MBI #3 - Codename: HF

[Launch Mini]

Scrapped my idea

I was thinking red and green trits. If you hold the light the same way every time you can remember. red high. Green low.
Keep it nautical. Red left. Green n right. Hopefully the twists work in those directions.

iHO the 40 or so lumens on low is perfectly useable and the high is for the wow factor only.

[Got Lumens?]

Scapped my idea

Why????
I liked your Red Green Idea
GL

[DBCstm]

I really enjoy reading the "numbers" that you guys are spouting here Guy, Esko....I know just enough about most of this to recognize it and still nothing at all. So, with that said, let me share this. As I've said before I had JayRob build me a custom MagLite by cutting down a 2D body to hold 1 32650 Li-ion protected cell. There is a driver installed in a relatively large aluminum heat sink that let's the XM-L T6 put out approx 1000 lumens. I've had it a few months and typically only use it for a few minutes at a time. I have used it before to the point that the entire head of the MagLite heated up but not too much to hold on to. The point of this? My light is now showing a green tinge that was not there before. According to what I've been reading from your postings, this means that my XM-L T6 has been driven too hot and is damaged. Correct?

So I do appreciate the help you're giving Guy, Esko, and I very much want my new killer tiny ti light to be able to last under actual use. I also do not relish having a Li-ion cell explode or catch fire, even a tiny one! So by all means take your time and get this useable even at the cost of reducing the extreme WOW factor to a simple jaw dropping AWESOME!

Dale

[DBCstm]

Also a note, I find that a tiny light that makes 140 lumens is very much an effective tool and also has a big wow factor. So if a smaller one were to put out more than twice as much at ~300 lumens it would be awe inspiring and quite possibly much more useful than one putting out Sun rays that could cause skin cancer. Now I'm not knocking 680 lumens! But the safety factor and longetivity of the device does need some consideration and if it can be built to put out that power without causing Nuclear alarms to go off in a 150 mile radius then I'm all for it! ( I live within 30 miles of a major Army base )

Also , to Esko, my tiny Ruger SP101 and another equally small S&W Mod 60, both in SS, are very accurate with said mega load. Easily able to register on a head sized target from 20 yds. And each has a mere 2" long barrel that is very easy to wield. As a competition shooter in the past, Good Guy Bad Guy and target/bowling pin, I would not hesitate to use either under almost any circumstance. Ported mini pistols do come with a sacrifice, as do many tiny things that are pushed to limits, as long as those limits are known and not excessively exceeded then all should be well!

[the_guy_with_no_name]

Standard Order Codes and Bins (XM-L High Voltage ANSI Neutral White)
T6- XMLHVW-Q0-0000-0000LT3E4 - 4500K

Standard Order Codes and Bins (XM-L High Voltage ANSI Neutral White - 80 CRI)
S6- XMLHVW-Q0-0000-0000HS6F5 - 4300K

Standard Order Codes and Bins (XM-L ANSI Neutral White)
T6- XMLAWT-00-0000-000LT60E3 - 5000K

Hi GL,

As always, Thank you

I believe it is exactly the high Vf that is the limiting factor together with the cell capabilities to deliver high current at high voltage (guick discharge). Some CPF'ers have done some IMR discharge tests, and if you check (for example) this thread and the graphs, you can see that at higher discharge rates, the voltage drops almost immediately below 3,75 volt line. Those tests are done at 5C-8C, which equals to some 8-12 minutes discharge time, still a lot longer than the expected run time of MBI HF. So, in HF, it should sag even faster.

You (or your lab team) is doing actual tests, but based on the numbers only, I would expect that it is a lot safer to direct drive Nichia than XM-L (probably even if XM-L has the 0,5 ohm resistor), and there would be less heat buildup, longer total runtime, it would stay within the specified values of the led, and it would be safer for the batteries. And - of course - it would emit considerably less light, too. Wouldn't be too surprised, if it could be used with no time limits at all.

Btw, I might have missed some info before, but if your batteries can be discharged even faster than IMR cells, I am curious to hear what is the chemistry behind them? I have been a bit cautious with lithium reghargeables, and before this purchase, I have only used high quality protected cells (AW and Redilast).

Hi Esko,

Thanks very much for the continued thoughts and feedback
Your theory agrees with my test data also

Previously, I tested the 10250 output at 2A with the following results:

Test	Time	Voltage	Current
10250 - n2		4.17	1.992
10250 - n2	1	4.10	1.992
10250 - n2	2	3.90	1.992
10250 - n2	3	3.76	1.992
10250 - n2	4	3.68	1.992
10250 - n2	5	3.63	1.992
10250 - n2	6	3.60	1.992
10250 - n2	7	3.56	1.992
10250 - n2	8	3.53	1.992
10250 - n2	9	3.51	1.997

After 30 seconds, the voltage was 3.2V

EDIT: my post was chopped below this table...
Have to run but will fix it later....

EDIT: somewhat fixed below.....



With a 10440 At 1.4A

Test	Time	Voltage	Current
1400mA - fully charged		4.26	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	1	4.15	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	2	4.13	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	3	3.85	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	4	3.80	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	5	3.77	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	6	3.75	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	7	3.74	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	8	3.72	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	9	3.71	1.400
1400mA - fully charged	10	3.69	1.400

Then down to 3.46V after 30 seconds

So yes, I agree the Nichia should be safe and regulated sufficiently by the battery but still recommended to keep the use on high to 10 Seconds and Max of 20 Seconds to prevent over-taxing the battery. I don't have all the test numbers here but I can re-test or find them later. I should mention I've run the batteries at the high amperage for > 60 seconds in my test unit, and with the 10440 for over 4 minutes but you should never do that in real life.

One other point to mention is that the XM-L has a larger surface area than the Nichia so this allows it to better handle the higher wattage in terms of heat.

tgwnn

[the_guy_with_no_name]

Scrapped my idea

I was thinking red and green trits. If you hold the light the same way every time you can remember. red high. Green low.
Keep it nautical. Red left. Green n right. Hopefully the twists work in those directions.

iHO the 40 or so lumens on low is perfectly useable and the high is for the wow factor only.

Hi Launch Mini,

Sure, why not

Why????
I liked your Red Green Idea
GL

+1

I really enjoy reading the "numbers" that you guys are spouting here Guy, Esko....I know just enough about most of this to recognize it and still nothing at all. So, with that said, let me share this. As I've said before I had JayRob build me a custom MagLite by cutting down a 2D body to hold 1 32650 Li-ion protected cell. There is a driver installed in a relatively large aluminum heat sink that let's the XM-L T6 put out approx 1000 lumens. I've had it a few months and typically only use it for a few minutes at a time. I have used it before to the point that the entire head of the MagLite heated up but not too much to hold on to. The point of this? My light is now showing a green tinge that was not there before. According to what I've been reading from your postings, this means that my XM-L T6 has been driven too hot and is damaged. Correct?

So I do appreciate the help you're giving Guy, Esko, and I very much want my new killer tiny ti light to be able to last under actual use. I also do not relish having a Li-ion cell explode or catch fire, even a tiny one! So by all means take your time and get this useable even at the cost of reducing the extreme WOW factor to a simple jaw dropping AWESOME!

Dale

Also a note, I find that a tiny light that makes 140 lumens is very much an effective tool and also has a big wow factor. So if a smaller one were to put out more than twice as much at ~300 lumens it would be awe inspiring and quite possibly much more useful than one putting out Sun rays that could cause skin cancer. Now I'm not knocking 680 lumens! But the safety factor and longetivity of the device does need some consideration and if it can be built to put out that power without causing Nuclear alarms to go off in a 150 mile radius then I'm all for it! ( I live within 30 miles of a major Army base )

Also , to Esko, my tiny Ruger SP101 and another equally small S&W Mod 60, both in SS, are very accurate with said mega load. Easily able to register on a head sized target from 20 yds. And each has a mere 2" long barrel that is very easy to wield. As a competition shooter in the past, Good Guy Bad Guy and target/bowling pin, I would not hesitate to use either under almost any circumstance. Ported mini pistols do come with a sacrifice, as do many tiny things that are pushed to limits, as long as those limits are known and not excessively exceeded then all should be well!

Hi DBC,

Thanks very much for sharing that.
The more the better but as you mentioned we need to make sure there is no smoke involved

The 10250's have been battered and heavily tested under high stress. Like all products, as long as you use them within the guidelines, they are safe.

For absolute WOW, the XM-L is hard to beat. For tint afficionado's, the Nichia is very hard to match but it does come with a sacrifice of total output (until Nichia make an XM-L sized chip).

tgwnn

[the_guy_with_no_name]

Having just expired it's still probably good for a few more years, just as expired food items at the grocery are simply less expensive, but still edible.

If the bottle is flexible it's still good, but maybe you deserve a discount for being sold product expired a couple weeks ago.

Hi kaichu
Thanks very much.

I'll take two green ones! ;-)

+1
I already emailed you with the above info It still should be good for at least 6months past date with proper storage.
GL

Thanks GL

[Esko]

I really enjoy reading the "numbers" that you guys are spouting here Guy, Esko....I know just enough about most of this to recognize it and still nothing at all. So, with that said, let me share this. As I've said before I had JayRob build me a custom MagLite by cutting down a 2D body to hold 1 32650 Li-ion protected cell. There is a driver installed in a relatively large aluminum heat sink that let's the XM-L T6 put out approx 1000 lumens. I've had it a few months and typically only use it for a few minutes at a time. I have used it before to the point that the entire head of the MagLite heated up but not too much to hold on to. The point of this? My light is now showing a green tinge that was not there before. According to what I've been reading from your postings, this means that my XM-L T6 has been driven too hot and is damaged. Correct?

So I do appreciate the help you're giving Guy, Esko, and I very much want my new killer tiny ti light to be able to last under actual use. I also do not relish having a Li-ion cell explode or catch fire, even a tiny one! So by all means take your time and get this useable even at the cost of reducing the extreme WOW factor to a simple jaw dropping AWESOME!

Dale

Thanks for the nice words... Considering your light, the tint shift surely sounds like it may have overheated. But if the head hasn't been too hot to hold on, you should have been on safe side... Provided that the heatsink transfers the heat to the head well (tight metal on metal connections). If it doesn't, then it is another situation. As far as I know, modified Maglites may be tricky, since they haven't been originally engineered for such a use (the incans at least). I am not too familiar with the subject, I am sure someone else can help you better.

Previously, I tested the 10250 output at 2A with the following results:

Test	Time	Voltage	Current
10250 - n2		4.17	1.992
10250 - n2	1	4.10	1.992
10250 - n2	2	3.90	1.992
10250 - n2	3	3.76	1.992
10250 - n2	4	3.68	1.992
10250 - n2	5	3.63	1.992
10250 - n2	6	3.60	1.992
10250 - n2	7	3.56	1.992
10250 - n2	8	3.53	1.992
10250 - n2	9	3.51	1.997

After 30 seconds, the voltage was 3.2V

...

So yes, I agree the Nichia should be safe and regulated sufficiently by the battery but still recommended to keep the use on high to 10 Seconds and Max of 20 Seconds to prevent over-taxing the battery. I don't have all the test numbers here but I can re-test or find them later. I should mention I've run the batteries at the high amperage for > 60 seconds in my test unit, and with the 10440 for over 4 minutes but you should never do that in real life.

One other point to mention is that the XM-L has a larger surface area than the Nichia so this allows it to better handle the higher wattage in terms of heat.

tgwnn

Thanks for the interesting test results. Your cells certainly can deliver their juice fast (the chemistry, what is the battery chemistry and/or technology? ).

However, while it shows the battery capabilities well, this is not what happens with the led. At 4,1 volts (the first second), the current is 2A. At 3,76 volts (3rd second in the test), the current has already dropped to ~1,3A. At 3,5 volts (10 seconds), it is down to ~1A, and at 3,2 volts, it is ~0,5A. Of course, since the current draw goes down, the battery is depleted slower than in the test. It would be interesting if you could fix an actual led to a piece of copper and redo the test with it.

I must say that while the high cri Nichia is a very nice led, maybe it is not be the best possible choice for this kind of light...

Scrapped my idea

I was thinking red and green trits. If you hold the light the same way every time you can remember. red high. Green low.
Keep it nautical. Red left. Green n right. Hopefully the twists work in those directions.

A nice idea (I had thought that too), but since the body has no markings, you can't tell whether you are keeping the light body the same way as you did before. Unless you are already utilizing the method Guy described earlier (always turn on one direction to high -> back to off and the other direction to low -> back to off). And if you are doing that, you don't need the trits to tell you which way to turn.

Of course, it is still a nice choice for sailors and sailor-minded people.

[MiWaFreu]

This arrived today....

2x Ice Blue please

[MatNeh]

I would happily switch from Nichia to neutral XM-L if it means that the light will be significantly brighter and the LED is safer.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[the_guy_with_no_name]

Thanks for the interesting test results. Your cells certainly can deliver their juice fast (the chemistry, what is the battery chemistry and/or technology? ).

However, while it shows the battery capabilities well, this is not what happens with the led. At 4,1 volts (the first second), the current is 2A. At 3,76 volts (3rd second in the test), the current has already dropped to ~1,3A. At 3,5 volts (10 seconds), it is down to ~1A, and at 3,2 volts, it is ~0,5A. Of course, since the current draw goes down, the battery is depleted slower than in the test. It would be interesting if you could fix an actual led to a piece of copper and redo the test with it.

Hi Esko,

Thanks again.
The batteries are li-ion with zinc, carbon and a sprinkle of cobalt

2x Ice Blue please

I would happily switch from Nichia to neutral XM-L if it means that the light will be significantly brighter and the LED is safer.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Hi MatNeh,

The XM-L will easily be brighter.
Let me see if I can get some of those tints.
And anybody is most welcome to switch.

I foresee any safety issues with the Nichia beyond leaving it on high for extended periods but that goes for the XM-L's too.

tgwnn

[the_guy_with_no_name]

XM-L Neutral....

I found stock available of this bin:

XMLAWT-00-0000-000LT50E4
LED NTRL WHITE 4500K

It looks like one of the ones I tested previously in the Torpedo which was quite a nice tint also.
It will easily outdo the Nichia in terms of brightness and 400+ lumens should be within reach.

Please do sing out of you prefer this over the Nichia.

tgwnn

[Tixx]

XM-L Neutral....

I found stock available of this bin:

XMLAWT-00-0000-000LT50E4
LED NTRL WHITE 4500K

It looks like one of the ones I tested previously in the Torpedo which was quite a nice tint also.
It will easily outdo the Nichia in terms of brightness and 400+ lumens should be within reach.

Please do sing out of you prefer this over the Nichia.

tgwnn

+2 (one for each of my lights)

[MiWaFreu]

XM-L Neutral....

I found stock available of this bin:

XMLAWT-00-0000-000LT50E4
LED NTRL WHITE 4500K

It looks like one of the ones I tested previously in the Torpedo which was quite a nice tint also.
It will easily outdo the Nichia in terms of brightness and 400+ lumens should be within reach.

Please do sing out of you prefer this over the Nichia.

tgwnn

+1 (in case switching is also possible for XM-L preorders)

[DBCstm]

Singing out! This would be preferable for me as well, might have to use it in a pinch for a quick Photograph or two...never know!!

XM-L Neutral....

I found stock available of this bin:

XMLAWT-00-0000-000LT50E4
LED NTRL WHITE 4500K

It looks like one of the ones I tested previously in the Torpedo which was quite a nice tint also.
It will easily outdo the Nichia in terms of brightness and 400+ lumens should be within reach.

Please do sing out of you prefer this over the Nichia.

tgwnn

[MatNeh]

:thumbup: on neutral xm-l 4500k

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[climberkid]

Personally, if there is going to be heat issues for either the Nichia or XML I would like that one to have the host that conducts the most heat efficiently. I know in the small scale the differences would be minute, but it may still help I think.


-Alex

[Esko]

XM-L Neutral....

I found stock available of this bin:

XMLAWT-00-0000-000LT50E4
LED NTRL WHITE 4500K

It looks like one of the ones I tested previously in the Torpedo which was quite a nice tint also.
It will easily outdo the Nichia in terms of brightness and 400+ lumens should be within reach.

Please do sing out of you prefer this over the Nichia.

tgwnn

Well, it is a nice led, I think I already have two 400+ lm lights with it (T4 though). One of them is also the light that I use the most (at least if we count the runtime).

Anyway, I believe these lights would perform quite differently, so, thanks for the offer, I'd like to consider it a bit (and perhaps see some additional test results, too?).

[the_guy_with_no_name]

+2 (one for each of my lights)

+1 (in case switching is also possible for XM-L preorders)

Singing out! This would be preferable for me as well, might have to use it in a pinch for a quick Photograph or two...never know!!

:thumbup: on neutral xm-l 4500k

Personally, if there is going to be heat issues for either the Nichia or XML I would like that one to have the host that conducts the most heat efficiently. I know in the small scale the differences would be minute, but it may still help I think.
-Alex

Ok, just placed an order for 50 of those
Hopefully that should be enough to cover everyone who wants one.

You are welcome to change your emitter option as we still have time.
I'll send everyone a mail to offer you any additional choices when confirmed.

Well, it is a nice led, I think I already have two 400+ lm lights with it (T4 though). One of them is also the light that I use the most (at least if we count the runtime).

Anyway, I believe these lights would perform quite differently, so, thanks for the offer, I'd like to consider it a bit (and perhaps see some additional test results, too?).

Hi Esko,
Thanks for all your help with the Nichia analysis

tgwnn

[climberkid]

I'll switch my Ti version to the neutral for sure.
Like said, the Nichia I'd like in whichever between brass and Cu has the best thermal absorptive properties and the last with the neutral xm-l as well. As long as there is enough to go around.


-Alex

[MiWaFreu]

Hi,

I am planning to use my HF with the 10440 body. Does anybody have a good source for high drain 10440s?

@tgwnn: Maybe your battery manufacturer can provide some?


Michael

[aljebreensh]

Will absolutely prefer neutral XM-L. Looking forward to your email.

Saad

[the_guy_with_no_name]

I'll switch my Ti version to the neutral for sure.
Like said, the Nichia I'd like in whichever between brass and Cu has the best thermal absorptive properties and the last with the neutral xm-l as well. As long as there is enough to go around.

-Alex

Hi Alex,

Thanks and that should be fine.

Hi,

I am planning to use my HF with the 10440 body. Does anybody have a good source for high drain 10440s?

@tgwnn: Maybe your battery manufacturer can provide some?

Michael

Hi Michael,
The 10250 maker doesn't have that size available so it's extremely expensive to make from scratch.
I have another supplier I've ordered from before and the quality is reasonably good.
I can try and order a few more.

Will absolutely prefer neutral XM-L. Looking forward to your email.

Saad

Hi Saad,
Of course, thats fine.

tgwnn

[Henk_Lu]

I'll switch my Nichia 219 to XM-L neutral.

I really love the Nichia219 for it's tint, in my eyes it has the best tint that an LED ever emitted by now, absolutely wonderfull!

That doesn't mean however, that each and every flashlight should sport a Nichia 219 for me now. I have Two Peak Eiger, one XP-G neutral white and one Nichia 219, the tint is best on the Nichia of course, but the output category is won clearly by the XP-G. Now, if an XP-G beats it in output, you can imagine how an XM-L of teh same tint will make it look like...

The HF has been designed for power and I wondered why a Nichia 219 version should be done, I ordered it because of the tint, but it won't be a real HF, therefore it needs a neutral XM-L which you can push as far as the battery can survive without any damage!

[onthelake]

I'll switch my Nichia 219 to XM-L neutral.

I really love the Nichia219 for it's tint, in my eyes it has the best tint that an LED ever emitted by now, absolutely wonderfull!

That doesn't mean however, that each and every flashlight should sport a Nichia 219 for me now. I have Two Peak Eiger, one XP-G neutral white and one Nichia 219, the tint is best on the Nichia of course, but the output category is won clearly by the XP-G. Now, if an XP-G beats it in output, you can imagine how an XM-L of teh same tint will make it look like...

The HF has been designed for power and I wondered why a Nichia 219 version should be done, I ordered it because of the tint, but it won't be a real HF, therefore it needs a neutral XM-L which you can push as far as the battery can survive without any damage!

Well said!

TGWNN,

Please change all my nichia's to the XML neutral.

If that Norland works out.... I would love any color trits that you could provide.

Thanks,

OnTheLake

[the_guy_with_no_name]

I'll switch my Nichia 219 to XM-L neutral.

I really love the Nichia219 for it's tint, in my eyes it has the best tint that an LED ever emitted by now, absolutely wonderfull!

That doesn't mean however, that each and every flashlight should sport a Nichia 219 for me now. I have Two Peak Eiger, one XP-G neutral white and one Nichia 219, the tint is best on the Nichia of course, but the output category is won clearly by the XP-G. Now, if an XP-G beats it in output, you can imagine how an XM-L of teh same tint will make it look like...

The HF has been designed for power and I wondered why a Nichia 219 version should be done, I ordered it because of the tint, but it won't be a real HF, therefore it needs a neutral XM-L which you can push as far as the battery can survive without any damage!

Hi Henk_Lu,

Sure, and I agree.
Whilst the Nichia's have a lovely tint, a neutral XM-L will easily give a better HF effect

Well said!
TGWNN,
Please change all my nichia's to the XML neutral.
If that Norland works out.... I would love any color trits that you could provide.
Thanks,

OnTheLake

Hi onthelake,

Of course, happy to do that.
Re: trits, Im awaiting arrival of the production sized proto's to confirm the trit size and then I plan to arrange a trit option.
As always, please stay tuned

tgwnn

[the_guy_with_no_name]

Lumen test results just came back for direct drive (no resistor) for the Nichia's.

Nichia219
10250: 220lm (for first few seconds)
10440: 200lm (for first few seconds)

Of course, this will drop due to the higher voltage requirement after a few seconds.

Also, some results with no resistor for the XT-E

Cree XT-E
10250: 330lm (for first few seconds)
10440: 300lm (for first few seconds)


tgwnn

[Got Lumens?]

Lumen test results just came back for direct drive (no resistor) for the Nichia's.

Nichia219
10250: 220lm (for first few seconds)
10440: 200lm (for first few seconds)

Of course, this will drop due to the higher voltage requirement after a few seconds.

Also, some results with no resistor for the XT-E

Cree XT-E
10250: 330lm (for first few seconds)
10440: 300lm (for first few seconds)


tgwnn

Thanks Guy
OK. Bring on the XM-L results, mmmmmmmm.
GL

[Flyflash]

Wow! I ordered a brass XM-L because I wanted the lumens... Now that a neutral XM-L is an option, I would love to go that route! Change mine please

[the_guy_with_no_name]

Thanks Guy
OK. Bring on the XM-L results, mmmmmmmm.
GL

Hi GL,
About a week or so

Wow! I ordered a brass XM-L because I wanted the lumens... Now that a neutral XM-L is an option, I would love to go that route! Change mine please

Hi Flyflash,
sure, would be happy to.


One small thing I need to just mention.
As I did with the Nichia's, I may need to charge a (small) additional fee for the XM-L neutrals because I need to order these from a different supplier and the small quantity, shipping cost, additional test, etc ends up costing more than just the XM-L U2's.
It will be less than the Nichia premium (which was $8 more).

Swapping from Nichia to XM-L neutral (no extra charge required)
Swapping from XM-L U2 to XM-L neutral (small charge required)

I hope that would be acceptable.

Thanks,
tgwnn