Secret Aircraft

[JemR]

Just my thought, if they use this drone to collect & return "Data" there is a lower chance the data can be intercepted ( ie vs radio signals back to earth).
So not only film, but digital data could be collected & returned to earth.
Now that I have typed this, I am sure they going to monitor my computer now.

I think you need not worry to much. I mentioned China's new Tiangong-1 Space Station, in a previous post. And there I go again. Twice now.

[Steve K]

Just my thought, if they use this drone to collect & return "Data" there is a lower chance the data can be intercepted ( ie vs radio signals back to earth).

I would have thought they would be using lasers by now. They were experimenting with lasers for communications between satellites 20 years ago, as well as green lasers for submarine to aircraft (or maybe satellite) communications in that same time period.

While there are issues with getting the photons through the turbulent atmosphere, you could at least send a plane up to 30,000 feet to pick up the signal. There's certainly no need to send a vehicle up to space to get that data.

Steve K.

[Launch Mini]

My comments about them tracking my computer were all tongue in cheek.
I read a post about the "Privacy" issues on the Web, just tying in two conspiracy threads.

[JemR]

My comments about them tracking my computer were all tongue in cheek.
I read a post about the "Privacy" issues on the Web, just tying in two conspiracy threads.

Mine too about the secretive Tiangong-1 Space Station, Launch Mini. Oh no, I did it again. That three times now.

[Launch Mini]

I have some spare tin foil, we can both make matching hats if you wish. lol

[JemR]

I have some spare tin foil, we can both make matching hats if you wish. lol

Oh no! What has become of us?

[TedTheLed]

LEDAdd1ct:
You have a beautiful planet, by the way!


Originally Posted by TedTheLe:
you should have seen it 2 centuries ago!


Patriot:

Meanwhile, Ted's doing his part by living in grass huts and burning zero coal, oil, or wood...Just giving ya a hard time buddy!


nah, back then we made do with methane only, and we liked it that way!

[Sub_Umbra]

The last week or so there have been runs spraying for mosquitos along waterways in South Louisiana. A C-130-H isn't a secret plane but nearly everyone who sees the monster flying at treetop level from horizon to horizon is mystified by it.

Heck, when I first saw one making passes after Katrina I thought they were spraying Febreze...

[angelofwar]

I wonder if any of these X-37's have anything to do with DARPA's proposed Space Delivery Vehicle? Got a hot spot flaring up somewhere in the world? We'll have some marines there in about 2-hours. I read about it a while back, but I never heard if the idea got scrapped. BUT, I DID see a UFO on the base I work at. And no, I'm not crazy, cause my coworker saw it with me as well (or maybe we were hallucinating after being in MOPP-4 for 3 hours??? LOL!). It was PROBABLY an UAV, but, I didn't think we had any where I am at, and haven't seen one in my 7 years here. Plus, it was flying a little too close to the flight line.

[Steve K]

I wonder if any of these X-37's have anything to do with DARPA's proposed Space Delivery Vehicle? Got a hot spot flaring up somewhere in the world? We'll have some marines there in about 2-hours. I read about it a while back, but I never heard if the idea got scrapped. ....

I'm not sure about a modern DARPA project, but the whole thing reminds me of the very old X-20 Dyna-Soar project.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-20_Dyna-Soar

It was a military project, with a lot of pie-in-the-sky sorts of applications, but the manned intercontinental bomber app seemed to me to be the most likely or desired. The development of ICBMs probably caused a loss of interest in the Dyna-Soar. Back in those days (late 50's), there was a big competition among the US military forces to be able to deliver nukes all around the world, as well as a lot of funding for these projects.

Anyway... the wiki page has an interesting paragraph that may address why the X-37 is built with wings:

"A drawing in Space/Aeronautics magazine from before the project's cancellation depicts the craft dipping down into the atmosphere, skimming the surface, to change its orbital inclination. It would then fire its rocket to resume orbit. This would be a unique ability for a spacecraft, for the laws of celestial mechanics mean it requires an enormous expenditure of energy for a rocket to change its orbital inclination once it has reached orbit. Hence the Dyna-Soar could have had a military capacity of being launched into one orbit and rendezvousing with a satellite, even if the target were to expend all its propellant in changing its orbit. Acceleration forces on the pilot, however, would be severe in such a maneuver."

I hadn't considered the convenience of using the atmosphere to move to a different orbital inclination! Getting rid of the pilot means that the acceleration forces are no longer such a big issue too. Very interesting stuff.

Steve K.

[march.brown]

LEDAdd1ct: back then we made do with methane only, and we liked it that way!

Didn't that come out (noisily) from cows backsides ?

I don't fancy standing in a field of cows with a polythene bag , trying to collect it ...
.

[h_nu]

X37B team, thanks for the ion beam implanted, microgravity alloy key fob. It's wicked, awesome, baaaad!

[TedTheLed]

Didn't that come out (noisily) from cows backsides ?

I don't fancy standing in a field of cows with a polythene bag , trying to collect it ...
.

hey, dont knock it, ... and if you do, put a bag over it.. moo.

[StarHalo]

Next, we race..

[TedTheLed]

imagine the sound of that? two stealth fighters flew over me once, and it has been the loudest thing I have ever heard.

I was going to say photoshopped but I guess the shadows are ok...

I saw the auroras, two flying together flanked by jets...when they landed them at edwards, in 95 or 6 or there abouts..looked something like these, but were perfect isosceles triangles..

[StarHalo]

It's Lockheed-Martin's photo; what really verifies it are the puddles of leaking fuel.

And there are a lot of triangular aircraft at Edwards, I'd wager that's where this pic was taken..

[ElectronGuru]

what really verifies it are the puddles of leaking fuel.

Gotta love that! The skin gets so hot at mach 3, that the expansion joints were wide enough on the ground to leak fuel. Easily the wickedest plane ever built.

[HighlanderNorth]

I'm surprised that thing in the OP picture can even glide with its tall, wide fuselage and tiny wings!

[blasterman]

This is what happens when you gave Kelly Johnson a slide rule, a really big black budget, and 60's technology . Easily the most sinister thing that's every flew. I remember listening to the news in the 70's as a kid and network anchors reporting sonic booms all along the east coast as SR-71s transitioned from suborbital speeds on their way to Eastern Europe over-flights. So many engineering miracles performed on this beast. Lots of control tower transcripts on the web as various SR-71's made their retirement flights very well known. Good stuff - wicked machine.

[jtr1962]

While on the subject of the SR-71, its maximum sustained speed is Mach 3.2, but the maximum speed is still classified (and rumored to be well in excess of Mach 5). I would imagine heating of the fuselage would be the biggest issue keeping the plane from maintaining >Mach 3.2, but it wouldn't prevent brief forays to Mach 4 or perhaps even Mach 5.

Somewhat related to this was Project Pluto. Although intended for cruise missiles, a nuclear-powered ramjet would probably have found its way into the SR-71 had Project Pluto succeeded. In fact, there were rumors that Project Pluto was merely a cover to develop nuclear-powered ramjets for the SR-71.

[Sub_Umbra]

jtr-- Thanks for posting that. Years and years ago I had a great documentary on Project Pluto. I got rid of it a long time ago when I dumped my VHS tapes. I wanted to see it again a couple years ago but I couldn't remember the project's name.

IMO Project Pluto is one of the weirdest aviation stories of all time.

[moldyoldy]

Given the technology that was available at the the time the SR-71 in my book is an astounding example of what good engineers can come up given solid direction and resources. Kelly Johnson an Co built one helluva aircraft that looks faster standing still in a hangar than most aircraft at Mach 1.2 I remember when I was a kid watching the nightly news and seeing reports of the mysterious sonic booms off the East Coast as SR-71's headed over to Asia for recon flights. More than a few transcripts out there from air traffic controllers monitoring SR-71's that were coming in from their retirement flights and flying faster than their scopes could register over the Western US.

I've known a few people that worked out at Area 51 and related facilities. They laugh when they hear the UFO stuff and say "If you knew what really goes on out there and what we do, you'd be really, really bored".

Rather that put a tarp over secret U.S. test aircraft the DoD should just straddle them with a mannequin of Vladimir Putin :-)

Ref the Kelly Johnson and Co quote above: When an SR-71 came in to Washington area for a flyby before landing and being trucked off to the museum, it came in relatively low over the crowd, then the pilot lit the burners, stood it on it's tail and left. After the noise subsided, one of the design engineers on the ground pulled out his slide-rule and said something to the effect of "and we designed that with these". The SR-71 certainly could be noisy, but even the U-2 was rather noisy at takeoff over my head as compared with the usual fighters.

[moldyoldy]

While on the subject of the SR-71, its maximum sustained speed is Mach 3.2, but the maximum speed is still classified (and rumored to be well in excess of Mach 5). I would imagine heating of the fuselage would be the biggest issue keeping the plane from maintaining >Mach 3.2, but it wouldn't prevent brief forays to Mach 4 or perhaps even Mach 5.

Somewhat related to this was Project Pluto. Although intended for cruise missiles, a nuclear-powered ramjet would probably have found its way into the SR-71 had Project Pluto succeeded. In fact, there were rumors that Project Pluto was merely a cover to develop nuclear-powered ramjets for the SR-71.

The problem with the SR-71 was not necessarily the possible speed, but if the pilot performed a zoom-climb. the SR-71 was capable of going sub-orbital, but would not have sufficient control or control surfaces for the re-entry. Even the F-15 has performed a zoom climb and hit a satellite with a missile. The preferred method is to launch a missile from a Navy ship, and was once shown on the Military Channel.

[moldyoldy]

imagine the sound of that? two stealth fighters flew over me once, and it has been the loudest thing I have ever heard.

I was going to say photoshopped but I guess the shadows are ok...

I saw the auroras, two flying together flanked by jets...when they landed them at edwards, in 95 or 6 or there abouts..looked something like these, but were perfect isosceles triangles..

once upon a time in a place far far away, a B52 flew over me on takeoff with full water injection. It seemingly covered the sky and I had to cover my ears, or rather, squeeze my muffs tighter against my ears. The only noisier aircraft was a C-130 with JATO assist. The high-pitched exhaust from the JATO units was really penetrating! However standing behind a pair of large fighters as their full afterburners kick in really squeezes/thumps a persons chest cavity, the noise is almost unnecessary.

[moldyoldy]

perhaps an fyi would help out CPF members as to some of the nuances of speeds at an altitude, especially when discussing fast aircraft such as the SR-71, Aurora, and beyond.

Using a Mach number to describe a flight speed is deceptive, and valid only for that aircraft at that altitude nominally as determined inside the aircraft. For most of the ground-based purposes, speeds are cited in a distance covered in a short period of time, such as 1.6 miles per sec (SR-71), or a named ground speed in conventional units which can be used for speed record purposes. Nevertheless, a Mach number is dependent on the altitude, temperature, density of the air, etc. Here are some links to help out the discovery process:

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http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...re/q0112.shtml

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There is a calculator in the following link that is quite useful.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/mach.html

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Flying supersonic at low level is a feat of power. The B-58 Hustler was designed to fly supersonic at low level (over Moscow) and was equipped with 4 after-burning engines. At higher altitudes, the B-58 Hustler at Mach 2 was a challenge to the fighters of it's time and set many records! The F4 Phantom could achieve Mach 2.2 and was considered a good example of if you mounted big enough engines on a rock, it would fly. The SR-71 is listed only as Mach 3+. Modern A-A missiles fly around Mach 5. The US Space Shuttle re-enters the atmosphere at about Mach 25 and comes out of the ionization layers at about Mach 23.

Flying supersonic at high altitude requires less power as compared with low level supersonic flight from an air-breathing engine. However, how that air-breathing engine is designed varies widely between nominally supersonic aircraft.

The SR71 uses turbo-ramjets with an inlet cone or spike that moves back in the housing with increasing speed. The MiG-21 has an inlet cone that moves forward with increasing speed. The MiG-25 Foxbat was supposed to be a competitor to the SR-71 and uses a totally different type of air intake. For the English speakers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inlet_cone

In all cases, the engine design controls the airflow in to the engine such that a supersonic shock wave does not reach (too far) into the air-breathing engine where the goal is to avoid supersonic flow inside the engine such as a scramjet. ie: The SR-71 engines are mounted farther out on the wings to avoid the shockwave from the nose. A more critical factor in the SR-71 is that the shock wave from the inlet spike nominally ends at the outer shroud and should not penetrate (too far) in to the engine. At max speeds, the inlet is fully back against the stop. Those shock waves vary with the various altitude related factors. Which means that a "max" speed at one altitude is not the same "max" speed at another altitude. Which is one of the reasons why the MiG-25 and the SR-71 traded off setting speed records....

Here is a link to the SR-71 manual opened to the engine page showing the air flow and shock waves. Notice that the bottom image stops at Mach 3.2 with a fully retracted inlet cone. That means a specific Mach number at flight altitude - leaving some wiggle room for the many rumors of how fast the SR-71 could fly

http://www.sr-71.org/blackbird/manual/1/1-33.php

In my mind, the SR-71 is truly the last of it's kind, meaning very fast with air-breathing engines, no matter at low or very high altitudes. Beyond the SR-71 are other interesting aircraft with a ramjet/scramjet, or the rumoured Aurora with maybe a pulse-jet,..... At my former work, I had a full-screen photo of the SR-71 in flight on my home screen. The SR-71 was truly impressive in so many ways!

[Flying Turtle]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the education.

Geoff

[StarHalo]

My favorite part of the SR-71 - who can name this device?

[moldyoldy]

Is that the rear view periscope, handle included? With the rear-view periscope the pilots could visually check on the engines, etc.

[StarHalo]

rolling bump

[Pinetreebbs]

My favorite part of the SR-71 - who can name this device?

Titanium O hammer?