one of the newer large-but-not-largest Hella lamp families. I'll dig and see what I can recall.

Also tough to complain about the other Oscars (Oscar, Oscar+, Oscar-SC).

You may also want to look at this thread for a very cost-effective upgrade.

"Baja Designs" is...gosh, I have a hard time being polite. ;-) Oh, here we go: In your position, I would stick to lamps made by companies that actually employ optical and photometric engineers.

[Echo63]

If I'm not mistaken, HID headlamps are available on that model; you'll want to get them. It sounds like the limiting factor will be the lamps' size; a careful measuring job of your available space may trim the list of options.

The Cibie Super Oscar is still a very difficult lamp to beat, as is the Cibie Turini Apollo. Both of these are enormous lamps, close to 23 centimeters in diameter, but if you have the space, go for it. Can't say anything bad about the Hella Rallye 4000. It sticks in the back of my mind that there have been some physical-durability issues with at least one variety of the Compact 4000, but I may be misremembering. It was one of the newer large-but-not-largest Hella lamp families. I'll dig and see what I can recall.

Also tough to complain about the other Oscars (Oscar, Oscar+, Oscar-SC).

You may also want to look at this thread for a very cost-effective upgrade.

"Baja Designs" is...gosh, I have a hard time being polite. ;-) Oh, here we go: In your position, I would stick to lamps made by companies that actually employ optical and photometric engineers.

Thank you !
I had a feeling about the Baja designs lights, and i cant find any reviews of them, you confirmed my feelings - more hype than science

The headlights on the vehicle will be halogen - its second hand, and a few years old.
Retrofitting HiDs to it (using the OEM subaru HID housing) will be expensive - to meet the ADRs it needs self levelling and headlight washers, both of which will need to be added
The lights will be going on a "bunny bar" basically a tube bumper with light tabs.

One of the guys at work has Rallye 4000 compacts, and my parents have had Oscars on their 4wds for the past 30 years
i will have to arrange to have a "test ride" of both lights

Thanks again for the help - i will let you know what i get, and put some beamshots together

[NFT5]

For your need I'd be recommending either the Hella 4000 compacts (which have performance approaching that of their bigger brothers) or the Cibie Oscars. I've had both. Both have excellent spread although in this respect the Cibies are possibly better but not as bright as the Hellas. Big lights would look out of place on a nudge bar on a Forester and most nudge bars are notorious for vibration so a bit smaller and lighter is better.

Both of these lights have similar construction with glass lenses and pressed metal reflectors however the Hellas have a cast body (heavier) while the Cibies are pressed making them more susceptible to rust. IMO the Hellas have a much better base/attachment system. Once tightened properly they will stay pretty much where you aimed them. The Hellas have a flat glass front and are more likely to break from stone damage. The inserts are also very expensive. Although they cut down the light somewhat, clear plastic covers are a good investment.

I'd also recommend that you match the bulbs in your headlights and those in the driving lights with good quality bulbs. There is a list of the best bulbs which was posted fairly recently. Not all are available here in Australia but it's a good start.

[Echo63]

For your need I'd be recommending either the Hella 4000 compacts (which have performance approaching that of their bigger brothers) or the Cibie Oscars. I've had both. Both have excellent spread although in this respect the Cibies are possibly better but not as bright as the Hellas. Big lights would look out of place on a nudge bar on a Forester and most nudge bars are notorious for vibration so a bit smaller and lighter is better.

Both of these lights have similar construction with glass lenses and pressed metal reflectors however the Hellas have a cast body (heavier) while the Cibies are pressed making them more susceptible to rust. IMO the Hellas have a much better base/attachment system. Once tightened properly they will stay pretty much where you aimed them. The Hellas have a flat glass front and are more likely to break from stone damage. The inserts are also very expensive. Although they cut down the light somewhat, clear plastic covers are a good investment.

I'd also recommend that you match the bulbs in your headlights and those in the driving lights with good quality bulbs. There is a list of the best bulbs which was posted fairly recently. Not all are available here in Australia but it's a good start.

Good Bulbs are on the list - i will have a look for that thread (im not afraid of ordering bulbs from overseas either)
i am still looking for the Australian Cibie distributor, they seem to be a little difficult to find here, other than Ebay.
in regards to the nudge bar - i will be using the most solid bar i can find, preferably one that is mounted at the bottom, and further up near the grill too - but that is a whole other issue - i dont want it to interfere with the approach angle.
I will probably end up fitting the Comet550 i currently have until i decide which lights i want.

Thanks again for the help

[Echo63]

Ok, i have found a fabricator to build me an easily removeable Rally style Light bar similar to this one
(Pic by Jackson Rally/Dirtyimpreza rally team)

I have measured the distance between the lights, and made a mockup out of cardboard and i am thinking of getting 2x full size Hella 4000, and 2x Compacts
they do all fit


what i am need to decide now is - would it be better to get a 4000 cornering, and a 4000 driving, and 2x compact pencil beams
or a 4000 cornering and a 4000 pencil, and 2x compact driving beams ?

any ideas ? i will be switching the 2x large lights, and 2x compacts separately

[JohnnyB]

If you have to worry about animals crossing the roads, I would consider the side spill. Maybe the pencil beams wouldn't be as useful as a light with a wide area of illumination to the sides. I personally would set 2 lamps to project as far down the road as your speed would dictate, then set the other 2 up in some sort of configuration to let you see animals coming, and around curves. Best of luck and please keep us posted.

[Scheinwerfermann]

Also, with the setup as mocked up in cardboard, I'd be concerned about almost completely blocking off airflow through the grill. Engine cooling (and A/C performance) may suffer badly.

[Alaric Darconville]

Also, with the setup as mocked up in cardboard, I'd be concerned about almost completely blocking off airflow through the grill. Engine cooling (and A/C performance) may suffer badly.

And probably in heavy stop-and-go traffic, when you'd like better A/C performance than an easy cruise down the highway.

[LeanBurn]

Any considerations for lamps that might fit in the blocked stock locations?

[Cadchris]

I definitely have to agree with these guys on air obstruction.

Have you ever seen "your mock-up lighting configuration" done before on a street/off road car, or rally Forester?

If so, any possibility finding out if they had any air flow problems (A/C performance or overheating at highway speeds).....or if they did other mods. to resolve the air-flow restriction like hood extractors or higher output electric fans??????

I've spent a while doing Google Image Searches on "Forester Offroad Ralley Lightbars" and will post many of the links in another post if they allow me to. I did just find the closest configuration that you want to do on a Forester from Sweden and they also warn him about engine temps when the weather warms up......maybe try contacting him:
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...lights-106948/

Here's my take on it as I know a lot about air flow dynamics in the HVAC industry and mainly related to hi-rise building construction of how air flows around a structure which causes high and low pressures on the exterior and interior of the structure, but my passion has always been in hi-perf. car mods and tuning so in this instance, this theory would apply.

Here's the technical explanation of what I believe could occur and be a problem:

At idle or light cruise you won't have any problems with overheating or air flow past the A/C Condenser since the ECM will ramp-up the fans (if that's how Suburu works) to control your electric fans. But at 10mph/16kph ++++ things will change quickly as you will start to loose all ram air flow into the front of the upper grill opening where the electric fans can't compensate for the loss of ram air velocity since the OEM aerodynamics has been changed by the obstruction of the very large mass of the new light housings....

I believe with that large mass of lights on the front bumper it will definitely cause problems but could be verified with a manometer like my Dwyer Digital Manometer #475 or any cheap "analogue differential manometer" would work where you would run long 1/4" tubing to measure high/low pressures or + or - differences while driving.......racers do this when modding the front of a race car for aerodynamics.

This is what I think will occur that you should be aware of and consider if no one out there has done the same config. successfully that you want to do and didn't have problems:

1. that large mass will cause a High Pressure bubble in front of all those lights and air will travel around them in the least restrictive path which would be over the top of the housings. At slower speeds it will be a turbulent flow then linear flow as speed increases. Have you ever seen video of how they demonstrate a cars aerodynamics in a wind tunnel with a smoke wand.....pretty cool.

2. You will probably then develop a low pressure center behind the lights which will most like start to cause a "venturi effect" extracting/suck air out from behind the grill.

3. Since the only unobstructed air you will have is going through the lower unobstructed grill; the high pressure air will be more than it used to be in that area because there is now a low pressure behind the upper grill and you will literally start to get high velocity of air going through the lower opening, and coming out the upper grill and over the hood. The faster you go, the more velocity you'll have and the higher the pressure, until you will eventually start pulling/sucking air under this vacuum through the front radiator and a/c condenser which will be a reversion of air flow....I'm pretty sure it could happen.

4. You would need to somehow overcome this reversion by installing hood extractor vents to allow the ram air from the lower grill intake along with the cooling fans to move air back through this area and hopefully the hood vents if placed properly in a low pressure section of the hood, will extract air out restoring air flow through the rad. and a/c condenser. Although, even at high way speeds, there maybe so much velocity through the lower grill and out the upper grill, the hood vent could exasperate the problem and create more of a reversion with negative pressure and suck air instead of extracting and venting the air from the under the hood where high pressure should build.

But you are in the right place asking about lighting from the lighting experts like Scheinwerfermann, Alaric Darconville and others as I'm also needing their help on a lighting project for my Cadillac's.

I'll post all the links in another post of different light bars on Foresters. Many of the links are from the massive forum called "Subaru Forester Org." where they have 34.pgs on the "Official Aux Lighting Thread".

But who knows if they know what they're talking about with lights and I'd stick with these guys here for their expert knowledge and that forum for at least ideas and pictures!

Regards,
Chris

[Cadchris]

Well, I did post a bunch of links that would've really helped "Echo63" with many options and ideas but the whole post was removed......I guess it was a major violation of the forum.......who ever removed it, can you please PM me with all that info and/or send it on to "Echo63" since it took a lot of effort to put that together?

I just finished one of those threads that had internal links to another.....and so on..... which may have been very valuable to this guy for ideas to his lighting solution.

Regards,
Chris

[NFT5]

Echo63, I recommend you choose pencil beams for the 4000's and spread for the compacts. The full size 4000's give a longer range than the compacts while the performance in spread beam configuration is quite similar. With this arrangement you should get solid punch down the middle and good spread out to around 300m. Almost perfect, really. I'd love to have the room to be able to do the same on mine but the bullbar gets in the way.

On the subject of air flow/restriction I have a full steel bullbar, with winch on the front of my current vehicle and two large driving lights plus winch controller sitting on top. I was a little concerned that all this would block the air flow and monitored temperatures closely for some time after fitting. There was not the slightest change from standard.

In the past I had this:


Those lights take up all the space in front of the grille. Same thing - absolutely no problems with engine temperatures or a/c performance. As I understand, on most modern cars most of the airflow to the radiator goes through the lower grille so some blockage in front of the upper one doesn't cause any drama

[Hilldweller]

I vote for the Rallye 4000 with the Eurobeam (driving light). I've seen them on countless on/offroad machines and the durability is decent and light pattern is fantastic.
I like the Compact 4000 HID too but only for serious offroad stuff. They don't come on to full brightness fast enough to be good driving lights and they're spendy.
I also like the Super Oscar but they're also a little more expensive.

[Echo63]

Thanks for the responses everyone, i will try to respond to them all

If you have to worry about animals crossing the roads, I would consider the side spill. Maybe the pencil beams wouldn't be as useful as a light with a wide area of illumination to the sides. I personally would set 2 lamps to project as far down the road as your speed would dictate, then set the other 2 up in some sort of configuration to let you see animals coming, and around curves. Best of luck and please keep us posted.

That was the idea of the Hella4000 in a Cornering pattern, it only throws 200ish metres, but throws a lot of light to the sides, basically 45 degrees to both sides
what i was considering was the full size 4000s in a cornering and driving pattern, and a pair of compacts as pencil beams, switched separately for when i am in twisty areas and dont need the reach of the pencil beams

Also, with the setup as mocked up in cardboard, I'd be concerned about almost completely blocking off airflow through the grill. Engine cooling (and A/C performance) may suffer badly.

I didnt think of that - although having the bar easily removeable would allow me to remove it to A. Prevent theft, and B. remove it when i dont need it and stop it from blocking the air intakes - i may wind up inverting the little lights on the ends, just to open up the grill area a bit if neccesary

And probably in heavy stop-and-go traffic, when you'd like better A/C performance than an easy cruise down the highway.

more worried about the engine overheating and leaving me stranded than the Airconditioning, but it is nice to have it working properly

Any considerations for lamps that might fit in the blocked stock locations?

i feel they would sit to low, they are really designed for Fog Lights, which shine "under" the fog, driving lights are better mounted as high as possible, to shine down the road, rather than create shadows in dips and bumps

I definitely have to agree with these guys on air obstruction.

Have you ever seen "your mock-up lighting configuration" done before on a street/off road car, or rally Forester?

If so, any possibility finding out if they had any air flow problems (A/C performance or overheating at highway speeds).....or if they did other mods. to resolve the air-flow restriction like hood extractors or higher output electric fans??????

I've spent a while doing Google Image Searches on "Forester Offroad Ralley Lightbars" and will post many of the links in another post if they allow me to. I did just find the closest configuration that you want to do on a Forester from Sweden and they also warn him about engine temps when the weather warms up......maybe try contacting him:
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...lights-106948/

Here's my take on it as I know a lot about air flow dynamics in the HVAC industry and mainly related to hi-rise building construction of how air flows around a structure which causes high and low pressures on the exterior and interior of the structure, but my passion has always been in hi-perf. car mods and tuning so in this instance, this theory would apply.

Here's the technical explanation of what I believe could occur and be a problem:

At idle or light cruise you won't have any problems with overheating or air flow past the A/C Condenser since the ECM will ramp-up the fans (if that's how Suburu works) to control your electric fans. But at 10mph/16kph ++++ things will change quickly as you will start to loose all ram air flow into the front of the upper grill opening where the electric fans can't compensate for the loss of ram air velocity since the OEM aerodynamics has been changed by the obstruction of the very large mass of the new light housings....

I believe with that large mass of lights on the front bumper it will definitely cause problems but could be verified with a manometer like my Dwyer Digital Manometer #475 or any cheap "analogue differential manometer" would work where you would run long 1/4" tubing to measure high/low pressures or + or - differences while driving.......racers do this when modding the front of a race car for aerodynamics.

This is what I think will occur that you should be aware of and consider if no one out there has done the same config. successfully that you want to do and didn't have problems:

1. that large mass will cause a High Pressure bubble in front of all those lights and air will travel around them in the least restrictive path which would be over the top of the housings. At slower speeds it will be a turbulent flow then linear flow as speed increases. Have you ever seen video of how they demonstrate a cars aerodynamics in a wind tunnel with a smoke wand.....pretty cool.

2. You will probably then develop a low pressure center behind the lights which will most like start to cause a "venturi effect" extracting/suck air out from behind the grill.

3. Since the only unobstructed air you will have is going through the lower unobstructed grill; the high pressure air will be more than it used to be in that area because there is now a low pressure behind the upper grill and you will literally start to get high velocity of air going through the lower opening, and coming out the upper grill and over the hood. The faster you go, the more velocity you'll have and the higher the pressure, until you will eventually start pulling/sucking air under this vacuum through the front radiator and a/c condenser which will be a reversion of air flow....I'm pretty sure it could happen.

4. You would need to somehow overcome this reversion by installing hood extractor vents to allow the ram air from the lower grill intake along with the cooling fans to move air back through this area and hopefully the hood vents if placed properly in a low pressure section of the hood, will extract air out restoring air flow through the rad. and a/c condenser. Although, even at high way speeds, there maybe so much velocity through the lower grill and out the upper grill, the hood vent could exasperate the problem and create more of a reversion with negative pressure and suck air instead of extracting and venting the air from the under the hood where high pressure should build.

But you are in the right place asking about lighting from the lighting experts like Scheinwerfermann, Alaric Darconville and others as I'm also needing their help on a lighting project for my Cadillac's.

I'll post all the links in another post of different light bars on Foresters. Many of the links are from the massive forum called "Subaru Forester Org." where they have 34.pgs on the "Official Aux Lighting Thread".

But who knows if they know what they're talking about with lights and I'd stick with these guys here for their expert knowledge and that forum for at least ideas and pictures!

Regards,
Chris

CadChris - i haven't seen a similar setup on another forester, but have seen large hellas on a number of local Rally cars, although i havent paid too much attention to if its blocking the upper air intakes
My Previous Car (a Hyundai Excel) had a pair of Hella Comet 550 lights that blocked most of the upper intake, and i didnt have any heat issues, but these lights are a bit bigger, and the air intake on the forester is much larger

i have messaged the one place that is rallying an SH forester (the current shape) - they are just running led lightbars, but their lighting needs are different to mine (they typically run on a tight spectator stage at night, which doesnt really need long distance lighting)

thank you for digging up a bunch of links, they were removed before i got a chance to see them, but i have spent a lot of time looking through Subaruforester.org and their lighting threads. most of the information there deals with the older foresters (and there isnt many mounting options available for the newer SH models)

I have also asked the guy you linked to if he is having any overheating problems, although his summer temperatures are probably a lot lower than where i live.
There is another thread i will have ask in too, someone who has a setup similar to my intended setup

i will speak to the local subaru specific mechanic too, they might have an idea on if i will have any heat/airflow issues

Echo63, I recommend you choose pencil beams for the 4000's and spread for the compacts. The full size 4000's give a longer range than the compacts while the performance in spread beam configuration is quite similar. With this arrangement you should get solid punch down the middle and good spread out to around 300m. Almost perfect, really. I'd love to have the room to be able to do the same on mine but the bullbar gets in the way.

On the subject of air flow/restriction I have a full steel bullbar, with winch on the front of my current vehicle and two large driving lights plus winch controller sitting on top. I was a little concerned that all this would block the air flow and monitored temperatures closely for some time after fitting. There was not the slightest change from standard.

In the past I had this:


Those lights take up all the space in front of the grille. Same thing - absolutely no problems with engine temperatures or a/c performance. As I understand, on most modern cars most of the airflow to the radiator goes through the lower grille so some blockage in front of the upper one doesn't cause any drama

Hella dont make the Cornering pattern in the Compact (or it would be really simple, i would just have 4x Compacts across the front)
good to hear about you not having overheating issues with the Pajero, or your current car, if i do put 4 lights like in the mockup, i will have to watch the temperature gauge closely for a while, and possibly invert the two end ones.

I vote for the Rallye 4000 with the Eurobeam (driving light). I've seen them on countless on/offroad machines and the durability is decent and light pattern is fantastic.
I like the Compact 4000 HID too but only for serious offroad stuff. They don't come on to full brightness fast enough to be good driving lights and they're spendy.
I also like the Super Oscar but they're also a little more expensive.

I cant afford HID lights, i can get a set of 4 halogens for a little over the price of one HID
for the roads i drive on i will have to turn the lights on and off a bit, which i believe is bad for HID (they are great for Rally lights though, where they are fired up at the beginning of a stage and left on until the end of stage)
my parents have had the same set of Cibie Oscars on at least 3 cars, and they are still in pretty good condition for being over 30 years old, but i havent really seen them lit up. i do prefer the look of the Hellas though


Thanks for all the help everyone - i will get the bar built first, with 4 extra tabs on the bottom so i can invert the lights if i have too, then fit the lights and keep an eye on the temperatures

[Hilldweller]

Hey, as long as you're still thinking, reach out to my friend E.J. (Josh) in Atlanta. He's a Subaru-head and gets more out of his Subie than the average owner...
http://www.expeditionportal.com/foru...-Build-for-E-J

[Cadchris]

Hi Echo63,

Norm the Administrator was kind enough to send me those links I put together for you of the different light bars so I could forward them on to you. There are some great ideas and even some "builds" of different light-bars.

Just in case you get hit up for those links by other's in the future looking for them, please pass the info along......we don't want to keep any future Forester Owners in the dark who may stumble onto this thread looking for those links and ideas.

Maybe ask the Mod. or Admin. if you can re-title this thread so other Forester Owners can maybe get a hit on it.

Let us all know what you finally did or any progress you made.

Regards,
Chris

[Cadchris]

Hey Echo63.......

I just PM'd you again with 2 more links I saved and just found in my favorites/bookmarks to "Stealth Light Bar Builds" for Subaru Foresters.

They're interesting builds, but maybe not as substantial in lighting that your looking for......at least no one can get to those lights if you park "in the bad side of town" down there!

My friend stationed in the Melbourne U.S. Consulate said its like the 1950's U.S. there, and no criminal activity where people don't lock their doors, which I find hard to believe but from your concerns, looks like they steal light bars with nice lights!

If you like the setup, maybe PM those guys on that forum to see if they have cooling problems with those "Stealthy Light-Bar Setups"........

Regards,
Chris

[Echo63]

Hey Echo63.......

I just PM'd you again with 2 more links I saved and just found in my favorites/bookmarks to "Stealth Light Bar Builds" for Subaru Foresters.

They're interesting builds, but maybe not as substantial in lighting that your looking for......at least no one can get to those lights if you park "in the bad side of town" down there!

My friend stationed in the Melbourne U.S. Consulate said its like the 1950's U.S. there, and no criminal activity where people don't lock their doors, which I find hard to believe but from your concerns, looks like they steal light bars with nice lights!

If you like the setup, maybe PM those guys on that forum to see if they have cooling problems with those "Stealthy Light-Bar Setups"........

Regards,
Chris

Thanks Chris, I responded via PM

Its not that im in a bad part of town, but i do ocassionally park the car in some dodgy areas, and its not uncommon to see people driving around with one lightforce 240, or just a set of mounting arms (probably where people have just spun a set of nice shiny new reflectors of someones car, to replace their fogged up ones)

I do live in a fairly large city though, and I certainly lock my doors when i leave home (and when i am home too) although some little country towns have little crime (the crime in the city isnt that bad, but there is some areas where the crime rate is higher than others)

the main reason i want a removeable light bar, is simply so i can remove it when im not using it, its not needed in the city, where i do most of my driving, but i do want the big lights for when i do a trip out into the country.