Niteye Zip 20?

[madecov]

Can't really see this happening. CPF may be powerful among our relatively small flashlight lover's group, but the much broader worldwide market, with the allure of big profits, will likely win out, and they'll just ignore us. Would love to be proven wrong.

I would imagine that they have several hundred if not thousand units already produced. They will be sold before they either discontinue the model.

[fyrstormer]

I see this scandal has been kept burning brightly while I was off camping for the weekend.

The ZIP20 is an obvious, blatant copy of Cool Fall's design and I can understand why so many people are upset about it. However, I'm reminded of the McGizmo Lunasol, the first expensive titanium light I ever bought; anyone who has used one can tell you it functions the same way as the Surefire Aviator, even though the parts aren't interchangeable. In fact, the Piston Drive design used by the Lunasol lights was at least partly developed to avoid the possibility of infringing on Surefire patents that the earlier Aleph design was suspected of infringing upon. I don't recall anyone pitching a fit about that, though. Is it because the "knockoff" was more expensive than the original, and therefore it couldn't be called a cheap copy? Is it because the company that originally developed the Aviator design is a big faceless corporation, whereas the company that developed the SPY design is a guy in a garage? Is it because the Lunasol was made by an American company instead of a Chinese company? I have no idea, honestly, but these are the significant differences between the two scenarios that I'm aware of, and I wonder which reasons are responsible for the difference in response.

What I see from Niteye/Jetbeam's representatives here is a mad scramble to come up with an explanation of their organizational structure that makes sense. In all likelihood, they have never needed to answer the questions people are now asking, until now. An engineer designed the parts, a factory made the parts, a workshop assembled the parts, an advertising company printed the user manuals and posted pictures on the web, and that was it. The work got done and nobody worried too much about how. Give them time to figure out how to answer your questions, or if you're really impatient, hurry up and learn Chinese so you can get the facts directly.

Niteye should compensate Cool Fall for use of the SPY design. Cool Fall may refuse to accept a compensation deal, but the fact remains that the ZIP20 already exists and it's going to be sold eventually, somewhere in the world, so Cool Fall might as well make some money from it. In the meantime, if anyone wants a ZIP20 and feels guilty about it, they can always send Cool Fall a tip via Paypal to salve their conscience.

I worry that this is going to somehow ruin Shenzhen Jetbeam as a company. They have made some great products in the past and they don't deserve to disappear because of one dumb mistake. Even with the ripped-off SPY design, they added a grippier control knob and an infinitely-variable control, which frankly appeals to me more than the original design, so it's not like they lack talent of their own. I hope the products of their talent will continue to be available in the future.

[Phil Ament]

Hey there Viola-niteye. I've noticed that you are currently online and reading this thread, so how about answering some of the questions that have been asked!

[Phil Ament]

Hmmmm! Offline again now and once more, nothing but deafening silence!

[csshih]

I would imagine that they have several hundred if not thousand units already produced. They will be sold before they either discontinue the model.

they don't.

they're now talking with Data. I'm sure we'll get a response in a few days.

Craig

[Bigmac_79]

They're waiting to get everything worked out before they make a public announcement. Hang in there

[r-ice]

data will continue to make great new lights and make more, so let that company do whatever it's not as if they will end up going far anyways without any of their own innovations. If copying is the game then they will end up lagging behind everyone's sale.

If data and niteye are talking maybe this will be beneficial in giving the world 100 dollar 007's

[moozooh]

I completely agree with fyrstormer and r-ice. This issue needs to be taken with patience and dignity rather than getting angry and going for a pitchfork. So far it already resulted in a rather embarrassing conflict between JetBeam and Sysmax; ideally we need to get the best out of the situation, and affordable Spies with dimmer-like switches could be such outcome, for one. (Even though I personally consider the Zippo lighter shape and having the twisty on the same end as the emitter less ergonomic than it being a novelty thing.)

In any case I doubt Data's creativity would be exhausted on a five year old idea the 007 is. In a world of business competition you've gotta come up with new things all the time to keep yourself afloat, and it's about time to do that regardless of the outcome of the negotiations.

[127.0.0.1]

does the coolfall spy have WIPO paperwork ?

[Phil Ament]

They're waiting to get everything worked out before they make a public announcement. Hang in there

Well that's really great to hear. I wonder if it will end up being becoming a Nitespy or a Nitespeye!

[Bigmac_79]

Well that's really great to hear. I wonder if it will end up being becoming a Nitespy or a Nitespeye!

LOL, or the EYESpy

[Phil Ament]

LOL, or the EYESpy

Yes, that is a very good one too. Whatever the deal is that they came up with, I also really hope that Data/Dave ends up receiving considerably more than Zip from it!

[Pöbel]

Hey there Viola-niteye. I've noticed that you are currently online and reading this thread, so how about answering some of the questions that have been asked!

Who knows, maybe this person works for jetbeam but is not entitled to make announcements of such magnitude. I can understand that they wan't to keep track on the things being sad here on cpf. A hasty comment by an employee might make things worse.

So let's just wait until there is an answer. Whether that answer will be true or just a more perfected story... time will tell.

[Data]

. . .

they're now talking with Data. I'm sure we'll get a response in a few days.

Craig

Large companies can use a patent as grounds for litigation against those who would choose to steal their IP. Small companies can neither afford the patents themselves in the various required countries nor the litigation required to defend them in those countries. The world's legal system only protects large corporations. In some countries that doesn't work even for them.

We are not in negotiations. Negotiating with a company that is clearly untrustworthy is very unwise. They would like nothing more than to be able to say that they licensed my intellectual property and then pay me nothing.

The only reason that they can sell a copy of my SPY for $469 is because they stole the design. If they had had to invest in the years of design that I did there would be no profit in that price. Their business model cannot support compensating me and my business model. Cool fall Inc. sells SPY flashlights. That's all I do. I have no intention of giving it to Niteye. As long as I have support here on CPF I will fight Niteye every way I can for as long as it takes. Just as soon Nyteye gives me an assurance that they will cease and desist with the IP that they stole from Cool Fall Inc. I will let bygones be bygones and this entire discussion will end. At that point I will wish them well and hope that they utilize their own engineers to design their own products.

Thank you again everybody here on CPF for your incredible support.



Cheers
Dave

[Bigmac_79]

.... They would like nothing more than to be able to say that they licensed my intellectual property and then pay me nothing. ...

I'm disappointed to hear that's the stance they've taken. That's obviously not acceptable.

[127.0.0.1]

Large companies can use a patent as grounds for litigation against those who would choose to steal their IP. Small companies can neither afford the patents themselves in the various required countries nor the litigation required to defend them in those countries. The world's legal system only protects large corporations. In some countries that doesn't work even for them.

We are not in negotiations. Negotiating with a company that is clearly untrustworthy is very unwise. They would like nothing more than to be able to say that they licensed my intellectual property and then pay me nothing.

The only reason that they can sell a copy of my SPY for $469 is because they stole the design. If they had had to invest in the years of design that I did there would be no profit in that price. Their business model cannot support compensating me and my business model. Cool fall Inc. sells SPY flashlights. That's all I do. I have no intention of giving it to Niteye. As long as I have support here on CPF I will fight Niteye every way I can for as long as it takes. Just as soon Nyteye gives me an assurance that they will cease and desist with the IP that they stole from Cool Fall Inc. I will let bygones be bygones and this entire discussion will end. At that point I will wish them well and hope that they utilize their own engineers to design their own products.

Thank you again everybody here on CPF for your incredible support.



Cheers
Dave

OK then.

for me,

niteye off list


and i will not recommend any of them and if I hear
about any of them in conversation I will note the IP theft

--------------------------------------------------------
if my list above is inaccurate educate me on what to boycott

I like sunwayman, fenix, xtar, klarus

thanks

127.0.0.1

[Data]

OK then.

for me,

niteye off list
jetbeam off list
sysmax off list
nitecore off list

and i will not recommend any of them and if I hear
about any of them in conversation I will note the IP theft

--------------------------------------------------------
if my list above is inaccurate educate me on what to boycott

I like sunwayman, fenix, xtar, klarus

thanks

127.0.0.1

127.0.0.1,

Okay then, I would like to comment, that Sysmax should NOT be on the list. I'm sure we will hear more from them soon.

Cool Fall Inc. would only request that Niteye is on the list. A great many people here on CPF have posted about the business relationships between Nyteye and the others. I know nothing about that personally. As others have pointed out we must be careful. We dare not allow this to become a witch hunt.


Cheers
Dave

[KuanR]

Yeah after reading all the docs posted I think Nitecore owned by Sysmax is in the clear.

Nitecore comes up with their own designs, and with their PD lights, they paid royalties to Don to use that design.

[Serial Chiller]

The only reason why we would stop buying Niteye is to send a message and I think if we keep it limited to Niteye, the message will be as clear as it can be. We can't start boycotting other brands that might or might not be affiliated with Niteye. Not only because we might hit the wrong people, but also because the message might not be understood.

Nobody is going to see the Zip20 at the local hardware store and just put it in their cart. There are only few people who will ever hear about this flashlight, let alone be willing to pay the price for it. And those people are most likely part of some community, either here or somewhere else in the world. They will find out what's going on and I think many will decide not to buy it. Niteye is not going to sell many of these, we don't have to worry about that.

[fyrstormer]

I'm disappointed to hear that's the stance they've taken. That's obviously not acceptable.

Based on Data's wording, non-payment after negotiations was Data's speculation of a possible outcome, not an actual outcome. It's important to distinguish between what has happened and what might happen.

There seems to be a lot of "I heard something bad, and I'm feeling upset already, so the bad thing I heard must be true" going on. That does not reflect well on the intelligence of the CPF community. It's more in-line with what I would expect in an episode of Jersey Shore.

[kj2]

No Niteye for me

[Stumpy]

I'm done with Niteye too then and I'll avoid any retailers carrying the Zip 20. Lots of other good choices.

[crizyal]

The fact that they stole the design in the first place is enough for me to never give them any money for thier lights. If they paid royalties, I possibly would stop bad mouthing them but would still not ever trust them or purchase any of thier products.




Niteye = BLACKLISTED!

Edit: I will also avoid any dealers who sell Niteye products.

[Phil Ament]

Dave,

Whilst for your sake I am very saddened to hear that there apparently isn't going to be any upcoming announcements regarding any positive negotiations/arrangements between yourself and Niteye, contrary to what we had been recently led to believe, however I am extremely glad to see that you have very clearly stated the following points:

127.0.0.1,

Okay then, I would like to comment, that Sysmax should NOT be on the list. I'm sure we will hear more from them soon.

Cool Fall Inc. would only request that Niteye is on the list. A great many people here on CPF have posted about the business relationships between Nyteye and the others. I know nothing about that personally. As others have pointed out we must be careful. We dare not allow this to become a witch hunt.


Cheers
Dave

As can be seen below as well as on numerous other occasions, I had been trying to stress just how extremely important that I considered it to be that we were to ensure that any proposed retaliatory actions such as boycotting, would be solely directed towards the correct culprits and which should therefore not include Sysmax/Nitecore, however it unfortunately appears as though a number of people were just not prepared to really listen to what I had to say, although it is now becoming evident that if the statement comes directly from you that it seems to be considerably more effective!

Whilst I do fully agree with the fact that it is each individual person's right to decide if they were to boycott a particular company because they have blatantly copied a certain flashlight and because of all the grave injustices involved, I also find it quite disheartening that it appears as though a number of people have also decided to include manufacturers or their products who have not yet been proven to have had anything to do with any aspect of the SPY007 copy/clone in question. As far as I am concerned this would just end up being another grave injustice performed, and I would really hate to see any company or individual being penalised for something that they have not done, because as far as I am aware as yet there has been no such proof that Sysmax/Nitecore has had anything to do with this SPY007 copying/cloning in any way shape or form.

I would also just like to remind people about the concept of "Innocent until proven guilty", meaning that the guilt of an accused person/party cannot be presumed and that they must be assumed to be innocent until proven otherwise. Also according to the legal system this principle is vital because, in the words of famous jurist William Blackstone, “the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”. Even though that for us this may not be a legal battle as such, however I do very strongly hope that the same principles of fairness would still apply!

May I also suggest that the time might just possibly be right for a Niteye Jeers thread to be started, so as to make as many CPF and CPFMP members as possible aware of this particular situation, so that they can then too decide if they themselves were to choose to participate in any boycotting of Niteye and it's products. I would also like to recommend that it would be most apt for you to be the one to start it, however this particular point is only a suggestion.


Lastly, even though I have not had the good fortune to have been a Cool Fall Inc customer as of yet, I really do hope that you may consider that I have been of some assistance in this thread, no matter how small that it may be.



P.S. I also note that on several occasions you have incorrectly typed Nyteye instead of Niteye, and even though it is most probably just a typo I just thought that I should point it out so as to help avoid any possible confusion, especially due to the seriousness of this particular subject!

[Bigmac_79]

...May I also suggest that the time might just possibly be right for a Niteye Jeers thread to be started...

Data (or anyone else who has evidence to prove otherwise) may correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Niteye has not yet actually put the Zip20 into production and sold it as their own. If I interpret this post from Data correctly now (I think I misread it earlier) ->>

...We are not in negotiations. Negotiating with a company that is clearly untrustworthy is very unwise. They would like nothing more than to be able to say that they licensed my intellectual property and then pay me nothing...

... then Data has chosen not to enter into negotiations with Niteye because he doesn't trust them (which, in my opinion, he is well within his rights to decide).

So, Niteye used Data's Spy design to design their Zip20, we got upset about it, they asked Data to negotiate for rights to the design, Data declined to negotiate for the rights.

Now, we are waiting to find out if Niteye will respect Data's decision. If they don't respect his decision, it may well be time to consider jeering, but in my opinion, they still have the chance to do the right thing.

[Bullzeyebill]

May I also suggest that the time might just possibly be right for a Niteye Jeers thread to be started......

Any member can start a jeers thread as long as they follow the rules for a jeers thread. Looking at this thread and the insinuations that have been brought forward, it would seem to be redundant to start a jeers thread and provide all of the backup info, again, in a new thread. It is be best to just continue this thread, and use it for new developments as they occur.

Bill

[rufus001]

Thanks for the thoughtful post Data! Great to see a well reasoned post amongst all the rabble rousing.

[turboBB]

I'm done with Niteye too then and I'll avoid any retailers carrying the Zip 20. Lots of other good choices.

Edit: I will also avoid any dealers who sell Niteye products.

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

[nbp]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

I agree with this. ^^^

[sassaquin]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

Well said.