Tritium zip pull..

[toby_pra]

Stjohn,

Dont go that way. Dont mess things up!!!
And NEVER subordinate me again to lie! There
is no need to send you my private documents.
I dont know you, the only thing i know is, that
you designed "randomly" a beadbomb like mine
and call it nearly same!

Sure i wont send you a copy of a legal document of my Geschmacksmuster
that protects my design for 5years from last autumm!!! There
is absolutly NO need for! I dont trust you!!! Also without a patent
it would be against the law to copy designs, as i already told
you several times! Its enuogh now!

[Nice65]

Guys,
I worked on my own design and developed it myself. I did not copy Toby's design. My 'bead bomb' is quite a bit different to Toby's. It is a progression from a number of models. When finished I will post it up and you can decide for yourselves...

cheers,
stjohn

I worked on my own design and developed it myself.

Only Post #1 shows any originality.

I did not copy Toby's design.

Yes you did.

My 'bead bomb' is quite a bit different to Toby's.

No it isn't, it's a blatant rip-off.

It is a progression from a number of models

Well, let's see them then.

It's a copy.

[nbp]

As I stated before, we are all visiting this thread because we like and want Ti trit beads! We don't hope to chase away a new member with the ability to create cool stuff for us!

We simply feel that the one proposed here is too similar to another one offered by an established member to support its production and sale.

I for one am still hoping for another design from stjohn that can appease our lust for Ti without steping on any toes.

I believe it can and should be done.

[jcalvert]

Hello Mr. St John Goldfinger,

I've been reading this thread since it’s inception July 15th, I am quite fascinated by your lack of expressed concern regarding what looks by many to be, at the very least, a highly questionable coincidence. Although I won't suggest you intentionally copied another's design, the similarities between the two beads are highly suspect. In an attempt to resolve this controversy, let's take a look at some relevant facts.

>In the OP (opening post) you state "I just designed and made a tritium zip pull". It contains four tritium cells, 2mmx10mm each".

>In post #9 you state, "Time wise it took about a week or two on and off to design and develop the idea then make the prototype".

>In post #15, only three days after introduction of the prototype, you state "ok, I have made some design changes! I will put up some pictures here to show you. I would like to take pre-orders if that is possible. It will be a 3 trit, titanium material, bead blast finish zip pull coming in at around 30 euros - 5 euro discount for pre-orders. anodising will also be possible (standard colours). Trits will be secured in place and protected with a clear potting compound (norland or similar). Shipping is from europe to anywhere".

>In post #20, you state, "I think this will be the final design (youtube animation) :http://youtu.be/k4UlwJQY42o I have spent quite a bit of time on this and have all the manufacturing processes in place ready to go". Taking pre-orders now for an approx 3/4 week delivery time.

> In post #58, you state, “many thanks for your reply. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts and comments even if mine differ. My thoughts disagree based on intellectual property law, not my personal opinion. My 'zip pull' is my own design, I put up the design for comment and feedback, not marketing and sale. I am not qualified to give feedback about i.p (intellectual property law) so I don't give it...
You may want to review what you wrote in post #15.

> In post #20, you stated, “The "final design" with a link to a YouTube animation of the bead. I can’t help being amazed by this substantial transformation from the prototype to this “final design”. My amazement extends further to the controversial likeness to Toby’s design.

> In post #22, you provide a picture of “the tritium bead bomb".

> The name of Toby's design, introduced in December, 2011 is the "Titanium-Bead-Bomb (The Tritiumbead).

> You live in Muenster, Germany.

> Toby lives in Berlin, Germany.

> Toby's design was posted on YouTube for the world to see On December 13, 2011.

> Toby posted his design for sale on the CPF Marketplace with two production runs. The first beginning 12/03/2011, with all units being sold by March, 2012, and the second commencing 4/01/2012 until all units sold in less than three weeks.

> In post #20 of Toby's first run sales thread here, Toby states, "Design is already patented". What he was attempting to describe is that he has essentially the German equivalent of a “design patent” for his Titanium-Bead-Bomb, known as the "Geschmackmuster". The Geschmackmuster refers to a registered community design, which provides protection from intellectual property theft for up to 25 years.

To legally circumvent Toby’s design, you would have to meet the EU’s standard for a new “Design”. Therefore, for your design not to be considered a violation, it would have to meet the standards for “Novel”, as well as “Individual Character” as defined by law, and furthermore judged as such by the “informed user”. I would argue that the majority of the CPF members who have posted on this thread, have clearly expressed that your design would not meet the aforementioned standards.

However, I would venture that many here would support “nbp’s” concisely stated sentiment in post #63 above. As I made clear in the beginning, I will not suggest you intentionally copied Toby’s design, as others have echoed. But if you persist down this path, you will have to accept the consequences which may include not being able to garner support for your position, or your zipper bead.

Those are some of the facts that firmly establish Toby's design was first out of the gate with a novel design of individual character, which is at the very least protected by the EU’s community design laws for intellectual property.

These same facts also quite convincingly suggest that your "final design" used proprietary elements of Toby's design. These elements, in particular the "sidepipes", are critical to the differentiation of Toby's design, which Toby has clearly stated is protected under German and EU law with his Geschmackmuster.

Again, I won't suggest you intentionally copied another's design, but I won't suggest you didn't. However, I would suggest you rethink your stance on the matter. You have better options, the most prudent of which may be to concede the similarities between your design and Toby's. Consistent with the claim you made in post #56, “I have acted perfectly honorably”, you should once again act honorably and simply scratch the design you choose to finalize for pre-orders, and use the considerable resources at your disposal. After all, as you stated in post #9, "Well my job is as a design and production engineer and this is what I do all the time. I also love doing it so that is a big advantage for me".

There is no point in exacerbating this controversy. Conflicts in design happen all the time, but then when designers come to realize they have inadvertently created a substantially similar design to a previously established one, as a matter of course and honor, it is common practice to concede these facts and move on.

There is a market here for anyone with a novel design, but it must be for something that does not incorporate any of Toby’s protected design elements, such that “informed users” won’t consider a copy. Use that big advantage you have declared to create a whole new and exciting design.

In fact, I'm really curious why you didn’t go with the prototype you showed us in the OP? As a zipper pull, the fact that the fours sides were slightly concave certainly made sense in terms of grip. And although the effectiveness of the tritium vials you used in the prototype would probably not be of much value as markers in my opinion, they are appealing to many here in this forum as a preferred design feature.

You might want to reconsider putting the prototype back up for consideration. But this time wait until you have sufficient feedback from members before you decide anything further.

Here’s hoping you decide on a do-over!

All the best,
John Calvert

[gunga]

I'd still like to see the final product. I'm also wondering how one patents a zipper pull?

[Silgt]

I will absolutely NOT condone blatant copying of another's product but we live in a real world where such thing happens and it is left to consumers to decide with their own wallets whether they support such kind of practice? Will I buy a badly made Chinese iPad clone? Most definitely not because the actual iPad is well designed and have a proprietary software (unique selling point) to make them different from those clones. But like Gunga mentioned, morality aside is it even possible to copyright a simple zip puller? how about daily used items such as buttons? zips? calculators? a phone's keypad? a fan?...you get the point I'm trying to make!

I'm sure it is not difficult for stjohn to come out with a few more interesting designs or shapes of zip puller and get on with quickly bringing them out to the market rather than being tied down with this copycat issues here. Bottom line is this is a small market for a low value item and its not worth the hassle to introduce solicitors or IP lawyers from both side. It is a no win situation for both parties and consumers if the situation remains a status quo for much longer.

I just wanna buy well designed, quality made tritium zip pullers at a reasonable price...can we get on with it???

[toby_pra]

Hi John!Where do you get to know, that the OP lives in Münster?Very very intersting...IRRC i sold a beadbomb to him in another forum with another sysonym.I appreciate your words and thuoghts very much. There are lotof questions that cant be really anwsered by the OP!@gunga I can patent anything i want! New thuoghts, ideas, designs etc. It is usually and not really a problem to patent thinks like azipper pull.@ silgtI really really would like to ask you, not to talk of a low budgetproduct...this is not really low budget and it stands for a lot of work. Every work and design.Btw, i asked i my first post here the OP for another design,if he has so much ideas and protos already it would be niceto see them. I already believe that we need more cool designsand edc gadgets here.

[Silgt]

Toby, your ideas, thoughts & expenses that you put in to design the original should be appreciated. I have not an opportunity to buy your beadbomb previously but we have traded a few lights & lanterns so I know the quality and what you stand for! so IF you have previously sold a beadbomb to stjohn, then it is without a doubt an attempt to blatantly copy your design and the argument should stop here! It is clearer now and you are correct...the OP should step forward and offer more clarification.

Anyway...please roll forward your BeadBomb version II...I'll be ready this time!

[toby_pra]

I am not really sure...but i remember the Name some way.
I need to check when i am back at home from my journey...

At the end i wanted to mention, that every unique design
stands for a lot of work.

[precisionworks]

At the end i wanted to mention that every unique design stands for a lot of work.

I'm eager to see your new design

[MoreToasties]

Hi John!Where do you get to know, that the OP lives in Münster?Very very intersting...IRRC i sold a beadbomb to him in another forum with another sysonym.

If that's the case, I think that's the final nail in the coffin. Even if you don't pursue legal action, I very much doubt that anyone here (and I suspect CPF is the #1 market for these things) will buy anything from Mr. St John given the facts.

[gunga]

Sorry, what is the relavance of living in Munster?

[jcalvert]

Hi John!Where do you get to know, that the OP lives in Münster?Very very intersting...IRRC i sold a beadbomb to him in another forum with another sysonym.

Hello Toby,

I hope all is well with you and yours!

To answer your question, Mr. Goldfinger himself opened the door to his identity in post #9 of this thread when he proclaimed himself as the inventor of "Schmoolz". A simple search of the Schmoolz website lead me to his Facebook page, where he includes his location as Muenster, Germany.

While looking through the Schmoolz website, I also noted the following paragraph extracted from the "Legal Stuff" page seen here.

Intellectual Property
7. The names, images and logos identifying the Schmoolz Company or third parties and their products and services are subject to copyright, design rights and trade marks of the Schmoolz Company. Nothing contained in these terms shall be construed as conferring by implication, estoppel or otherwise any licence or right to use any trademark, patent, design right or copyright of the Schmoolz Company.

Best wishes,
John

[jcalvert]

Hello gunga,

After a little research, I simply had a hunch, which "may" have been confirmed by Toby in post #67.

Regarding your question, "...I'm also wondering how one patents a zipper pull?" You may find this resource helpful.

John

[stjohn]

Wow! What can I say. That is a crazy story. Apologies for using a name Toby originally used. I thought it was a general term and had no idea that it would create such a storm or cause offense - I say that from a personal point of view, legally anyone can use that term. Thanks for you thoughts John, respectfully received but I would dispute them (not trying to be smart but just keeping it short and to the point). You must have spent quite a bit of time on that, you could simply have sent me an email, stjohn@technicalentry.com and I would have replied - please feel free to call me stjohn!

Intellectual property law is complicated and I have had to learn about it. I advise others to do the same if they are interested. I am not an expert but I have paid for expert advice which is why I know a little about it. Again I say I am not qualified in any way to comment on legal issues and will not do so. I have not tried to hide my identity and did not buy a bead bomb from Toby as he falsely claims.

As I already said I will produce final details when ready (if wanted) - I am ready but this thread made me think twice before posting them. I am confident I will be able to bring good products and new developments to this forum just like many other skilled guys here that people will want.

have a good evening!

cheers, stjohn

[Nice65]

Wow! What can I say. That is a crazy story. Apologies for using a name Toby originally used. I thought it was a general term and had no idea that it would create such a storm or cause offense - I say that from a personal point of view, legally anyone can use that term. Thanks for you thoughts John, respectfully received but I would dispute them (not trying to be smart but just keeping it short and to the point). You must have spent quite a bit of time on that, you could simply have sent me an email, stjohn@technicalentry.com and I would have replied - please feel free to call me stjohn!

Intellectual property law is complicated and I have had to learn about it. I advise others to do the same if they are interested. I am not an expert but I have paid for expert advice which is why I know a little about it. Again I say I am not qualified in any way to comment on legal issues and will not do so. I have not tried to hide my identity and did not buy a bead bomb from Toby as he falsely claims.

As I already said I will produce final details when ready (if wanted) - I am ready but this thread made me think twice before posting them. I am confident I will be able to bring good products and new developments to this forum just like many other skilled guys here that people will want.

have a good evening!

cheers, stjohn

Well, that seems to have addressed the issue. Well done.

[toby_pra]

stjohn,

its not the same name, its the sum of all points.

[Dizos]

As a consumer of titanium/tritium items I'm all for competition and innovation. However, design copying is bad for both. StJohn, you are a relatively new member here, I hope you do not tarnish your reputation in this way. If this is somehow just a really weird coincidence, IMO, you should still honor the fact that an established craftsman has already designed and offered a nearly identical item on this forum. To argue minor design differences flies in the face of the obvious. So if you are looking for consumer opinions, you got mine.

[stjohn]

Hi Dizos,
to be perfectly honest I just wanted to leave this be but it seems that is not to be the case. I will not be bullied. I enjoy designing products and will continue to do so - is that ok?
I have had at least 10 different people email me asking a variety of probing questions, presumably put up to this by Toby unless of course it is somehow just a weird coincidence...

Your posts: 144 in approximately 12 years..
My posts: 28 in two weeks..
I promise you I will add much to this community.

Established craftsmen - how come? Toby either deliberately misleads you guys here or knows nothing about machining. Read his posts. I am a mechanical engineer, all aspects of my product such as design, development and manufacture are controlled by me. If you want to believe things that simply are not true, suit yourself.

Copy: A duplicate, imitation, reproduction, or transcript of an original..
I pride myself on innovation, price and quality. When my product is available buy it or don't. It has a number of unique features never seen before. People who value the aforementioned virtues will decide for themselves.

Many thanks for your opinion, I respect and appreciate it. I give you some facts, not opinions..

have a great day.
cheers, Stjohn

[gunga]

Still looking forward to checking out your work st John.

[toby_pra]

Established craftsmen - how come? Toby either deliberately misleads you guys here or knows nothing about machining. Read his posts. I am a mechanical engineer, all aspects of my product such as design, development and manufacture are controlled by me. If you want to believe things that simply are not true, suit yourself.

HOW longe do i need to accept these insults and accusations???

Where mods are you?

I NEVER said that i am a engineer; i am leo. You have read my posts? Read my posts!
I always told that this is my design idea, a good freind of mine is an engineer and
converts my ideas and these will be milled by a german milling department
with an very good reputaion. That was never secret.

I do anodize, beadblast them, put lanyards on it, and i put the tritium in it, fix
it with norland, all learned by myself.

Whats your problem man!!! First you copy me design, then you blame me!

[Robocop]

Gentlemen I have not read through this thread completely however briefly skimming over it I can see there are some problems. I have no idea if any moderation has been issued however none the less it appears that there should be.

Honestly much of this should be discussed by PM and until I can read through all of it I suggest to all involved to simply stop with the drama. Mostly CPF has a policy to not become involved with private transactions however it is often necessary to moderate threads where the content of the thread will disrupt the group as a whole.

As far as any misconduct is concerned our members here are smart enough to decide on their own and should be allowed to do so without any insults or drama. Honestly I would like to catch up on this much more before taking any action. It may be possible that no action need be taken other than to warn everyone involved to remain civil. Again transactions between members usually work themselves out however rudeness, speculation, and insults will not be tolerated.

For now my response to this is more along the lines of a fellow member rather than that of a moderator. If there is in fact some type of patent violation by all means follow up with some action with the proper persons. If there is not proper evidence to support such a claim then it is what it is and each member can decide to either support or not support any certain person.

Again we at CPF will try hard to remain neutral on these type situations however if it becomes a source of trouble for the membership we will have no choice. I feel sure those involved know how to be adults and can resolve this without speculation or insults. Carry on gentlemen and allow me a little time to read through this please.

[toysareforboys]

Very professional reply Robocop!!

I hope you have a stronger opinion once you read the entire thread.

If I was a mod, as a "penalty" to St. John for coming up with such a "similar" design, punishment would be that St. John would have to give credit to, and a link to, any of Toby's current products (possibly not even related to the pulls, if he chooses to no longer manufacture them) in ANY of his posts, like every single post, maybe as a signature, as well as any "for sale" postings, etc.

Harsh I know, but hey, Toby was here first

And Toby, please, four crits in your new design!!!

-Jamie M.

[Silgt]

Why should St.John be "penalized" until he can show his final work and disclose his designing process? If he indeed did infringed on Toby's original design, then members will make their own choice with their wallets, or Toby could indeed take proper legal actions, or they could work it out by themselves. But I would think St.John, being an engineer should be able to come out with a different design with a unique signature all to its own so we don't have to have these dramas here!

I have not the privilege to hold Toby's original design but only seen them via photographs and at first glance they might looked similar but since St.John have already mentioned his design is different, and right now I am not in a position to tell until I can compare both side by side....work it out guys I don't think it is so bad that proper negotiations cannot take place behind the scene to resolve this. We the community will benefit with better and more cost effective products being made available!

[Robocop]

As a group we should not have to have to figure out the details of patents or design. Yes they are of very similiar design and I have no idea if they are different enough to satisfy any claimed patent filing. My point on this is simple and it is that if it is a valid violation then to the patent holder move forward with whatever decision you wish however do so away from this forum.

If it is a known violation then to you stjohn I suggest you make sure and know the rules of this forum on illegal activities. I am trying to stay neutral to both parties however if worst comes to worst I will shut down the entire process simply for no other reason than to keep our forum free from heated dispute.

As a fellow member I have my personal opinion that I will keep to myself. As a moderator again I must remain neutral and do what is best for this forum as a whole. Gentlemen I do feel for you both and again stress that this issue can be worked out in private. If legal action must follow it should not include the forum members as this will obviously create two distinct sides and lead to trouble among us all.

As far as any unique punishments are concerned we simply do not do that. The choices are simple as in it usually begins with a warning then advances to a few days away or if need be a permanent ban from our group. History has shown us that if we allow things to "brew" it results in major disruptions with the whole forum. I say this again to all involved simply do what is right. If you do not wish to do it for yourself or for me do it for the forum as a whole.

To the other spectators I understand your intentions may be good however to add speculation does nothing but cause others to do the same. Eventually we have many angry members over something that simply did not have to be. As far as new products and competition being good for us all I agree to a point. If it is a violation of criminal, civil, or patent laws then we would all be guilty of being selfish to allow that for our personal purchasing of new toys.

I have read this through and again as a member formed my own opinion. As a moderator I have no way of proving a violation exist and as such for now will warn all involved to keep this in private. If I have reason to move forward I will do so however keep in mind I do not need others piling on what they think we should do based on speculation.

I will discuss with my fellow mods and perhaps they may add something to this however for now it is simple.....keep the insults,speculation, and emotion away from this thread. Good luck gentlemen.

[toby_pra]

To me its simple...there is a similar design. In no
way different enuogh to talk of an own design. Many
people here think the same.

And as it is not by far enuogh he blames me and
talks of misleading. I cant believe it. He does not stop.
I thuoght its enuogh now...

[Robocop]

Toby trust me I understand however again if indeed you have a legal grounds in your country to move forward do so and I will keep the drama from this thread. If in fact I find reason to believe others are misleading our members or in violation of any laws I will take action.

I know many here think the same however allowing our members to choose sides is only asking for trouble in many ways. If the majority of our members agree with you they can do so in many ways other than stirring the pot here. This is an issue that can effect our group here in a positive way as much as a negative way. I assure you that if we allow our members to whip this into a frenzy it can only have one effect and that will be in a bad way.

I do agree it is enough now and as such I have stepped in to stop the insults and rude behavior. As far as the actual dispute we have no way of knowing the true details at this time. Give me a little time to discuss this issue and there may be future moderation coming. As for now I do trust my addition to this thread is very well understood.

To all other members please leave your opinions to yourself for now and to Toby and stjohn try to discuss this by PM or email. If you have anything to add or simply disagree please contact me by PM. I work late shift and will not be available until later tonight....thanks for the time.

After further thought I have decided to close this thread and ask any further discussion be taken to private.