Are we losing the plot?

[peterkin101]

I've been looking to acquire a new torch.

Like a lot of people here,I take more than a passing interest in the subject.

I like the idea of an LED light source, an adjustable beam perhaps,TOUGH, something bright, NOT Solely dependant on CR123A's, maybe with a rechargeable option.

Price isn't too much of an issue. If I decide I like it then I'll find a way to buy it.

I then start searching and one particular model stands out.

The ArmyTek Predator V1.2.

Now I'll probably never be out in an emergency in the situations this torch is built for but my alter ego says I might.

Anyway, I check out its spec and features on the website.

WHAT THE HELL?

Durability,build quality,beam characteristics (though not adjustable) choice of power sources, redundant circuitry....GREAT so far..

Then I delve a bit further.

And there are SO MANY MODES it is totally stupid.

All I want mode wise is full power,half power possibly an SOS and a strobe mode to get me out of any potential bother.

Why the hell would I ever or ( I imagine) 95% of users ever want with a three stabilisation modes, 7 custom modes and a multitude of other modes is utterly beyond me.

It reminds me of a camera released about 20 odd years ago-the Pentax Z1

A superb machine capable of full blown pro results but THE MODES?

Potentially a photographer half familiar with it could come to grief and another one fully familiar would probably use 2 out the dozens on offer.

Modes for the sake of it?

ArmyTek are by no means the only culprits.

Manufacturers need to get back to basics.

And if their customers HAVE to have a multitude of modes then maybe modes via a micro USB and a Laptop etc is the answer.

For the rest of us it is gilding the lily and a completely unnecessary option.

[John_Galt]

Well, I'm pretty sure you could take some time to program the ArmyTek to function just as you want, just like the others who purchase it.

That's why people purchase programmable lights: so that the light can be tailored to fit their needs, even as their needs change. I'm not saying your opinion is invalid, but others out there have differing wants and needs from yours. I personally have liked the programmable lights I've owned [my current HDS 140n and my HDS EDC B42XR], as they give me the option to "work" as well as play.

Besides, the idea of micro USB programmed lights has come up often before, and the base problem is: not everyone has a laptop, cords are easily lost, and if you need to program it again "in the field" [or even just away from the computer] then you're SOL, water-resistance is a problem, if the port is externally located, and if the port is damaged, then you have a once-programmable partially disabled light. So the idea pops up, gains some minor traction, and dies off, once the problems are rehashed.

Also, on the whole "back to basics" comment. Manufacturers do not need to do this, until they notice their market share falling off as a result of their inability to forecast what the market wants or needs. People like lights that can be tailored to their specific and wide-ranging needs. If they make the light too difficult to program, sites like this [which I have no doubt they monitor closely] and user-reviews, as well as customer emails will tell them there is a problem. To us your example of a n overly-complicated camera: is that camera sold any longer [I honestly have no idea]? Based upon the "problems" you expressed about it, I would daresay it is not. A perfect example of the market telling a manufacturer where they went wrong, and then steps being taken to correct it.

[yellow]

there are enough models to fit anyones "needs", so ...

PS: three modes because:
1st: ultralow - for navigating / reading in dark
2nd: "useable" - say - 30-40 % of max, for normal chores and to save energy
3rd: max, ... whatever max is (85-110 % of possible power to the led)


three level programmable --> jetbeam IMS, when it has been done in their lights --> perfect

[Cataract]

The whole point of the Predator is to let you customize 100% your modes and regulation type. You can even make it a single output flashlight if you want. It took me about a week to figure out how I wanted mine programmed and now I don't need to changeanything anymore.

[Lichtinsdunkel]

Me too. It took me a few days to understand all the possibilities of this flashlight, but I think it's really great!. Never seen a light before where you can customize so much.
But another good thing is that you can use it "out of the box" without using all the customizing features, although this is not the main intention of this light.

[zenbeam]

I may not have any statistical evidence, but I have a sense of lower confidence in the overall reliability of various electronic gadgets (such as cameras and flashlights and the like) that have an overabundance of modes versus those that are more simple in design and offerings. I suppose I get this feeling from the idea that mechanical devices with fewer moving parts have less that can go wrong and are therefore typically more reliable.

I suppose what constitutes an "overabundance" is a matter of opinion.

[peterkin101]

To us your example of a n overly-complicated camera: is that camera sold any longer [I honestly have no idea]? Based upon the "problems" you expressed about it, I would daresay it is not. A perfect example of the market telling a manufacturer where they went wrong, and then steps being taken to correct it.

A fair point but sadly the industry is slow to react to trends.

OK just for info, the Pentax Z1 was a 35mm SLR, slightly updated with the Z1-P in about 1993/4 then the more pro orientated but still complex MZ-S back in 1999.

The thing which stopped this lunacy dead in its tracks wasn't the market as such.

The competitors ie Nikon, Minolta etc were making complex cameras as well.

The lunacy of it all was stopped by default-another camera format altogether...DIGITAL.

And in a roundabout way cameras got simpler to use all over again.

Thinking about it a Micro USB would have to be inside the body of the torch-no good having a leak prone socket anywhere on the exterior.

Even so I'm still searching for the simpler option.

Anybody any ideas?

Budget up to $200,simple quality build and beam wearable on a belt,NOT a searchlight with a 2kw electric fire thrown in.

Cheers!

[TEEJ]

I have no problem with a light with more modes than I need, as long as the list INCLUDES modes that I need.

The Zebralight SC600 is a good example of a light of mine that has maybe a dozen modes, memory, can be programmed to use selected modes/come on at specific brightnesses, etc....

...and I use NONE of it. I mostly use it on high...and it comes on at whatever it was on last, in this case, typically, high.

If I want to change it, I can hold the button down, and it scrolls from H to M to L, and back to H...I just let go when it gets to the one I want. For a tent/low light scenario, I make sure its on low when I turn it off...so it won't come on in high in the tent, etc.

I have other lights for tactical use, so a light that scrolls to what I want is OK in this case. It works as a basic H - M L light out of the box, which is fine for me.


I also have a Nitecore TM11 that I'm never quite sure if I'm in High or Turbo, I never remember the sequence of clicks to go there....I keep clicking until its looks brighter than the other clicks did, and figure if it can't get any brighter, it must be in Turbo.



I like a simple UI, I don't want to add things to remember...I handle too much equipment to keep it all straight as is. I'm fine with the moral equivalent of a 30 speed bike that I use 1st, 7th, 20th and 30th gear on.


I know that if I NEED to fine tune a particular light, I can.....if I get out the manual. In real life, I'd be more likely to grab a light that has what I need to start with, rather than MAKE another light morph into the role.

[Dr Jekell]

All I want mode wise is full power,half power possibly an SOS and a strobe mode to get me out of any potential bother.

Why the hell would I ever or ( I imagine) 95% of users ever want with a three stabilization modes, 7 custom modes and a multitude of other modes is utterly beyond me.

They have other models not just the original model:

[fyrstormer]

That's why I like control-ring lights. I leave my Jetbeam TC-R2 on high-mode all the time, and I turn it down when I need less light. No fiddling with modes.

If you prefer pre-set modes, though, the McGizmo Haiku is basically impossible to beat. You have low, medium, and high, with last-mode memory, using a forward-clicky switch that allows momentary-on with a light press on the switch, all in an indestructible titanium case. Seriously, someone salvaged their Haiku from the ashes of their house and sent it back to McGizmo for a new switch and light engine. The titanium shell was totally salvageable.

[LGT]

I guess if you don't want a light with the UI of the ArmyTek, then something else should be looked at. But it is a really nice light that can be programmed to the modes you are looking for. There are also plenty of manufacturers that produce "basic" lights. It took a few hours to get my Predator programmed to where I want it, but, IMO, it was worth the work it took.

[Sub_Umbra]

If you think a light has too many modes it's a sure sigh that the UI sucks. If the light's UI didn't suck the aforementioned modes would never get in the way.

The Photon Freedom is a great example. The PF has many modes that most users NEVER use but they don't get in the way because the UI is designed so well. The PF's UI is so good that in spite of the fact that is is my most switched on light I've never accidentally went into strobe mode.

If you don't like all the modes BLAME THE LIGHT'S CRAPPY UI.

[TEEJ]

If you think a light has too many modes it's a sure sigh that the UI sucks. If the light's UI didn't suck the aforementioned modes would never get in the way.

The Photon Freedom is a great example. The PF has many modes that most users NEVER use but they don't get in the wat because the UI is designed so well. The PF's UI is so good that inspite of the fact that is is my most switched on light I've never accidentally went into strobe mode.

If you don't like the modes BLAME THE LIGHT'S UI.

Very true.

I think its like a car being available with a manual transmission, or, an automatic.

The people who get one or the other have their UI preferences...and, its not that one group is "wrong", its just that the UI is wrong for the OTHER group, etc.

The trick in understanding WHY one group WANTS to have to shift, and the OTHER group doesn't..is the key to understanding WHY one group LIKES a light with a set of UI features, when YOU don't.

Its possible to get it...but, for most people, it doesn't come naturally.

[ElectronGuru]

The trick in understanding WHY one group WANTS to have to shift, and the OTHER group doesn't..is the key to understanding WHY one group LIKES a light with a set of UI features, when YOU don't.

Another way to put that: One group sees shifting as a chore, the other as liberation. I for one find automatic transmissions as being unable to effectively time their own shifts. When driving one, I'm forever trying to override it - you're upshifting to soon and why won't you downshift already

In both cases (cars and flashlights) its about control. And sometimes more control requires less technology (and fewer options).

[fyrstormer]

My dad's Mazda Miata has the best automatic transmission ever. As best I can tell, it notices when the driver is getting twitchy with the pedals and the steering wheel, and it stays in a lower gear longer, just like a stickshift driver would. At the same time, though, it has paddle-shifters to let the driver shift for themselves when necessary, and it can start from a stop in 2nd gear, which came in very handy for him when driving home in unexpected snow.

My Mazda RX-8 has a manual transmission, and while it can do some nifty things like revving as high as I need before closing the clutch (useful on hills, of course), there are times in heavy traffic when I wish it could shift itself. It has a heavy, grippy clutch and a gearbox that needs to be shifted like I'm racing in the Le Mans for the synchronizers to work right. I love the 9000rpm engine, though, and apparently there is no automatic transmission that can handle RPMs that high.

I guess my point is, even if you find a solution that is perfectly-centered around your needs, the performance envelope will still have limits, and there will still be tradeoffs that impose limitations on you during "edge scenarios" when you have to deal with unusual circumstances.

[Gryffin]

I think its like a car being available with a manual transmission, or, an automatic. …

Another way to put that: One group sees shifting as a chore, the other as liberation. …

My dad's Mazda Miata has the best automatic transmission ever. ….

Speaking of "losing the plot," guys, I thought we were discussing flashlights?

[TEEJ]

Speaking of "losing the plot," guys, I thought we were discussing flashlights?

We are. We are simply shifted into metaphorical mode now.

[Machete God]

... shifted into...

I see what you did there...

[ElectronGuru]

We are. We are simply shifted into metaphorical mode now.

And its a good one, revealing...

and it can start from a stop in 2nd gear, which came in very handy for him when driving home in unexpected snow.

... layers to complexities of this subject. In this case, the importance of context.

The perfect flashlight when you have time to dial in a specific output will fall short when you have seconds (and only one hand) to get something lit up. And visa versa.

[Illum]

This is just a personal opinion but...

I think LED flashlights have hit a dead end, new designs are coming out such as true flood and angle lights and those are nice at developing new markets. However, the conventional design of a handheld flashlight have been somewhat stagnant for the last couple years due to the proliferation of variety and the vast satisfaction of the need. Just about all the possible combinations of optics and reflectors have been assessed and the only differentiation appears to be battery combination and intensity. Intensity then deals with drivers and here somes a practical problem. An increase in features comes with a decrease in efficacy. Back when our lights have one or two modes at best, we learn how to compensate for its deficiency in ways that would not affect its normal use. This allows the light to be used by anyone for anything without prior knowledge of its functions. Now comes driver boards with 16 modes and programmable intensities. Sure, on paper it sounds fantastic, it would seem obvious that such technology will rapidly replace "dumb" lights due to their versatility. But this simply isn't the case, at least for me. If I have only moments, the light I'll grab most definitely will not be the 3 mode with memory light but the light that clicks on and thats it.
New lights no longer brings out the surprise and anticipation out of me. If it weren't for a new LED, I'm sure it probably would not have been created to replace its brothers. Thats why I still carry an SF L4 as an EDC, single mode, bright, clicks n, click off, thats the way its been, and will always be the way it should be.

[TEEJ]

LOL

And no one will ever need more than 64 mb of ram.




I still think UI is the critical concept.

If things are too HARD to use, with too steep a learning curve to be WORTH climbing the slope, people will not bother, and the features will be wasted.

If the light can be used in a "default mode", the ZL SC600 being an example of that...I use high and low on it pretty much. It HAS ~ dozen modes I think, but there's clicks and sequences to use them, and, frankly, I have a lot of lights in my bag, I don't need to pull out a 9 iron, and hit buttons until its a 12 iron, I'd just pull the 12 iron.



The ZL has an easy default mode though...hit the switch, and it comes on where it was last...hold it down, and it cycles from there to the NEXT brightness, in a H-M-L pattern...and I can just let go of the button when its "at my stop".

So, it works for me....even though it has stuff I don't use.


For lights, mostly, I don't want to scroll to get what I want...I want it to BE what I want. A control ring is acceptable for lights I can access it when USING IT...but, not for lights I'm hanging from a ladder while using, etc.


The paradigm used for UI on many lights is too clunky and complicated. Klarus's 2 buttons is perfect for my edc light, as I WANT that light to only come on in high...and let me adjust from there...and the clicks from there are simple and straight forward, no "sequence to remember".

The same UI that is SO perfect for the edc is terrible for around the campsite if I don't want a blast of light to wake people though, so, I need ANOTHER UI for that scenario...with a low low of course.

And so forth.


I have no problem with a light adding capabilities if reliability, etc, is great. I just won't USE THEM unless I don't have to memorize launch codes to access them.

If I had one or two lights, I might be ABLE to remember that sort of thing...but, I um, have more than 1-2 lights.


So, yeah, for me at least...I just carry more clubs in my bag, knowing exactly what each does for me...and if my 9 iron CAN turn into a 7 iron or a 12 iron or a putter, fine, as long as DOING THAT is easier than grabbing the other club to start with.

[fishndad]

(So, yeah, for me at least...I just carry more clubs in my bag, knowing exactly what each does for me...and if my 9 iron CAN turn into a 7 iron or a 12 iron or a putter, fine, as long as DOING THAT is easier than grabbing the other club to start with.)


You could said lures in my tackle box then i might have understood your analogy.Thanks TEEJ

[Machete God]

... and with that the analogy swings to golf...

[Cataract]

(So, yeah, for me at least...I just carry more clubs in my bag, knowing exactly what each does for me...and if my 9 iron CAN turn into a 7 iron or a 12 iron or a putter, fine, as long as DOING THAT is easier than grabbing the other club to start with.)

You could said lures in my tackle box then i might have understood your analogy.Thanks TEEJ

Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you want different beam profile, sometimes you're too lazy or too far to get another light, so we have multiple modes. That's why we have many lights. Comparing them to golf clubs is nice, but I keep mine in a tackle box so it fits in the car trunk.

[fyrstormer]

I still think UI is the critical concept.

Of course the UI is the critical concept. Without the UI, every flashlight ever made is just a tube with batteries inside and a lightbulb at one end that runs continuously until the batteries are dead. The UI is what makes it a tool instead of a science experiment.

[zenbeam]

If the light can be used in a "default mode", the ZL SC600 being an example of that...I use high and low on it pretty much. It HAS ~ dozen modes I think, but there's clicks and sequences to use them, and, frankly, I have a lot of lights in my bag, I don't need to pull out a 9 iron, and hit buttons until its a 12 iron, I'd just pull the 12 iron.



The ZL has an easy default mode though...hit the switch, and it comes on where it was last...hold it down, and it cycles from there to the NEXT brightness, in a H-M-L pattern...and I can just let go of the button when its "at my stop".

My ZL SC600 is slightly different? I would say that maybe something is wrong with it, but the descriptions in the manual match the actions exactly.

From off:

- quick press button / light comes on in hi mode (whichever of two hi mode choices you left it in last)
- slightly longer press button / light comes on in lo mode (whichever of two lo mode choices you left it in last)

Cycling (whether the light is on or off):

- hold button / light cycles through lo, med, hi (always starting cycling itself at lo mode - no matter what mode it was in prior) until you "let go" and then yes, it stays at the mode where you "let go" of the button. And while cycling, each mode emits at the last selected brightness for that mode.



It is more complicated to put it in words than to actually operate the light.

Maybe mine is the latest version and has newer, slightly tweaked UI?

As TEEJ said, the modes certainly go deeper and there are multiple clicking sequences and so forth to learn. But overall, the ZL SC600 is a great example of offering the flexibility of complexity while allowing you to settle upon your own choice of simple, immediately accessible options.

Similarly, but much less complex, is the Quark Tactical UI - allowing you to program 2 choices for immediate access (including strobe - at least on my model).

[moozooh]

It is more complicated to put it in words than to actually operate the light.

A sign of a good UI, if anything.

I agree that a basic use of such a simple and commonplace device as a flashlight should be equally simple and intuitive. Disabling some functions outright is not a good answer to that, though, as being simpler doesn't equate to being better. There's a case in point above where somebody says their light always comes on at its highest output, which limits its usefulness in situations where you don't want excessive light. The OP listed four potentially useful modes (for him), at least two of which would be used very sparingly—is a "simple" UI supposed to cycle through them every time? Having a separate button for rarely used modes is not a good idea either because an unprepared person may disturb somebody or dazzle themselves by pressing the wrong button. Having one button with a twister is hard to use with one hand and/or makes the construction less durable and weather-prone. Tailclickies are good for tactical lights but aren't remotely as handy for any other means. I could go on listing these indefinitely.

This is an actual problem—evidently there are no simple answers to it, and most certainly going "back to basics" won't help anything but undermining the usefulness of a flashlight. Designing smart UIs that are easy to use from the get go, yet having enough depth to tune the light to your personal needs, like the mentioned ArmyTeks and ZebraLights do, may not have gotten to some kind of ideal universally approved result yet, but it's a giant step in the right direction in my opinion—they don't really sacrifice simplicity, but still manage to explore their potential an order of magnitude better than any of the "simple" lights from the 90s.

[TEEJ]

A sign of a good UI, if anything.

I agree that a basic use of such a simple and commonplace device as a flashlight should be equally simple and intuitive. Disabling some functions outright is not a good answer to that, though, as being simpler doesn't equate to being better. There's a case in point above where somebody says their light always comes on at its highest output, which limits its usefulness in situations where you don't want excessive light. The OP listed four potentially useful modes (for him), at least two of which would be used very sparingly—is a "simple" UI supposed to cycle through them every time? Having a separate button for rarely used modes is not a good idea either because an unprepared person may disturb somebody or dazzle themselves by pressing the wrong button. Having one button with a twister is hard to use with one hand and/or makes the construction less durable and weather-prone. Tailclickies are good for tactical lights but aren't remotely as handy for any other means. I could go on listing these indefinitely.

This is an actual problem—evidently there are no simple answers to it, and most certainly going "back to basics" won't help anything but undermining the usefulness of a flashlight. Designing smart UIs that are easy to use from the get go, yet having enough depth to tune the light to your personal needs, like the mentioned ArmyTeks and ZebraLights do, may not have gotten to some kind of ideal universally approved result yet, but it's a giant step in the right direction in my opinion—they don't really sacrifice simplicity, but still manage to explore their potential an order of magnitude better than any of the "simple" lights from the 90s.

I agree...Simple is not always better, but complicated is never better either...as the terms are not polar opposites in use.

For example, a 3 speed automatic transmission is less complicated than a 6 speed automatic transmission, but most people out there can use either w/o even needing to know which they had.

A 3 speed manual tranny compared to a 6 speed manual is not harder to use really, but, it does add a little bit of learning curve to get the new pattern.

Its ok, but, only if the gear ranges make sense for the rig. If the engine/gearing is torquey enough, and the RPM range overlaps are close enough....sure.

But, would a 100 speed manual tranny make any sense in say a mid sized car? Obviously, the UI is very flexible, and can adapt to almost any rpm/torque demand, etc...but, is it worth it to equip them like that?

shifting between 100 gears? Really?

On the other hand, if it were an automatic, or, the modern equivalent, a CVT tranny...would that change the balance? Sure it would, now, its a seamless transition. The UI took the more complicated SYSTEM, and made it simple to USE.


What would the moral equivalent on a LIGHT be?

So far, a continuously variable rotary control might come closest, as there's nothing to learn other than which way is brighter/dimmer.

How does one of those access a "hidden function", such as strobe or SOS?


And so forth.

[moozooh]

Personally, I think ZL has nailed it best thus far:

— single press to turn on high → single press to turn off;
— long single press to turn on low → long single press to cycle through three primary modes.

Note how every basic feature is done with a single press! Whereas on a dumb UI three-mode light you would need to press the button up to three times to turn on or off. (Definitely wouldn't want to go back to those basics!)

At the same time, their new flashlights have more modes and various convenience features (graceful stepdown, discharge protection, leftover capacity indicator, low battery indicator, programmable modes, etc.) than anything else I've seen to date.

[Robin24k]

Personally, I think ZL has nailed it best thus far:

— single press to turn on high → single press to turn off;
— long single press to turn on low → long single press to cycle through three primary modes.

Note how every basic feature is done with a single press! Whereas on a dumb UI three-mode light you would need to press the button up to three times to turn on or off. (Definitely wouldn't want to go back to those basics!)

Sounds like you want a Streamlight Stinger...