"I had a flashlight but it was dead"paraphrased quote George Zimmerman

[tsask]

On CNN there is a story with George Zimmerman recounting the events that tragic night.
He was quoted on a before unreleased recording as saying.....words along the lines of I wanted to see what was around corner...."I had a flashlight, but it was dead"

It would be difficult to categorically conclude that a functioning O Light M 20, for example would have altered the outcome, yet a high powered light used at the right time, right situation COULD MAYBE PERHAPS have made a difference.... if nothing other than facilitating separation of the individuals before the fight occurred.

This is yet another reason to make sure cells are fresh on EDC light prior to an evening excursion.

[nbp]

Who's Zimmerman?

[StarHalo]

"I had a flashlight, but it was dead"

Not remotely surprising; tactical pseudo-security's light doesn't work, out chasing "suspicious" kids, running out of his car, ignoring the 911 dispatcher, etc.

[mvyrmnd]

Who's Zimmerman?

Since clearly nbp is being sarcastic, I'll re ask that on behalf of the non-Americans.

[nbp]

Actually not. I have no idea what this thread is about.

[StarHalo]

Since clearly nbp is being sarcastic, I'll re ask that on behalf of the non-Americans.

In a Florida gated community in February, George Zimmerman was driving through the neighborhood when he noticed a teen on foot he felt was suspicious - Mr. Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch leader, so he took it upon himself to follow the kid in his car while calling the police. The police dispatcher told him to remain in his car and they'd send someone out. Mr. Zimmerman then left his car and began following the teen on foot, mumbling "they always get away." The phone call was still connected and recording when there was an audible scuffle, then yelling, then gunshots - Zimmerman shot the teen, 17 year old Trayvon Martin, dead. Martin was wearing a hoodie and was carrying a can of Arizona Tea and a bag of Skittles. Florida has a Stand Your Ground law, which states that you can use deadly force against someone you feel is threatening you - based on this law, Mr. Zimmerman was briefly interviewed by the police, then released without charge.

A Special Prosecutor filed murder charges against Mr. Zimmerman over a month after the incident, though he was only held a week before posting bail. He is now back in custody on an unrelated charge of not reporting income.

[pblanch]

I live in Australia and I know who this guy is. Tragic Accident or whatever you want to call it. I dont think a light would have made a difference.

[mvyrmnd]

Actually not. I have no idea what this thread is about.

Sorry! Usually the only time someone uses is when they're inviting things to be thrown

In a Florida gated community in February, George Zimmerman was driving through the neighborhood when he noticed a teen on foot he felt was suspicious - Mr. Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch leader, so he took it upon himself to follow the kid in his car while calling the police. The police dispatcher told him to remain in his car and they'd send someone out. Mr. Zimmerman then left his car and began following the teen on foot, mumbling "they always get away." The phone call was still connected and recording when there was an audible scuffle, then yelling, then gunshots - Zimmerman shot the teen, 17 year old Trayvon Martin, dead. Martin was wearing a hoodie and was carrying a can of Arizona Tea and a bag of Skittles. Florida has a Stand Your Ground law, which states that you can use deadly force against someone you feel is threatening you - based on this law, Mr. Zimmerman was briefly interviewed by the police, then released without charge.

A Special Prosecutor filed murder charges against Mr. Zimmerman over a month after the incident, though he was only held a week before posting bail. He is now back in custody on an unrelated charge of not reporting income.

Oh. So a happy ending then.

Yes, I'm sure a working flashlight would have fixed everything

That "Stand your ground" law sounds custom made to allow people to shoot each other without recourse.

[John_Galt]

Sorry! Usually the only time someone uses is when they're inviting things to be thrown



Oh. So a happy ending then.

Yes, I'm sure a working flashlight would have fixed everything

That "Stand your ground" law sounds custom made to allow people to shoot each other without recourse.

Not quite. Quite honestly, this is a thread topic that would be best discussed on the Underground, but since it's here:

The Stand Your Ground law is, in my opinion, quite a necessary law. When one is attacked, one should not be expected to be required to tuck tail and run, especially when one has the means to defend themselves. The SYG law allows for the common-sense legal defense that you were met with violence outside your home, and because of this, you felt the need to defend yourself with counter-violence. Mr. Zimmerman shot Martin once, and only once. His testimony matches that of several witnesses-from-afar, that Martin had him on the ground, on his back, and was punching him and slamming his head into the ground. Records show that Martin was bleeding from the back of the head at the scene, and that he had facial bruising such as one would get from being punched repeatedly. Fists are quite deadly, and there has been more than one case where a fist fight has resulted in the death of one of the parties involved.

So Zimmerman, having followed Martin, to determine what was going on, and keep track of his whereabouts to inform the police when they eventually arrived, was met with physical violence from a physically aggressive teenager. [Backstory: according to reports, this community had suffered a large increase in the number of break-ins in the last months. A neighbor noting suspicious activity and following up on it, while contacting the police is not a bad thing] Placed in a situation that was further escalated, Zimmerman shot Martin, killing him.

The whole situation is FUBAR, and the media, as usual, is not reporting all information, or all information without bias, which is definitely not helping the situation. Martin was not, as the media likes to portray, a nice, sweet and caring youth. He was a tall, strong and well built "yoot" who had been in trouble at school on multiple instances for his antics. And zimmerman is not the neo-nazi he was originally portrayed to be, either.

Also:
-Zimmerman was not told explicitly to remain in his vehicle, it was reported that way, but the dispatcher actually only suggested remaining in his vehicle.


---------
We are a nation of laws, with a legal/justice system meant to interpret and investigate. This system must take its time, noting that public scrutiny will highlight their actions. In the end, I cna only hope that the court of public opinion, which requires no basis of fact, does not affect the investigation and trial proceedings.

[Yamabushi]

He is now back in custody on an unrelated charge of not reporting income.

Zimmerman's bail was revoked because the judge said he and his wife lied to the court about their finances so he could obtain a lower bond.

BTW, for those who aren't familiar with the case, many people contend that the main reason Zimmerman confronted Trayvon Martin was that the teen was black.

[John_Galt]

Zimmerman's bail was revoked because the judge said he and his wife lied to the court about their finances so he could obtain a lower bond.

BTW, for those who aren't familiar with the case, many people contend that the main reason Zimmerman confronted Trayvon Martin was that the teen was black.

A perfect example of the CPO I mention above. I have to love how that's always the first claim in situations like this.

[ragweed]

I am still trying to find out where the CSI guy was. In my area in the midwest there is always one that shows up & sometimes several.

[nbp]

Ok, knew the story but not the name.

[StarHalo]

The SYG law allows for the common-sense legal defense that you were met with violence outside your home, and because of this, you felt the need to defend yourself with counter-violence.

Would this be your position if Trayvon Martin had shot and killed an unarmed George Zimmerman, who was chasing him on foot?

[John_Galt]

Would this be your position if Trayvon Martin had shot and killed an unarmed George Zimmerman, who was chasing him on foot?

If evidence showed that Zimmerman had been the first to use physical aggression. But that is not what the evidence, eye witnesses, nor Zimmermans story add up to.

[Yamabushi]

If evidence showed that Zimmerman had been the first to use physical aggression. But that is not what the evidence, eye witnesses, nor Zimmermans story add up to.

This case is a classic example of the Rashomon effect; everyone saw and remembered the same event differently from the perspective of their prejudices. Then the media report the "facts" through the filter of their own prejudices, and people read the media reports through yet another set of filters.

Zimmerman said he saw a suspicious guy holding something in his hand who suddenly started to run; so he got out of his car to follow. Trevon Martin's girlfriend, who was talking to him on his cell phone, said Martin saw a creepy guy following him in a car so she told him to run (he was killed 70 yards from the townhouse where he was staying as a guest).

Although I generally agree that you shouldn't be required to retreat from an aggressor, the problem in this case is that initially, Zimmerman appears to have been the aggressor. He followed, then pursued and then approached Martin who apparently was fleeing to safety.

No one seems to have seen exactly how the fight started, or if and when lethal force became justified. Martin was 4" taller than Zimmerman; Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 40 pounds. Some witnesses said Martin was on top of Zimmerman; other witnesses said Zimmerman was on top of Martin.

[JacobJones]

Hmmm. Personally I believe Zimmerman to be in the wrong, following somebody who you are suspicious of is always a stupid idea (unless you are trained and authorised to do so, aka police officers) as it can lead to confrontation and possibly death of innocent people. Maybe Martin was engaging in criminal behavior, maybe he was just walking home after a hard days work, either way Zimmerman should not have approached him.

[LGT]

Interesting discussion, I guess. But I really can't see why it's here. Perhaps a "Law and order" forum should be added to CPF.

[nfetterly]

Interesting discussion, I guess. But I really can't see why it's here. Perhaps a "Law and order" forum should be added to CPF.

The original question was...'if he had a working flashlight (apparently quoted as flashlight didn't work".

The whole thing is FUBAR as mentioned above. If Zimmerman had a working flashlight and shone it on Martin, it would have seemed less suspicious / aggressive than following him in the dark. The media and many others who have weighed in on this in the news has just made it worse.

[lampeDépêche]

I urge the moderators to close this thread or move it elsewhere.

It is (predictably) becoming an acrimonious exchange about a topic only peripherally related to the purpose of the forum.

It's not my forum, so I won't tell you what to do.

But I see tinder and increasing heat, and I don't see it ending any other way than in flames.

[Novan3]

...I dont think a light would have made a difference.

All else being equal on the presumption nothing was race motivated, I think a flashlight WOULD have made a difference.

[StarHalo]

But I see tinder and increasing heat, and I don't see it ending any other way than in flames.

This thread is remarkably calm considering the subject, this isn't even warm by CPF standards..

[fishndad]

IN THIS CASE! I dont think a light would have made any difference.
Zimmerman was in his vechicle with working headlamps following Martin.He called 911 and after being instructed to stay in his car,he got out anyway . My own common sence says Zimmerman was only going to be content confronting Martin.With or without a working light.What happned next will only be known by Zimmerman.There was no actual eye witness who saw the whole thing.
My opinion is not a commentary on Zimmermans guilt or innocense it mearly states he didnt care if his light worked or not he was getting out and confronting Martin.That is the one fact we all know of for sure.

[Diablo_331]

The rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than it may seem... Some will know what I'm referring too and most won't. I agree that this is probably not a discussion for CPF and would be better off in the underground.

[Burgess]

gee . . . .

You're saying that we CPF members aren't even *capable*

of discussion on this Post, without things getting Out of Hand ? ? ?


_

[mvyrmnd]

All else being equal on the presumption nothing was race motivated, I think a flashlight WOULD have made a difference.

Race could still be irrelevant and he just wanted the kids off his lawn (metaphorically speaking). The law gave him the ability to shoot the kid, so he did.

[braddy]

There is so much misinformation on this thread it is incredible, I expected better informed people here.

Some of these bizarre opinions would have been acceptable at first when the media was saturating the public with misinformation such as Zimmerman as a "white man" instead of a white, black, Hispanic of mixed race, that Trayvon was a saintly tiny kid and so on, but so many facts have come out that by now everyone should have a pretty good grasp on what happened that evening.

[fyrstormer]

I don't think a flashlight would've made much difference. The local police said that Zimmerman had repeatedly called them to report suspicious activity and the suspects were always young black males. He may not have intended to be racist, but he was certainly behaving like one. He saw a black kid, decided the kid was up to no good, and confronted him.

I haven't heard anything to suggest that Zimmerman attempted to handle the situation in any way other than continuing to escalate, and apparently Trayvon Martin wasn't the kind of person who would take off running just to avoid a fight.

Even if Martin had taken off at a sprint, Zimmerman might well have interpreted that as an implicit admission of guilt, not realizing how threatening his own behavior might appear to someone who had no reason to expect trouble. I think the outcome was more-or-less inevitable.

The real problem in this case was not the lack of good lighting, it was the Stand Your Ground law. It allows people to shoot suspected aggressors without ever attempting to de-escalate the situation even a little bit. Merely taking a couple steps back is enough to determine if another person is an aggressor, because an aggressor will step forward when you step back. That symbolic gesture of not wanting to get in a fight doesn't increase risk for the defender at all, and it allows the defender to assess whether the other person really does want to get into a fight. That information is enough to justify deadly force if necessary, but allowing people to shoot other people just because of bad mojo is unacceptable in civilized society.

Admittedly though, not everyone wants to live in civilized society; some people like the feeling of subduing a world that (in their minds) wants to destroy them. People like that are welcome to move to Somalia, the Land Where (those kind of) Dreams Come True.

[StarHalo]

apparently Trayvon Martin wasn't the kind of person who would take off running just to avoid a fight.

If Trayvon also produced a handgun and each shot the other dead on site, I wonder if there would be so much enthusiasm for the Stand Your Ground law; perhaps then the view that Zimmerman should have remained in his car would be more popular.

[fyrstormer]

If Trayvon also produced a handgun and each shot the other dead on site, I wonder if there would be so much enthusiasm for the Stand Your Ground law; perhaps then the view that Zimmerman should have remained in his car would be more popular.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think in that case Martin would've been viewed as a heat-packing hoodlum and Zimmerman's self-supposed status as a card-carrying Good Samaritan would've been confirmed. I think the scenario you described would just confirm the notion behind the SYG law, that if you think someone's up to no good, they probably are, and you should respond as though you know for sure. I think that would've made SYG laws even more popular.