Need upgrade for 2005 Toyota Matrix.

[tebore]

I already cleaned up the lenses. Now I was thinking of two options.

I can do 9012HIRs in the 9006s or put 9005's in to the old 9006s. To go with it would be new relays and wires.

Or I can do a projector retrofit which is more labour intensive. (I can understand the talk behind this won't be permitted here.)

The car also had options for 9006 powered Fogs. Which makes them actually useful as fogs I can get them and wire them up to use them as actual fogs.

Basically my uses are going to be on 2 lane roads travelling at least 80km/h (55MPH) which no street lighting and possibly small wildlife.

Inclement weather will be huge down pours and near white out conditions in the winter.

I'm looking for suggestions for the best legal improvements and debate that over the "illegal" HID projector retrofit.

[Alaric Darconville]

...or put 9005's in to the old 9006s.

No, putting a 9005 into a lamp designed for a 9006 is not an option. This post by Scheinwerfermann sums up the reasons.

To go with it would be new relays and wires.

Those can be a good idea, but first you should measure your voltage drop under load, in accordance with the information here. There may be a limited gain to be had with the wiring upgrade.

Or I can do a projector retrofit which is more labour intensive. (I can understand the talk behind this won't be permitted here.)

Unless you can get a factory set of HID projectors for RHT jurisdictions (do they even exist for that Matrix?), you really shouldn't bother. The Matrix already has decent headlamps, made by Koito or NAL, there's no need to try to 'upgrade' anything.

The car also had options for 9006 powered Fogs. Which makes them actually useful as fogs I can get them and wire them up to use them as actual fogs.

Factory fog lamps are generally not much better than toys. At any rate, they should only be used at low speeds (25mph/40kmh or lower), and in actual foggy conditions-- not just because it's dark and you think you'll "see better".

Basically my uses are going to be on 2 lane roads travelling at least 80km/h (55MPH) which no street lighting and possibly small wildlife.

Definitely not a time for fog lamps.

Inclement weather will be huge down pours and near white out conditions in the winter.

A single REAR fog lamp will have more utility than front fog lamps. You'll need it because the jerk with the front fog lamps thinks he now has carte blanche to drive too fast for conditions due to the Aweſome Majickſ of the fog lamps and will rear-end you.

[fyrstormer]

Fog lamps don't shine light far ahead of you, so they will do nothing at high speeds. Fog lamps illuminate the ground immediately in front of the car, to compensate for near-zero visibility in extremely bad weather. What you're thinking of are auxiliary driving lamps, which vary in legality from one country to another, one state to another, even one city to another. Auxiliary driving lamps are routinely abused by people who think the world is a safer place as long as the road in front of them looks like daytime, to hell with anyone else's ability to see, and that's why they're usually illegal.

My VW Passat had a rear fog lamp -- well, actually it didn't, until I installed the wiring to enable the rear fog lamp socket in the OEM taillight assembly. It saved my bacon several times. Rear-left is the best location, because that's what will be seen by someone trying to pull into your lane after passing the guy behind you. Dual rear fog lamps might seem like a better idea, but actually the asymmetry of the single rear fog lamp catches more people's attention, which is what you want.

Whatever you end up doing, remember that being able to see better doesn't mean it's safe to drive faster. If poor visibility during bad weather has you on-edge, that means your instincts are working properly. If your headlight lenses are foggy, just buy new ones; brighter headlights behind foggy lenses will accomplish nothing useful.

[Scheinwerfermann]

auxiliary driving lamps

Formally known as auxiliary high beam lamps...

vary in legality from one country to another, one state to another

Yes...

even one city to another

...No.

Auxiliary driving lamps are routinely abused by people

Even counting aftermarket installations, very few vehicles have "driving" (auxiliary high beam) lamps. On the other hand, a lot of vehicles have fog lamps, and those are widely abused.

that's why {driving lamps are} usually illegal.

Auxiliary high beam ("driving") lamps are generally not illegal if they are mounted, aimed, hooked up, and used correctly.

My VW Passat had a rear fog lamp -- well, actually it didn't, until I installed the wiring to enable the rear fog lamp socket in the OEM taillight assembly. It saved my bacon several times. Rear-left is the best location, because that's what will be seen by someone trying to pull into your lane after passing the guy behind you. Dual rear fog lamps might seem like a better idea, but actually the asymmetry of the single rear fog lamp catches more people's attention, which is what you want.

Specifically, a single rear fog lamp is much less likely to obscure the stop (brake) lights' message. It should be clarified for the original poster that a rear fog lamp emits red light and, like all vehicle lighting devices, is specifically designed for its function. Just any ol' red light will [b]not[/]b do the job.

Whatever you end up doing, remember that being able to see better doesn't mean it's safe to drive faster. If poor visibility during bad weather has you on-edge, that means your instincts are working properly. If your headlight lenses are foggy, just buy new ones; brighter headlights behind foggy lenses will accomplish nothing useful.

The Matrix already has decent headlamps, made by Koito or NAL, there's no need to try to 'upgrade' anything.

Definitely good advice. And they really need to be genuine Toyota lamps; all the aftermarket ones are junk.

[tebore]

Alaric

1. No need to talk down.
2. I know most factory fogs are toys. However in cases when fogs are using 'headlight bulb' they are semi-useful for inclement weather. I've probably been driving in bad weather longer than you've been in to lighting. I know fogs are not for high speed. It's so you can crawl around with nothing but the fogs. In fact 40km is too fast in real fog conditions you're looking at <20km/h use.

I don't know about the Matrix having decent headlights. Maybe for its time but I have newer vehicles with H11 bulbs that give much better cut offs, beam pattern and glare control. The matrix is using a very old bulb standard that doesn't put out nearly as much light as the H11 and the SAE standard for lighting is fairly out of date.

I do want to know if there are RHD factory projectors If not I will be weighing 9012 with new relays option against projector retrofits.

[Scheinwerfermann]

I don't know about the Matrix having decent headlights.

But it's true. They're rather good. Not the best on the road, but definitely above average.

the SAE standard for lighting is fairly out of date.

That is not correct.

I do want to know if there are RHD factory projectors

Why? Canada does not use RHD cars.

[Alaric Darconville]

Alaric

1. No need to talk down.

I don't believe my use of facts and carefully considered reasoning is "talking down".

2. I know most factory fogs are toys. However in cases when fogs are using 'headlight bulb' they are semi-useful for inclement weather. I know fogs are not for high speed. It's so you can crawl around with nothing but the fogs.

Regardless of the bulb type, a fog lamp is not designed to be used as a headlamp. A poorly designed fog lamp may give the illusion of such suitability, but they are counterproductive. Generally, if the conditions are DARK, and therefore warrant fog lamps, the headlamps must be on by law. If it's not dark, then glare from low beam headlamps is generally not an issue.

I've probably been driving in bad weather longer than you've been in to lighting.

That is speculative, possibly untrue, and unrelated to the discussion. It's also possible that the entire time you've been driving in bad weather, you've developed and maintained bad habits, including the selection and usage of lights. I don't know that with certainty; I do know that what I'm reading shows you have some misapprehensions about vehicle lighting.

I do want to know if there are RHD factory projectors If not I will be weighing 9012 with new relays option against projector retrofits.

Do you mean "Right Hand Drive", in which the steering wheel is on the right side of the car, and in which case has no bearing on the beam of the headlamps (and therefore is essentially meaningless and confusing to use that term), or do you mean "Right Hand Traffic", in which vehicles keep to the right side of the road (which is the standard in North America)? While you might see some RHD vehicles in Canada (such as delivery vans used by Canada Post), they still have headlamps designed for RHT jurisdictions. (There's also the possibility that you might find the occasional illegally-imported RHD vehicle that has not had its lights switched over to the RHT pattern.)

Again, do not install relays and new wiring without testing to be certain you're experiencing a voltage drop that justifies the time and expense.

[tebore]

if they had RHD lamps I would have modified them for LHD again another discussion.

One I never said I'd use fogs as headlights thats your presumption.

From what in reading from your post you're on some kind of high horse.

I now remember why I stopped coming back to CPF. There are ways of presenting your so-called facts without being condescending. And yes my driving experience is important to the discussion because it sounds like you've never driven only with fogs on and passed information on from what's on the Internet. Again proves you to be presumptuous.

All so Your posts are presumptuous in nature so far.

Dont you think I would know to test and add a relay/harness before adding it if I has come this far?

The real reason why I'm here is because I've done my reasearch and I'm really looking for Schinwerfermann's advice.

And I was wrong in saying the SAE standard is out of date. But it could be improved upon. The glare control guide lines is one. Why are cutoffs still so bad on some new vehicles?And not making rear fogs mandatory is another.

So the lights are above average but that's relative how do I get them to be better?

[Alaric Darconville]

if they had RHD lamps I would have modified them for LHD again another discussion.

Again, you're conflating RHD with LHT, and LHD with RHT. From a lighting standpoint, the position of the driver in the vehicle is unimportant, it is the position of the car on the road. There ARE considerations for importing RHD vehicles into the US based on other safety performance, like crash-worthiness, but for lighting purposes the only thing that matters is the traffic directionality.

One I never said I'd use fogs as headlights thats your presumption.

I probably made that assumption based on your implication:

It's so you can crawl around with nothing but the fogs.

From what in reading from your post you're on some kind of high horse.

I don't know how to respond to that. I'm just giving information and some opinion.

I now remember why I stopped coming back to CPF. There are ways of presenting your so-called facts without being condescending.

If they are merely "so-called facts" then they are opinions. Facts in themselves are facts.

And yes my driving experience is important to the discussion because it sounds like you've never driven only with fogs on and passed information on from what's on the Internet. Again proves you to be presumptuous.

Again, your driving experience is anecdotal and subjective. That's not to say the experience itself is worthless, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're a better or worse driver than anyone else, or that you're better qualified to determine the proper selection, installation, and placement of lamps than the engineers who do it based on objective testing and working with much more data than one driver's (or several drivers' collective) experience.

If I've driven only with fog lamps on, then I'd have either driven with them on in the day, which is of limited utility (and not a substitute for proper DRLs); at night if I were to use fog lamps I'd keep my low beams on-- if the fog got any thicker that my low beams were too much of a problem, I'd get off the road entirely and wait for such conditions to pass. Driving at night with only fog lamps on is using them in substitution of headlamps.

All so Your posts are presumptuous in nature so far.

You keep saying that; I'll review my posts and check with a moderator to see if they agree.

Dont you think I would know to test and add a relay/harness before adding it if I has come this far?

You didn't say you had tested. The test results would have been interesting to see and would have helped us to help you.

The real reason why I'm here is because I've done my reasearch and I'm really looking for Schinwerfermann's advice.

No one thread belongs to any one person, essentially. You're not free to choose who responds to your posts, and dismissing people people using the tone argument fallacy can lead to you not getting the information and results you need-- and is a form of derailment.

And I was wrong in saying the SAE standard is out of date. But it could be improved upon. The glare control guide lines is one. Why are cutoffs still so bad on some new vehicles?And not making rear fogs mandatory is another.

To improve either the SAE or the UN standards would take years of research and testing and dollars and committees and legislation and so on. Headlamps are being improved constantly (such as the "glare-free high beams" being worked on).

Rear fog lamps are an unnecessary expense for many people depending on geographical regions and driving habits. It would also require additional driver education on their proper use, and additional enforcement of their use (or non-use).

So the lights are above average but that's relative how do I get them to be better?

The 9012 (HIR2) in the low beam socket, and the 9011 (HIR) in the high beam socket will go a long way towards getting more light out there. Again, this is assuming the lenses are as close to factory clear as they can be; bubbles, cracks, hazing, and crazing in the lens will take that light and generate more glare.

[fyrstormer]

A tip to Alaric and Schein: cutting people's posts into sentence fragments and responding with curt judgements of right or wrong may seem like the most efficient way to correct someone's misunderstandings, but it's so off-putting that it's actually less effective than responding in paragraph form. At least try to engage your reader on their own level instead of from the pulpit. If you're too busy to take time to write a well-worded response, don't bother responding.

[fyrstormer]

So the lights are above average but that's relative how do I get them to be better?

In all likelihood, you can't get them to be better. Your car has a certain seating position and a certain headlight position, and your eyes have a certain ability to see in the dark, and those factors are all outside your control. In addition, headlights have a maximum amount of light they can output, for practical reasons if not legal reasons, and unless the beam pattern on your headlights is exceptionally bad, replacing the focusing elements with a different design is unlikely to make any significant improvement. The best thing you can do is make sure you have the best bulbs you can get your hands on (OSRAM Silver Star is very good, but not the same as Sylvania SilverStar) and make sure your lenses are clean and clear.

[Scheinwerfermann]

Please, no quarrelling or personal sniping. Keep it on topic (about lamps and lighting).

Tebore, in particular, you need to please take a step back and a deep breath and cool it; when you write things like your so-called facts, that is condescending.

Now:

I was wrong in saying the SAE standard is out of date. But it could be improved upon. The glare control guide lines is one. Why are cutoffs still so bad on some new vehicles?And not making rear fogs mandatory is another.

SAE doesn't put out legal requirements, they publish technical standards. It would be up to regulatory agencies (NHTSA in the USA and Transport Canada in Canada) to decide to mandate the installation of rear fog lamps. It will probably never happen; there isn't much interest in lighting among North American regulators.

When you say "the cutoff is so bad", I guess you mean it's not as sharp as you would like. Keep in mind a sharp cutoff may be prettier on the wall, but it is not necessarily better than a softer cutoff in terms of headlamp safety performance. Like all other aspects of headlight beam design, cutoff sharpness involves compromises no matter what choice is made.

[AnAppleSnail]

So the lights are above average but that's relative how do I get them to be better?

This is a darn good question. It's important because there are a lot of ways headlights could be "better." Federal standards were made (I believe) to make it possible to have uniform vehicle lighting. There are ratios of headlight to signal light brightness, off-axis and on-axis brightness, and a lot of other stuff you probably know more about than I do. Making a light 'better' within these limits is difficult. In the end, the light (Bulb, reflector, or cover) may not be the weak point in the system. A great big light, or even the best headlights in the world, will not help with:

1. Driving when visibility is too low. You'll need alternate seeing or alternate scheduling. I don't know if you can install FLIR, but you can drive another time unless it's an emergency.
2. Seating position / interior lighting. Turn off all the interior panel lights - were they too bright? Is your seat adjusted so you can see correctly?
3. Glare. Do your mirrors glare? I drove a car where the cabin glass panels focused following headlights into glare patterns on the dashboard, which projected white smears across the dark windshield. This made driving unsafe!
4. Light condition. At night, turn on the lights. If you can see any film, haze, or fogginess on the lens, they are taking a hefty percentage of your light. Do your reflectors ... reflect? Mine didn't, once. I replaced them just in time for deer season. Voltage...is it high enough? If it's not, relays will help. Each 0.1V is something like 10% output; there are more specific x^4 regressions.

Good luck! Not being able to see sucks.

[Scheinwerfermann]

If you're too busy to take time to write a well-worded response, don't bother responding.

Fyrstormer, your tone once again merits a reminder of the rules of this forum, particularly #4 and #8. Flaming, baiting, trolling and sassing the moderators are not permissible here. Please stop now, thank you.

[Diesel_Bomber]

Depending on how much fabrication skill you have and the effort/expense you're willing to put out, Hella makes an incredibly wide range of headlight modules in many sizes, with lumens provided by both HID and halogen sources.

My favorite is the 90mm Bixenon projector with 3000K bulbs, and the high beam shutter wired in with the factory high beams. Best of both worlds in a single housing, and (at least according to my understanding of such things) with the 3000K bulbs they're slightly more suited to inclement weather than standard 4300K bulbs.