In god we trust.........all others are suspects
There are no problems in life that can not be solved with high explosives or small arms
Too many new lights to list
I see this scandal has been kept burning brightly while I was off camping for the weekend.
The ZIP20 is an obvious, blatant copy of Cool Fall's design and I can understand why so many people are upset about it. However, I'm reminded of the McGizmo Lunasol, the first expensive titanium light I ever bought; anyone who has used one can tell you it functions the same way as the Surefire Aviator, even though the parts aren't interchangeable. In fact, the Piston Drive design used by the Lunasol lights was at least partly developed to avoid the possibility of infringing on Surefire patents that the earlier Aleph design was suspected of infringing upon. I don't recall anyone pitching a fit about that, though. Is it because the "knockoff" was more expensive than the original, and therefore it couldn't be called a cheap copy? Is it because the company that originally developed the Aviator design is a big faceless corporation, whereas the company that developed the SPY design is a guy in a garage? Is it because the Lunasol was made by an American company instead of a Chinese company? I have no idea, honestly, but these are the significant differences between the two scenarios that I'm aware of, and I wonder which reasons are responsible for the difference in response.
What I see from Niteye/Jetbeam's representatives here is a mad scramble to come up with an explanation of their organizational structure that makes sense. In all likelihood, they have never needed to answer the questions people are now asking, until now. An engineer designed the parts, a factory made the parts, a workshop assembled the parts, an advertising company printed the user manuals and posted pictures on the web, and that was it. The work got done and nobody worried too much about how. Give them time to figure out how to answer your questions, or if you're really impatient, hurry up and learn Chinese so you can get the facts directly.
Niteye should compensate Cool Fall for use of the SPY design. Cool Fall may refuse to accept a compensation deal, but the fact remains that the ZIP20 already exists and it's going to be sold eventually, somewhere in the world, so Cool Fall might as well make some money from it. In the meantime, if anyone wants a ZIP20 and feels guilty about it, they can always send Cool Fall a tip via Paypal to salve their conscience.
I worry that this is going to somehow ruin Shenzhen Jetbeam as a company. They have made some great products in the past and they don't deserve to disappear because of one dumb mistake. Even with the ripped-off SPY design, they added a grippier control knob and an infinitely-variable control, which frankly appeals to me more than the original design, so it's not like they lack talent of their own. I hope the products of their talent will continue to be available in the future.
Last edited by fyrstormer; 08-06-2012 at 01:43 AM.
Hey there Viola-niteye. I've noticed that you are currently online and reading this thread, so how about answering some of the questions that have been asked!
Hmmmm! Offline again now and once more, nothing but deafening silence!
data will continue to make great new lights and make more, so let that company do whatever it's not as if they will end up going far anyways without any of their own innovations. If copying is the game then they will end up lagging behind everyone's sale.
If data and niteye are talking maybe this will be beneficial in giving the world 100 dollar 007's
I completely agree with fyrstormer and r-ice. This issue needs to be taken with patience and dignity rather than getting angry and going for a pitchfork. So far it already resulted in a rather embarrassing conflict between JetBeam and Sysmax; ideally we need to get the best out of the situation, and affordable Spies with dimmer-like switches could be such outcome, for one. (Even though I personally consider the Zippo lighter shape and having the twisty on the same end as the emitter less ergonomic than it being a novelty thing.)
In any case I doubt Data's creativity would be exhausted on a five year old idea the 007 is. In a world of business competition you've gotta come up with new things all the time to keep yourself afloat, and it's about time to do that regardless of the outcome of the negotiations.
does the coolfall spy have WIPO paperwork ?
posted by jh333233
Dont cheat me, im expert in using crap light
So let's just wait until there is an answer. Whether that answer will be true or just a more perfected story... time will tell.
We are not in negotiations. Negotiating with a company that is clearly untrustworthy is very unwise. They would like nothing more than to be able to say that they licensed my intellectual property and then pay me nothing.
The only reason that they can sell a copy of my SPY for $469 is because they stole the design. If they had had to invest in the years of design that I did there would be no profit in that price. Their business model cannot support compensating me and my business model. Cool fall Inc. sells SPY flashlights. That's all I do. I have no intention of giving it to Niteye. As long as I have support here on CPF I will fight Niteye every way I can for as long as it takes. Just as soon Nyteye gives me an assurance that they will cease and desist with the IP that they stole from Cool Fall Inc. I will let bygones be bygones and this entire discussion will end. At that point I will wish them well and hope that they utilize their own engineers to design their own products.
Thank you again everybody here on CPF for your incredible support.
niteye off list
and i will not recommend any of them and if I hear
about any of them in conversation I will note the IP theft
if my list above is inaccurate educate me on what to boycott
I like sunwayman, fenix, xtar, klarus
Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 08-06-2012 at 02:29 PM.
posted by jh333233
Dont cheat me, im expert in using crap light
Okay then, I would like to comment, that Sysmax should NOT be on the list. I'm sure we will hear more from them soon.
Cool Fall Inc. would only request that Niteye is on the list. A great many people here on CPF have posted about the business relationships between Nyteye and the others. I know nothing about that personally. As others have pointed out we must be careful. We dare not allow this to become a witch hunt.
Yeah after reading all the docs posted I think Nitecore owned by Sysmax is in the clear.
Nitecore comes up with their own designs, and with their PD lights, they paid royalties to Don to use that design.
The only reason why we would stop buying Niteye is to send a message and I think if we keep it limited to Niteye, the message will be as clear as it can be. We can't start boycotting other brands that might or might not be affiliated with Niteye. Not only because we might hit the wrong people, but also because the message might not be understood.
Nobody is going to see the Zip20 at the local hardware store and just put it in their cart. There are only few people who will ever hear about this flashlight, let alone be willing to pay the price for it. And those people are most likely part of some community, either here or somewhere else in the world. They will find out what's going on and I think many will decide not to buy it. Niteye is not going to sell many of these, we don't have to worry about that.
There seems to be a lot of "I heard something bad, and I'm feeling upset already, so the bad thing I heard must be true" going on. That does not reflect well on the intelligence of the CPF community. It's more in-line with what I would expect in an episode of Jersey Shore.
Last edited by fyrstormer; 08-06-2012 at 03:53 PM.
I'm done with Niteye too then and I'll avoid any retailers carrying the Zip 20. Lots of other good choices.
The fact that they stole the design in the first place is enough for me to never give them any money for thier lights. If they paid royalties, I possibly would stop bad mouthing them but would still not ever trust them or purchase any of thier products.
Niteye = BLACKLISTED!
Edit: I will also avoid any dealers who sell Niteye products.
Whilst for your sake I am very saddened to hear that there apparently isn't going to be any upcoming announcements regarding any positive negotiations/arrangements between yourself and Niteye, contrary to what we had been recently led to believe, however I am extremely glad to see that you have very clearly stated the following points:
As can be seen below as well as on numerous other occasions, I had been trying to stress just how extremely important that I considered it to be that we were to ensure that any proposed retaliatory actions such as boycotting, would be solely directed towards the correct culprits and which should therefore not include Sysmax/Nitecore, however it unfortunately appears as though a number of people were just not prepared to really listen to what I had to say, although it is now becoming evident that if the statement comes directly from you that it seems to be considerably more effective!
May I also suggest that the time might just possibly be right for a Niteye Jeers thread to be started, so as to make as many CPF and CPFMP members as possible aware of this particular situation, so that they can then too decide if they themselves were to choose to participate in any boycotting of Niteye and it's products. I would also like to recommend that it would be most apt for you to be the one to start it, however this particular point is only a suggestion.
Lastly, even though I have not had the good fortune to have been a Cool Fall Inc customer as of yet, I really do hope that you may consider that I have been of some assistance in this thread, no matter how small that it may be.
P.S. I also note that on several occasions you have incorrectly typed Nyteye instead of Niteye, and even though it is most probably just a typo I just thought that I should point it out so as to help avoid any possible confusion, especially due to the seriousness of this particular subject!
Last edited by Phil Ament; 08-06-2012 at 07:29 PM.
So, Niteye used Data's Spy design to design their Zip20, we got upset about it, they asked Data to negotiate for rights to the design, Data declined to negotiate for the rights.
Now, we are waiting to find out if Niteye will respect Data's decision. If they don't respect his decision, it may well be time to consider jeering, but in my opinion, they still have the chance to do the right thing.
Thanks for the thoughtful post Data! Great to see a well reasoned post amongst all the rabble rousing.
A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.