3400mAh Panasonic NCR18650B

[Shadowww]

cnqualitygoods 1 piece of Panasonic NCR 18650 3400mAh Li-on unprotected battery

3400mAh / 4.35V.
Interesting.

Please Do Not link directly to sales sites - Norm

[gopajti]

wohoo thanks! Very interesting

[Changchung]

Wow... Great news... Thanks

[space-cowboy]

cnqualitygoods 1 piece of Panasonic NCR 18650 3400mAh Li-on unprotected battery

3400mAh / 4.35V.
Interesting.

Please Do Not link directly to sales sites - Norm

3400mAh - yes

4.35V - no

NCR18650B

[bshanahan14rulz]

space-cowboy: why not?

[space-cowboy]

space-cowboy: why not?

Because NCR18650B is 4.2V batt.

and must say performs really good.

[Shadowww]

Hm, that's even better than expected, 3400mAh without need for a special charger :O

[space-cowboy]

Yep,

It is same as NCR18650A, but they "played" with enhanced nickel.

I am not a chemist,

but would like to work for free with Panasonic R&D

[Shadowww]

Are there datasheets for it (the NCR18650B) available somewhere, by the way?

[space-cowboy]

Not, for public as I know. Only internal documents.

Soon

[tobrien]

so how much of a runtime difference will we typically see between a 3400 mAh and a 3100 mAh cell (all things being equal?)?

[bshanahan14rulz]

mmm, I like that much better! I liked how the A version had increased capacity at 4.2V charge, but I disliked how many cycles the extra capacity apparently lasted for, but then again, I'm only going off of user reports. At the time, the "NNP" they were boasting was still pretty new, I bet they are working on improving robustness in that layer to improve cycle count. I will probably work in a couple of new technology cells for myself for Christmas :-)

and never offer to work for free. At least request ramen ;-)

[HKJ]

so how much of a runtime difference will we typically see between a 3400 mAh and a 3100 mAh cell (all things being equal?)?

Probably about a 10% increase.

[loutsopo]

Hm, that's even better than expected, 3400mAh without need for a special charger :O

I think that i will use some defective chargers that i have where stop at 4.4V with these batteries.

[Owen]

Probably about a 10% increase.

Why would you think that?

[45/70]

Probably about a 10% increase.

Nah. If the capacities are correct, I would think the 3400mAh cell would only have about a 9.7% advantage over the 3100mAh cell, maybe a bit less.

Seriously, I think a lot of confusion stems around the fact that some folks do not understand that the mAh capacity of a cell is essentially how much stored energy potential a cell has at a specific discharge rate, and is not necessarily relevant to how much power a cell can deliver. For example, a 1500-1600mAh IMR cell has about 2-3 times the power (Watt) potential of a 3100mAh LiNiCo cell. It just doesn't store as much energy.

The same is true when comparing high discharge rate NiMh cells with conventional NiMh cells. High discharge rate cells usually have a lower mAh capacity, but can deliver more power, however they don't store as much total energy. It depends on the particular application as to whether a light will run brighter, or longer, and which type cell is essentially "better" for that particular application.

Dave

[kaabob]

I got an email from Orbtronic -- they said they're going to have this in stock soon!
Yay for domestic shipping!

Hi,

New Panasonic 3400mAh should be here soon.

I hope this is good news.


Sincerely

Sal

ORBTRONICExtreme Electronicswww.orbtronic.cominfo@orbtronic.com Skype: support150

[HKJ]

When you start looking at what a battery can do, you also need to look at what the light need, with many single cell lights the battery voltage is very important for brightness. This is related to power delivery, but is not the same.

[tobrien]

I got an email from Orbtronic -- they said they're going to have this in stock soon!
Yay for domestic shipping!

hopefully they price it competitively like their 3100 mAh cells used to be

edit: disregard this, it looks like their prices are back to normal. they had been going up for a bit though

[45/70]

Very true, HKJ. This is the reason that for me and my applications, I favor the Samsung 30A and LG 4.35 Volt cells over the Panasonic 4.20 Volt cells. I must say I was a bit disappointed that these new "B" cells are actually 4.20 Volts. I really need the extra voltage available under load. Also, the capacity below 3.00 Volts (under load), of any of these cells, doesn't do me any good.

Dave

[Mooreshire]

Very exciting news about the 3400mAh technology announcement.

As for Orbtronic, the key is to wait and watch. Even the Amazon price for a pair of 2900mAh cells direct from them has fluctuated nearly 100% over the last two weeks (I just scored four cells for $24, suddenly that is less than the price for only two - same amazon listing, ten days apart)!

[tobrien]

Very true, HKJ. This is the reason that for me and my applications, I favor the Samsung 30A and LG 4.35 Volt cells over the Panasonic 4.20 Volt cells. I must say I was a bit disappointed that these new "B" cells are actually 4.20 Volts. I really need the extra voltage available under load. Also, the capacity below 3.00 Volts (under load), of any of these cells, doesn't do me any good.

Dave

wait, so having a higher voltage rated battery, like a 4.35v ones, is better and perhaps yields more voltage available to the emitter when under load and at a lower capacity left in the cell? am I correct? does it matter if you only charged a 4.35v cell to 4.2 volts on a standard li-ion charger?

Very exciting news about the 3400mAh technology announcement.

As for Orbtronic, the key is to wait and watch. Even the Amazon price for a pair of 2900mAh cells direct from them has fluctuated nearly 100% over the last two weeks (I just scored four cells for $24, suddenly that is less than the price for only two - same amazon listing, ten days apart)!

that's a good point

[HKJ]

wait, so having a higher voltage rated battery, like a 4.35v ones, is better and perhaps yields more voltage available to the emitter when under load and at a lower capacity left in the cell? am I correct? does it matter if you only charged a 4.35v cell to 4.2 volts on a standard li-ion charger?

Using my battery comparator you can easily find the answer to these questions.

Here is a comparison between 4.35 and 4.2 volt charge voltage, as you can see the 4.2 volt charge has lower voltage and less capacity.

[tobrien]

Using my battery comparator you can easily find the answer to these questions.

Here is a comparison between 4.35 and 4.2 volt charge voltage, as you can see the 4.2 volt charge has lower voltage and less capacity.

thanks buddy!

so since the 4.35 volt batteries would be used without a protection circuit and so on, should i stop using them in a light sooner (i.e.: at a higher resting voltage) than a 4.20 volt battery would normally stop at?

[HKJ]

thanks buddy!

so since the 4.35 volt batteries would be used without a protection circuit and so on, should i stop using them in a light sooner (i.e.: at a higher resting voltage) than a 4.20 volt battery would normally stop at?

This depends on the battery, you can get batteries with 4.2 volt charging that can be discharger to 2.5, 2.8 and 3 volt. I do not have the data sheet for the LG cell, but I would say stop at 3 volt. This stop is when drawing current, I cannot tell what the resting voltage is.

[45/70]

wait, so having a higher voltage rated battery, like a 4.35v ones, is better and perhaps yields more voltage available to the emitter when under load and at a lower capacity left in the cell? am I correct? does it matter if you only charged a 4.35v cell to 4.2 volts on a standard li-ion charger?

Hi tobrien. I think HKJ pretty much covered your questions. It's not so much the available voltage to the emitter, this is controlled by the driver limiting the current. It is the available voltage to the driver itself that is the problem.

For example, my primary interest regarding voltage held under load, relates to download's 8th run Pocket Rocket. This light draws close to 3A on high. It is also one of, I believe, only two lights made, with a driver that has a low voltage warning that kicks in at ~3 Volts.

To make matters worse, the light body is made from titanium, which is a poor electrical conductor. I've done a tailspring mod, ala M@g, to reduce the resistance in the light's electrical circuit, but still, keeping the voltage as high as possible is important to enable the light to run at the high level, as long as possible. As it is, an IMR 1600mAh cell will run the light almost as long as a 4.35 Volt Samsung 30A cell.

The lower levels are not really affected. In fact, the 30A cell will run the light at medium, or low, for a long time, after the warning kicks in on high, whereas the IMR cell is pretty much "done" at this point. The difference is that the IMR cell holds higher voltage under load, compared to the Samsung 30A, but runs out of steam much sooner, as it is only about half the capacity.

Dave

[Shadowww]

The difference is that the IMR cell holds higher voltage under load, compared to the Samsung 30A, but runs out of steam much sooner, as it is only about half the capacity.

Hey Dave, you should really check out LG 4.35V cells if Samsung ones don't give you any advantage over IMR's.. because they (LG's) will (at 3A current you quoted) :P

[45/70]

Hey Dave, you should really check out LG 4.35V cells......

Yeah, I too have been studying HKJ's charts, and other's for some time now. The LG 4.35 Volt cells do look to be an excellent choice, better than the Samsungs. Thanks for the tip though!

One thing I've noticed, in my own testing, AW's IMR 1600mAh cells fare a bit better at 3A, than in his results. Still there's no way around it, they're still a low capacity solution, even though they work very well. The IMR's OC voltage at the voltage warning point is 3.60-3.65 Volts, whereas the Samsung 30A cells read ~3.80 Volts OC. So, there's no doubt that the IMR cells are quite capable of supplying 3A until the cell is pretty much discharged.

Well, going OT here I guess, my apologies.

Dave

[TEEJ]

I typically want to know how low the cell discharges to before its "too low", and many (Most?) of the higher mAh rated cells got the higher rating by simply being ABLE TO function down to a lower discharge limit.

This is because most of my LIGHTS don't use the cells below ~ 2.9 - 3 v or so...so, they drain them from ~ 4.2v or so down to ~ 3 v, and the light's protection kicks in, and disables high, or whatever...as the cells gets down to the programmed limits of the light.

For the ~ 3v limit lights:

A cell that can only go down to ~ 3 v from 4.2 v, but is rated at 3100 mAh, would be better as far as run time, than a light that was also rated at 3100 mAh, but was rated as being able to drain down to say 2 v, etc.

[bshanahan14rulz]

I think at this point, datasheets are still for ndc signers eyes only :-/