Niteye Zip 20?

[Bigmac_79]

Well said.

Yep.

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse brevity and typos.

[KuanR]

Phil, thank you for taking the time to go through all the research of the companies. Because of that, that's why I feel comfortable saying Sysmax/Nitecore should be in the clear.

Boycotting the wrong people/small distributors will cause unnecessary damage to innocent "bystanders"

[pjandyho]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

Very good!

[arewethereyetdad]

I'm reminded of the McGizmo Lunasol, the first expensive titanium light I ever bought; anyone who has used one can tell you it functions the same way as the Surefire Aviator, even though the parts aren't interchangeable. In fact, the Piston Drive design used by the Lunasol lights was at least partly developed to avoid the possibility of infringing on Surefire patents that the earlier Aleph design was suspected of infringing upon. I don't recall anyone pitching a fit about that, though. Is it because the "knockoff" was more expensive than the original, and therefore it couldn't be called a cheap copy? Is it because the company that originally developed the Aviator design is a big faceless corporation, whereas the company that developed the SPY design is a guy in a garage? Is it because the Lunasol was made by an American company instead of a Chinese company? I have no idea, honestly, but these are the significant differences between the two scenarios that I'm aware of, and I wonder which reasons are responsible for the difference in response.

Don McLeish and Surefire worked together on a number of designs. Don's brilliance and influence show up in a number of Surefire products.

[Phil Ament]

Phil, thank you for taking the time to go through all the research of the companies. Because of that, that's why I feel comfortable saying Sysmax/Nitecore should be in the clear.

Boycotting the wrong people/small distributors will cause unnecessary damage to innocent "bystanders"

KuanR


Thank you very much for saying that as it is comforting to know that someone really does appreciate it, especially seeing as though I did have to spend quite a considerable amount of time and effort just to try and piece together all of the relevant information so that I could present it to all involved, and so it is very nice to know that someone actually took the time to specifically thank me for it. Once again it is very much appreciated!

[dudemar]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

I agree.

[madecov]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

many of us purchased Niteye products long before this fiasco came to light (pun intended). I am sure some of the dealers have large inventories, especially those who purchased into the Eye 30 and possibly the 40. A scandal like this can really hurt financially.

[rufus001]

KuanR


Thank you very much for saying that as it is comforting to know that someone really does appreciate it, especially seeing as though I did have to spend quite a considerable amount of time and effort just to try and piece together all of the relevant information so that I could present it to all involved, and so it is very nice to know that someone actually took the time to specifically thank me for it. Once again it is very much appreciated!

You were a voice of sanity in a storm of emotion!

[crizyal]

I would return to using said dealers as soon as they dropped the complete Niteye line.

Not mob mentality, power of the purse.

[Stumpy]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

Let me be clear here. I'm not interested in punishing anyone but reserve the right to spend my money as I see fit.I said if a dealer carries the Zip20 I just won't deal with them. As far as dealers who carry Niteye but not the Zip20, yes I'll deal with them on other products. We are not dealing with just a few copied features here, Niteye copied the light with out even attempting to provide some sort of compensation.

[run4jc]

I don't believe it's fair to ostracize dealers (especially those who are part of the flashaholic community) when they had no involvement with Niteye's product decisions. If per Stumpy's explicit condition about them carrying the Zip20 specifically, then perhaps that's fair but to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme. While I may not know Craig or Mark on a personal level, I'm reasonably confident they would never willingly partake in disrespecting others' IP.

A few dealers have been long standing members and contributors and are small setups who can not afford to be boycotted for something beyond their control. It would be sad to see their business suffer for nothing more than mob mentality.

Yeah, I gotta agree with this, too. Classic case in point - Craig noted that he warned Niteye about the Zip20 - we all know Craig is a stand up guy and a great dealer. If nothing else, this is all the more reason to support Craig. I've not had any dealings with any other US based Niteye dealer.

My personal belief is that this issue continues to have 'legs' because of the support that this community shows our members, modders, builders, dealers, etc.

Dave - and Craig - certainly represent the highest possible standards, and both will continue to receive my support.

[Esko]

The only reason why we would stop buying Niteye is to send a message and I think if we keep it limited to Niteye, the message will be as clear as it can be. We can't start boycotting other brands that might or might not be affiliated with Niteye. Not only because we might hit the wrong people, but also because the message might not be understood.

We surely should avoid boycoting wrong companies. At the same time though, if someone is operating through multiple companies and brands, I see no reason why we should support the other ones either. It is a much too common practice in construction industry. Operate through multiple companies, and if you get burned with one, just rescue the funds, file a bankruptcy and continue through other companies.

For example:

I like sunwayman, fenix, xtar, klarus

Klarus copied 4Sevens Revo and have built a whole product line based on it. At the same time and due to the stealing of IP, 4Sevens decided to discontinue the model (or possibly model line - there was at least an AA prototype in the works before the discontinuation was announced). That made me put Klarus to my blacklist.

It was some 1½ years ago, and I had already started to think that I might end my boycott. What happens? Niteyegate breaks out and I can see, that Klarus and Niteye are somehow linked together by the same persons through trademark ownership. Klarus stays on blacklist. It seems to be a strong part of their business model and as a consumer, I see no reason to support any of their companies, trademarks or products.

edit: For the television series, I'd like to suggest the name "Sopranos".

[Colonel Sanders]

"to punish dealers who simply carry the Niteye line, I think that is being a bit extreme."

You of course have the right to feel that way just as everyone has the right to feel, and therefore spend, as they deem fits. Each will vote with his/her wallet. Dealers that continue to sell Niteye will obviously be affected by people's feelings on their decision to continue selling Niteye products no matter what anyone else feels is appropriate or not. What will be, will be.

Myself, I understand there are plenty of dealers currently with (or perhaps stuck with) Niteye products so my wallet will take that into account...grace will be given. Some time must be expected to sell off this tainted brand before any dealer boycott starts for me. However, the grace, for me at least, will last but for so long.

[crizyal]

Myself, I understand there are plenty of dealers currently with (or perhaps stuck with) Niteye products so my wallet will take that into account...grace will be given. Some time must be expected to sell off this tainted brand before any dealer boycott starts for me. However, the grace, for me at least, will last but for so long.

I can definitely see the validity of this point. With that being said I would suggest that reputable dealers try to dump said tainted merchandise ASAP. I would hate to have made a large investment in a up and comming company that craps all over it's own integrity like Niteye has. It clearly isn't the dealers fault. If the dealers continued to do further business with Niteye, it would be a case of "guilt by association".

[skatenut]

I admit to being totally confused by this Niteye-Sysmax-JETBeam chaos. Having two JETBeam lights myself I'd be sorry to see that company disappear, they certainly produced some good lights.

Finding an apparent Spy007 (at first glance!) on a German flashlight dealer's page simply took my breath away initially. Even as a beginning flashie, I have heard about Spy007 lights. Eventually, read thru two long posts here about the Niteye Zip 20 and I'm definitely not going to buy one, period. I'll start to look for my second custom light now, the real thing, not an imitation! Think it's a shame Dave doesn't get any royalties and I'm against blatant rip-offs.

[shelm]

Edit: I will also avoid any dealers who sell Niteye products.

But dont avoid future buyers of Niteye products. Your friends might be among them

[Endeavour]

Yeah after reading all the docs posted I think Nitecore owned by Sysmax is in the clear.

Nitecore comes up with their own designs, and with their PD lights, they paid royalties to Don to use that design.

Really? They come up with their own designs? Like when they copied the switching mechanism I developed and general format of the Aeon and released a line of lights marketed by their distributor as an inexpensive version of the product that I made without requesting a license (which they would not have been given)?

Give me a break, these guys are all rolling in it together, and have been pilfering designs from people offering custom products on this forum for years. This is just the latest and most visible case to date. The fact that they paid one person a token fee so they could use their name for marketing on the CPF does not give them carte blanche.

Enrique

[KuanR]

Sorry I haven't been around for long enough. I didn't know what the Aeon was and it wasn't until you came out with a new batch that I realized how similar the design was.

[It01Firefox]

Also, have you ever compared the (now discontinued) 4sevens revo and the Nitecore T-series.
The revo was discontinued for a reason.

[KuanR]

I take back what I said about Nitecore...just saw their latest release and it's basically the same light as Jetbeam.

I'm starting to think these companies intentionally started all the drama. Like Enrique said, they're rolling in it together

[Erzengel]

Regarding Nitecore and JETBeam, the German distributor of Sysmax stated on German messerforum.net that Sysmax has registered the JETBeam brand in Europe (EU?) and that the founders of Sysmax and Niteye are now fighting over the JETBeam brand rights. Sysmax claims to own most of the intellectual property and innovation (no further information on that) and will continue to sell the JETBeam products under the Nitecore brand name. There will be no more JETBeam lights sold in Europe in the future.
This doesn't answer all questions but it explains why many former JETBeam lights are now sold as Nitecore lights.

Regarding the Nitecore T-Series and the Preon ReVo, there was a thread on the ReVo discontinuitation where some members pointed to another manufacturer which also sells lights looking like the ReVo and I recall to have seen them before the T-Series lights.

[fyrstormer]

When you grow up in a culture with little or no concept of intellectual property, ruled by a legal system in which almost everything belongs to the nation, I imagine the idea that someone can invent something, sell it to the public, and still claim to own it, seems rather absurd.

[madecov]

I'm not happy withis entire situation at all. I purchased two models of Niteye well before this happened. As a relatively new dealer I am stuck with several hundreds of dollars of product that isn't moving from a company that I'm pretty sure can't be trusted. It becomes a catch 22 since some members here say they won't buy from dealers who have Niteye but yet if we don't list it then we can't get rid of it.

[KuanR]

Sorry to hear about your situation. I am definitely not one of those people, I'm waiting patiently for your incoming Crelant new products.

[127.0.0.1]

I'm not happy withis entire situation at all. I purchased two models of Niteye well before this happened. As a relatively new dealer I am stuck with several hundreds of dollars of product that isn't moving from a company that I'm pretty sure can't be trusted. It becomes a catch 22 since some members here say they won't buy from dealers who have Niteye but yet if we don't list it then we can't get rid of it.

ebay it out of inventory

[madecov]

ebay it out of inventory

Trust me... It isn't doing to well there either. I'll probably end up taking a loss on the deal.

[Ualnosaj]

I'm not happy withis entire situation at all. I purchased two models of Niteye well before this happened. As a relatively new dealer I am stuck with several hundreds of dollars of product that isn't moving from a company that I'm pretty sure can't be trusted. It becomes a catch 22 since some members here say they won't buy from dealers who have Niteye but yet if we don't list it then we can't get rid of it.

We almost bit the bullet. They were doing so well (and still soliciting). It'll take some time to settle but by then the models you have are probably obsolete. Granted you can now sell below MAP to clear them out and I'm sure lots will bite at the right price...



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Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse the brevity of this message.

[jasonck08]

IMO all current Niteye dealers should send a direct email to niteye informing them that they will not be placing any future orders unless the Zip 20 is no longer for sale.

I think its probably the most simple yet effective way to try and convince Niteye to stop with the zip 20.

[nbp]

Here's how you support ethical businessmen. Instead of getting the imitations based on stolen ideas, why not get the real things? Buy lights and parts from McGizmo, Muyshondt, Cool Fall, TnC, Mac and our other Custom builders. You can find their designs copied in many foreign brands, like Jetbeam, Nitecore, Niteye etc. Save your pennies and support the true innovators and craftsmen who made them first. These lights are a pleasure to use each and every time you pick them up.



I think the only foreign lights I own anymore are a couple AAA Fenixes as they pretty much seem to stay out of the drama and the E01 and LD01 are just too good to get rid of.

[It01Firefox]

Regarding the Nitecore T-Series and the Preon ReVo, there was a thread on the ReVo discontinuitation where some members pointed to another manufacturer which also sells lights looking like the ReVo and I recall to have seen them before the T-Series lights.

I don't get the point you're making, are you saying "hey somebody else copied the design before they did, so now it's fair game"?