RMSK, Inc.        
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 49

Thread: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    I know this has been discussed in the past, but I wanted to hear some fresh feedback regarding this topic...

    IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design. But I think there comes a point in time when that light is no longer a custom. Once it has been produced by automated machining multiple times, and is basically in "in stock" item, do you think it is still a "Custom" light? Why should lights be any different from knives? If the major components were made by the hands of the designer, it is a custom. If it was all machine made, it is a production run...no matter what the qty is.

    Also, a manufacturer that offers "options" when ordering is not a "Custom" light IMO. It is a light that is customized, but definitely not in the same category as a custom.

    Perhaps we should have a sub-forum called "Machine Made Original Designs"
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  2. #2

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    You are getting granular with the word "Custom".

    In my dictionary, "Custom" is make to order. Does not matter it is hand or machine made. "In stock" options are not "Custom" to me, they are just, Options, like when you buy a new car and select options. Custom can be all original from the ground up or can be modified from existing, as long as make to order and not on a ready to order option list.

  3. #3

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    hds is custom and all hds related discussion belongs to custom section.

  4. #4
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by shelm View Post
    hds is custom and all hds related discussion belongs to custom section.
    HDS has never been a custom.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  5. #5
    Flashaholic fishndad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by aau007 View Post
    You are getting granular with the word "Custom".

    In my dictionary, "Custom" is make to order. Does not matter it is hand or machine made. "In stock" options are not "Custom" to me, they are just, Options, like when you buy a new car and select options. Custom can be all original from the ground up or can be modified from existing, as long as make to order and not on a ready to order option list.
    Yep! As soon as you alter from or ad to the basic form that is offered you have made it a Custom light.
    Sounds trivial but thats it.
    I would say that there are custom lights that are built with an incredibly high level of craftsmanship (HDS).
    But they are no more custom than a Solarforce with a surefire drop-in.
    There just better.
    Union Proud IBEW Local 683

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by fishndad View Post
    Yep! As soon as you alter from or ad to the basic form that is offered you have made it a Custom light.
    Sounds trivial but thats it.
    I would say that there are custom lights that are built with an incredibly high level of craftsmanship (HDS).
    But they are no more custom than a Solarforce with a surefire drop-in.
    There just better.
    Adding anything to a stock light only makes it a Modified version of the same stock light. I am talking about a true custom, not a lightly pimped stock light. And again, HDS is not a custom light.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  7. #7
    Flashaholic fishndad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by F250XLT View Post
    Adding anything to a stock light only makes it a Modified version of the same stock light. I am talking about a true custom, not a lightly pimped stock light. And again, HDS is not a custom light.

    I got this from Websters.
    Custom Made=made to fit the needs or requirements of a particular person

    So, looks like your right if you are refering to having a light Custom Made for you.
    Otherwise a custom loght doesnt really exist.
    If you bought a custom light that was made for someone else.
    Is it still custom?
    Union Proud IBEW Local 683

  8. #8
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by fishndad View Post
    I got this from Websters.
    Custom Made=made to fit the needs or requirements of a particular person

    So, looks like your right if you are refering to having a light Custom Made for you.
    Otherwise a custom loght doesnt really exist.
    If you bought a custom light that was made for someone else.
    Is it still custom?

    Not really caring what it states in a dictionary, looking for opinions from CPF'ers.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  9. #9
    Flashaholic fishndad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by F250XLT View Post
    Not really caring what it states in a dictionary, looking for opinions from CPF'ers.
    You have gottin 3 CPFers replys. it just doesnt seem you agree.
    You did say (IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design).
    Its just thats not what custom means. You dont have to get upset.
    Union Proud IBEW Local 683

  10. #10
    Moderator


    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Penn's Woods
    Posts
    5,877

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Small or one person shop, original design, premium materials, the product of sweat, obsession, and passion for what they do. Be it parts or a complete light. That's my definition, yours obviously differs. In the end, i'm curious as to your motivation for asking...

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by fishndad View Post
    You have gottin 3 CPFers replys. it just doesnt seem you agree.
    You did say (IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design).
    Its just thats not what custom means. You dont have to get upset.

    What gives you the slightest idea I am upset , please don't start making assumptions that are way over the top. Again, I am looking for opinions, and thank you for sharing yours.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24 View Post
    In the end, i'm curious as to your motivation for asking...

    I have no motivation other than being bored at work, and trying to get some back and forth going...Everyone is going to have their opinion, and it doesn't sound like mine differs much from yours.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  13. #13
    Flashaholic fishndad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    OK
    Yea i would agree that custom is handcrafted vs assembly line machining goes.
    There are brands like HDS or Peak that i would still keep in the catigory of custom.They seem to put the Quality and detail
    into there products that would be expected from a custom producer.
    Using an autocad design and programming it into a machine, coming back from lunch and you got 20 bodies doesnt mean its not custom.
    Union Proud IBEW Local 683

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Miami, Florida
    Posts
    4,754

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by F250XLT View Post
    I have no motivation other than being bored at work, and trying to get some back and forth going...Everyone is going to have their opinion, and it doesn't sound like mine differs much from yours.
    Well, since 'words' are defined by their context, I guess it 'can' mean different things to different people.

    I'm going with you though, on the 'made to order' definition, be it machine made, or hand made.

    Somebody paints a picture by hand, it's a picture, not a custom picture.

    You pay somebody to paint your family's portrait, it's a 'custom' portrait.

    'Made to order' = custom in my mind, whether by machine, or by hand.

    Chris
    Convoy: S2, S2+, M1, M2, Fenix: P1D, PD32, HL30, ET: D25C Ti, SF: 6P, ZL: SC-600, Klarus: P2A, Jetbeam: BA-20, Icon: Rogue 1, L3: L10, Xeno: E03, ShiningBeam: I-Mini, Olight: i3s, SWM: D40A, M11R, V11R, Maglite: 6Ds, MMs, Solitaires, LaCrosse BC-700, Maha C-9000, XTAR VP2, MP1S, XP1, MC1+, WP2 II, NiteCore i4, v2.

  15. #15
    Enlightened
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by F250XLT View Post
    I know this has been discussed in the past, but I wanted to hear some fresh feedback regarding this topic...

    IMO a custom light is one made by hand in small quantities, born from an original design.

    Perhaps we should have a sub-forum called "Machine Made Original Designs"
    Since we are dissecting the word custom, what are your thoughts on the term made by hand...

    Also if a factory torch has been customised by a custom maker to specifically suit a persons needs, does it become a custom....or are you just a customer of a custom maker....

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* brighterisbetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tornado Alley, USA
    Posts
    2,394

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    BIB's .02

    In my vernacular, "custom" is synonymous with "unique" or "one-of-a-kind". If they're two-of-a-kind identical specimens, then it's a grey area whether they're "custom" or "production" - irregardless whether they were both made by hand by the same person. Limited runs also are a grey area as well, for instance....prototypes. Are they "customs"? Or is a prototype a class all to itself? What would a McGizmo Ti 27LT proto (4 pcs made if memory serves correctly) classify as?

    I think by definition, any of PhotonFanatic's one-off's are undeniably "custom" whereas CoolFall's Spy's and Tri-V's...while certainly drool-inducing and highly sought after and in limited quantities...are "production".

    In the end, I think your OP is a thought-provoking one, and opinions are surely to differ from one individual to the next. In the meantime, I'm sure the mod's will do a great job making their own determinations which sales threads belong in which sub-forums and which threads will get moved to somewhere more appropriate. Would be interesting to hear some of their inputs here as well.

    For the record, in my opinion doing an emitter swap hardly qualifies the light as a custom.

  17. #17
    nfetterly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati area, but lots of travel
    Posts
    3,547

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24 View Post
    Small or one person shop, original design, premium materials, the product of sweat, obsession, and passion for what they do. Be it parts or a complete light.
    Yep I agree with this one.


  18. #18
    nfetterly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati area, but lots of travel
    Posts
    3,547

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by brighterisbetter View Post
    For the record, in my opinion doing an emitter swap hardly qualifies the light as a custom.
    What about a McGizmo AL PD with Grey HA, PEU trit bezel and a emitter swap to neutral XM-L with amperage bump.

    FWIW I consider the Spy series custom as I consider McGizmos customs. PhotonFanatic's one off's are just out of this world.



    I was wishing I knew how to do multi quotes - then after replying here I saw the multi quote button....


  19. #19
    Flashaholic* brighterisbetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tornado Alley, USA
    Posts
    2,394

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by nfetterly View Post
    What about a McGizmo AL PD with Grey HA, PEU trit bezel and a emitter swap to neutral XM-L with amperage bump.
    If those characteristics make it a one-of-a-kind then yes I would agree that is a custom light. I was more or less getting at seeing an EagleTac or something in the B/S/T thread with a HighCRI emitter swap, instead of on the Marketplace where I think it would be more suited.

  20. #20
    Flashaholic* brighterisbetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tornado Alley, USA
    Posts
    2,394

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Curious to everyone's thoughts on how they'd classify Malkoff products. Whether they started off "production", then evolved to "custom" and finally matured into "production"....and at which pivotal points/products would signify those distinctions.



    I'm starting to favor scout24's definition more and more

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo75 View Post
    Since we are dissecting the word custom, what are your thoughts on the term made by hand...

    Also if a factory torch has been customised by a custom maker to specifically suit a persons needs, does it become a custom....or are you just a customer of a custom maker....
    Not trying to dissect a word here, trying to differentiate loosely used titles given to lights.

    Quote Originally Posted by brighterisbetter View Post
    BIB's .02

    In my vernacular, "custom" is synonymous with "unique" or "one-of-a-kind". If they're two-of-a-kind identical specimens, then it's a grey area whether they're "custom" or "production" - irregardless whether they were both made by hand by the same person. Limited runs also are a grey area as well, for instance....prototypes. Are they "customs"? Or is a prototype a class all to itself? What would a McGizmo Ti 27LT proto (4 pcs made if memory serves correctly) classify as?

    I think by definition, any of PhotonFanatic's one-off's are undeniably "custom" whereas CoolFall's Spy's and Tri-V's...while certainly drool-inducing and highly sought after and in limited quantities...are "production".

    In the end, I think your OP is a thought-provoking one, and opinions are surely to differ from one individual to the next. In the meantime, I'm sure the mod's will do a great job making their own determinations which sales threads belong in which sub-forums and which threads will get moved to somewhere more appropriate. Would be interesting to hear some of their inputs here as well.

    For the record, in my opinion doing an emitter swap hardly qualifies the light as a custom.
    I really think you are on the right track...Fred's lights are absolutely Custom, as custom as it gets IMO. And If you think a Tri-V is a production light, so is everything Don is doing these days...no? (I agree with this opinion BTW)

    Quote Originally Posted by nfetterly View Post
    What about a McGizmo AL PD with Grey HA, PEU trit bezel and a emitter swap to neutral XM-L with amperage bump.

    I call that a modified production light.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  22. #22
    Moderator
    nbp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24
    Small or one person shop, original design, premium materials, the product of sweat, obsession, and passion for what they do. Be it parts or a complete light. That's my definition, yours obviously differs. In the end, i'm curious as to your motivation for asking...
    Sounds good to me!

    My McGizmos, Muyshondts, Mac, BitZ are not 1 of 1, but the above characteristics make them all Customs in my book. Maybe a machine did some of the work on the body tubes, so what? Each one of those lights was put together by one set of hands, tested by those hands, packaged by those hands, addressed to me by those hands, and all the while those same hands typed emails or PMs to me to discuss their product and answer my questions and concerns. That's Custom to me

  23. #23

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by F250XLT View Post
    Once it has been produced by automated machining multiple times, and is basically in "in stock" item, do you think it is still a "Custom" light? Why should lights be any different from knives?
    Its a tricky comparison. Good knives are forged, and require a hammer to take their final shape. Mass produced vs custom knives will be whether that hammer is attached to a machine or someone's arm. I can't even imagine what a forged flashlight would take to make, so machine cutting actually requires less resources. The only question then, from a pure manufacturing standpoint is if a hand was turning the knobs and levers or if it was programmed. The main obstacle to automated/programmed milling is batch size. It may take 1000 pieces just to break even on the setup chargers.
    Control the Dark

    OR Facebook | OR Forum
    | OR Insider | OVEREADY.com

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* brighterisbetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tornado Alley, USA
    Posts
    2,394

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    I'm starting to think the difference lies in "custom" versus "personalization". A BTO (build to order) configuration offered on Macbook computers is a way to tailor it to the user specification prior to or in tandem with the sale transpiring. However, the sheer magnitude of Macbook computers sold and having few BTO options available means that there will be multiple iterations of the same configuration sold to the public. Would you consider those laptops customs? I would not.

    My classification of McGizmo's being non-custom doesn't make them any less special in my eyes. So to anyone reading my post, please don't misinterpret as such. I just think that "custom" and "unique" are absolutely mutually inclusive terms. "Personalizing" a light certainly makes it unique, as is the case with serial numbers, and splash anodizing, and etching/signing clips, etc. But at the core of those procedures is still a light underneath that does not differ from others offered by same vendor within the same product category. A "custom" is one that is built from scratch to the customer's unique requirements, not one that is built to order by the simple swap of one or two or three components of an otherwise semi-production unit.
    Last edited by brighterisbetter; 06-22-2012 at 06:28 PM.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Saying a McGizmo isn't a custom in no way lessens what it is, a fantastic, well thought out product. But it is certainly a production light at this point IMO.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* brighterisbetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tornado Alley, USA
    Posts
    2,394

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    Each one of those lights was put together by one set of hands, tested by those hands, packaged by those hands, addressed to me by those hands, and all the while those same hands typed emails or PMs to me to discuss their product and answer my questions and concerns. That's Custom to me
    +1

  27. #27

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    This is a really great question!
    Very custom indeed

    It does seem everyone has their own opinion.

    CPF policy has its own definition in terms of whats allowable in the custom builders & modders section, but in the truest sense, perhaps a custom is a light where each is either individually made or individually modified so that it is "customized" in a way different to the run-of-the-mill version.

    Its common to see "custom edition" cars or other mass produced products, but perhaps when it comes to flashlights, it would seem that custom implies more of a "unique" or "craftsman" type of meaning than the context used for such mass produced products.

    So interesting to see so many varied opinions and interpretations of the same words

    Just imagine how much variance there might be if we ask "How do you define bright?"

    tgwnn

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* brighterisbetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tornado Alley, USA
    Posts
    2,394

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    (my stupid post deleted sorry)
    Last edited by brighterisbetter; 06-22-2012 at 06:16 PM.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* F250XLT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I can see the Windmills...
    Posts
    2,161

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_guy_with_no_name View Post
    CPF policy has its own definition in terms of whats allowable in the custom builders & modders section, but in the truest sense, perhaps a custom is a light where each is either individually made or individually modified so that it is "customized" in a way different to the run-of-the-mill version.

    I guess that is where I see a true difference, custom vs customized. I am speaking of a true custom from the get go, not some tweaks to a production light. Just because something is assembled by hand, does not make it a custom. If that were true, we'd be paying a lot more for many "custom" items in our everyday life.
    "I am not a Collector" - Tim

  30. #30

    Default Re: At what point is a "Custom", no longer a Custom?

    Quote Originally Posted by F250XLT View Post
    I guess that is where I see a true difference, custom vs customized. I am speaking of a true custom from the get go, not some tweaks to a production light. Just because something is assembled by hand, does not make it a custom. If that were true, we'd be paying a lot more for many "custom" items in our everyday life.
    Sure, that makes sense.
    I visualize what you are saying as something akin to a sword maker, where each item is forged by hand (whether pre-ordered or not) and each is a unique masterpiece.

    I guess the more specific the wording, the more concise of an image/definition it creates.

    Perhaps in CPF, keeping it somewhat broad allows room for flexibility but you could easily differentiate:
    custom
    customized
    custom-made
    made-to-order
    individually-made (crafted/machined)

    Even then, there may be some ambiguity in deciding where to draw the line?
    Using a mass produced led is ok, but not a mass produced body, how about the reflector, lens, switch, etc?

    Something to think about

    tgwnn

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •