New bike light on kickstarter-Barry Beams

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Steve K

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I'm on the Bikecurrent bike light list, what little remains of it... so I'm familiar with Barry and have seen the announcement of the Kickstarter project. I've looked at the Kickstarter project page, but haven't really figured out how the light compares to other commercial bike lights. Any chance that you've seen the light and formed an opinion, or can share any observations?
 

AnAppleSnail

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Looks and sounds shockingly like a standard aspheric beam. Blinding and unsafe to other drivers? I hope I'm wrong!

" My patent pending beam lights up the whole road evenly. As with fine luxury sports car lights, high resolution optics project an even beam that's a few lanes wide by far enough ahead for high speed electric motorcycles ,without glare in oncoming drivers' eyes."

The beam shots I can find don't show much more than nearby glare and blackness ahead, but a bizarre false-color output pattern looks more like a triple optic than a single. Let's see what else comes out.
 

BillyNoMates

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but a bizarre false-color output pattern looks more like a triple optic than a single.

I looked at this image and it looks very similar to what I'm trying to achieve with my 19-up high/low beam light. This one seems to be limited to 3 LEDs arranged in a pyramid - lower two used for low-beam and upper one used for high beam. The difference with my light is that I use 7 LEDs to build the pyramid base layers for low beam - hopefully I will get a little more control over the beam shapes.

I first raised this idea a couple of years ago in the "Let's design a road front light beam" thread, post #158. I've changed the beam design since then, but the idea looks very similar.
 

AnAppleSnail

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The difference with my light is that I use 7 LEDs to build the pyramid base layers for low beam - hopefully I will get a little more control over the beam shapes.

I first raised this idea a couple of years ago in the "Let's design a road front light beam" thread, post #158. I've changed the beam design since then, but the idea looks very similar.

Neat, you may want to email them about prior art. Patents in the US are sticky. Off-center LEDs for beam shaping would become obvious to someone playing with lenses, but I haven't.
 

Szemhazai

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For me the biggest mistake of this project is 26650 cell - 4500mAh ok maybe reeal maybe not, but it's not a standard cell and biggest manuufacturers are not putting their money on some non standard cells. Now we are getting up to 3200mAh from 18650 branded cells, within a year up to 3500mAh i think and those 26650 will stay at the same capacity.


Beside that, looking on the driver and beam shape - double XM-L with recoil type reflector + lens.

CatEye ROL
Engineered for optimal brightness and efficiency, our Reverse
Offset Lens design launches the next generation in lighting
technology. ROL™ features a unique lens that focuses an LED
beam on our precisely-curved reflector, maximizing output by
eliminating non-controlled light.

cateyerecoil.jpg
 

lampeDépêche

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by personal correspondence, Mr. Barry Beams tells me that he is using XPG's, and that he is being choosy about the tint and temp.

I suppose that means 3 XPGs, but then a max output of 1400 lumens is really pushing it, I'd think?
 

Szemhazai

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If he is choosing some nice tint - i.e. outdoor white 3C 4750K - he can only get R4 bin, then it highly depends how he is counting lumens. 1400 lumens from the lamp means 1600 lumens from leds, then he is much over reasonable currents (XP-G R4 @ 1,5A = 433 lumens, @2,5A = 540 lumens). If f from the leds - only a bit ;).
 

ttoshi

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Joan Deitchman gave some feedback on the light:

I was fortunate enough to get to use several of the prototypes during SFR brevets and RAAM this year, and was quite impressed with several qualities/characteristics of the lights (multiple settings, wide and evenly distributed beam, integrated battery, etc.). The weight is 214g (including battery). The dimensions are: 116x40x45mm.
 

swhs

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The light looks promising. I've done bike rides with the guy, so I may chip in to support the project:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/barrybeams/the-future-of-bike-lighting

Toshi

This guy is an ***, who thinks he's very clever (which he is not), he listens to no one's advice and input but likes to intimidate others in the field of asymmetric beams with his claim that "it's patented". This has pissed off other people but I gave him a chance and gave him advice, but after a inane response from him to my suggestions for his taillamp on linkein, I kicked his *** in 2 posts showing what a dimwit he is. I thought it deserved a special place as part of a few pages I made of a few pages where I describe the problems of forums, and you can find this page about him here which describes why I'm not impressed with what he has produced:

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/kritiek/discussies/discussie_linked_in.html
 

Steve K

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To expand on my earlier comment that I was familiar with Barry via the Bikecurrent list, you can look at the archives and draw your own conclusions. The Bikecurrent list is on Topica, and can be found here:

http://lists.topica.com/lists/bikecurrent/read

Barry's posts use just the letter "b" as the author name, although posts from a couple of years ago used "bbarry". He did mention his Barry Beams light in posts in Oct 2010.
 

SemiMan

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The only beam shot I "think" I am seeing on the kickstarter page does not look good, but it is so confusing it is hard to tell. It certainly does not look asymmetric at which a "road" beam would be, i.e. less light to the left and up so you don't blind drivers.

I don't get the circuit board at all. It looks like at best its a resistive circuit. Not great for getting the most of out of the LEDs and certainly not best to adapt to difference LED forward voltages. Woopy do that is is gold plated. I do outdoor/automotive stuff all the time. Gold plated (ENIG) is really no better than any other board plating method and actually has some inferior properties. It really is not justified from a cost standpoint for something like this as it provides no benefits. ENIG has its place. When I use high density parts the surface planarity can become an issue. However, for LED drivers and certainly for this board, that does not come remotely into play.

Maybe someone should tell him about the lights in Europe? ... They already have asymmetric beams.

Semiman
 

SemiMan

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SWHS, fun reading ... I find the same issue with some posters on CPF ... they like to behave as experts, but when called on their "presumptions" they get all defensive and never can back up claims.

Steve K, looked at that link you provided. Barry seems to have startlingly little understanding of LED drive electronics even well into his Barry Beams project.

Unfortunately, many people will buy into this and end up with the same light they could have bought today for less money that works just as well.

Anyone think this looks like an over sized Planet Bike light?
 

Esko

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I have had thoughts about building a diy triple led bike light with a more even illumination, too, but this doesn't seem to be even close to what I have had in mind. I guess the description: "Looks like a pair of car headlights on the road right in front" refers to the 2 hotspots side by side. I also don't think that it is a good thing to light the feet and water bottle, it is just an unwanted source of glare and distraction. Not sure how it will do that either, but it is written in the goals and features. IMHO it doesn't seem to lights the ground right in front of the wheel very evenly either.

Anyway, this caught my attention:

The heat conducting plastic weighs half of aluminum and carries heat just as well.

What is this magical plastic that can be compared to aluminum in terms of heat conductance?

Edit: I thought about this thousand backers thing he mentions in the Kickstarter home page ("If a picture is worth a thousand words, then can this video convince a thousand backers?"... "One thousand is the MOQ (minimum order quantity) reputable companies will produce"). What does he mean? I thought it was just casual talk, but let me quote the announcement email in the discussion group that Steve K provided:

b in lists.topica.com/lists/bikecurrent/read said:
1000 backers in 32 days and Barry Beams becomes real

link: http://lists.topica.com/lists/bikecurrent/read/message.html?mid=814167410&sort=d&start=13366

A single Barry Beam costs $99 dollars in Kickstarter. The Kickstarter goal is $49500, which equals to less than 500 lights. Why?
 
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AnAppleSnail

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What is this magical plastic that can be compared to aluminum in terms of heat conductance?

Because the main limit on most flashlights isn't moving heat from the LED to the surface of the light, it's moving heat from the surface of the light to the surroundings. Titanium vs. Aluminum has a dramatically different thermal conductivity score, but not much difference in real heat management. He might get acceptable performance here, but not while driving hard. Perhaps plastic is a thin layer over the metal - in which case I am concerned over insulating voids as part of the production process.

I'm skeptical of a lot of things. Barry seems to denigrate every other light project (That old one is junk, this new one is a scam) he mentions... and has some not-quite-right in his design or presentation (suggest me a voltage splitter to use my Barry-Beams light on my 1916 Harley [Is this legal? Who knows?]). There is a dearth of beamshots, so I borrowed some for his videos. Since these videos are posted in support of his "The Future of Bike Lighting" project, I am quite permitted to use them to consider the performance of the lights.

rHOh0.png

I watched one of his 'check out my awesome car-headlight-pwning bike light' videos and grabbed a random screenshot. I wanted to have taillights and streetlights to show the near-field glare from this light. There doesn't appear to be enough discrimination between foreground and distant lighting for my liking. Here's one with less light pollution:

fM6I0.png

Note the poorly-visible pine tree - there is a real cutoff here, until you tilt the bike to turn. That's okay. What bothers me is that about four fence-posts ahead (fifty feet or so) there is a black abyss of darkness. I don't expect this sort of performance from a high-dollar light, I expect it at the $50 price point.

From Topica, Barry suggests interesting on-road lighting.
"[SIZE=-2] Solving the antique motorcycle issue is part of a longer development
goal to produce an automotive Barry Beam to use as either fog/running
lights, or as the most kickass car headlights imaginable, if you can
imagine four of these screaming up the road, but still not blinding an
oncoming driver's eye."
[/SIZE]

I can't imagine he's gotten far enough into the vehicular lighting segment to realize the issues with having four lights on a car, much less matching output and directionality standards in civilized countries. I hope he doesn't take money before researching the issues inherent in his plan, so that he has a plan of action to proceed.


Your images are too large and have been replaced with links Please resize and repost.
See Rule #3 If you post an image in your post, please downsize the image to no larger than 800 x 800 pixels. - Thanks Norm


Norm - fixed pictures. Thanks kindly!
 
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Steve K

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... What is this magical plastic that can be compared to aluminum in terms of heat conductance?

I was familiar with carbon filled plastic having better thermal conductivity, but a quick web search pulled up an interesting and informative article:
http://www.ptonline.com/articles/plastics-that-conduct-heat

The article mentions some of the improvements in thermally conductive plastics:
"Whereas unfilled thermoplastics have a thermal conductivity of around 0.2 W/mK (Watts/meter-°Kelvin), most thermally conductive plastic compounds typically have 10 to 50 times higher conductivity (1-10 W/mK). One firm, Cool Polymers, offers products with 100 to 500 times the conductivity of a base polymer (10-100 W/mK).... ... Thermal conductivity of extrusion-grade aluminum alloys is near 150 W/mK".

How do they do it? Here's some discussion of that:
"Among the most commonly used heat-conductive additives are graphite carbon fibers and ceramics such as aluminum nitride and boron nitride. Graphite fibers conduct electricity as well as heat, which suits them to applications where RFI shielding is required, such as hand-held communication devices. By contrast, the ceramic additives are electrically insulative. They are suited to applications that come into contact with electrical leads. Virtually all the suppliers of thermally conductive compounds offer both electrically conductive and insulative types. Thermally conductive compounds are usually formulated with crystalline engineering resins due to their high heat resistance and lower melt viscosities, but amorphous resins can also be used. Cool Polymers, for instance, has developed a thermally conductive polysulfone compound."

Pretty interesting stuff. Using thermally conductive plastics would let the manufacturer avoid the cost of machining parts, or more likely, the cost of tooling for die casting aluminum. OTOH, the cost of tooling for the injection molded plastic stuff is pretty expensive too. I can recall costs near $10k for plastic injection molds for a small sensor. If you only build 1000 units, that adds $10 to the manufacturing cost, and probably $20 to the wholesale cost.
 

AnAppleSnail

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Steve K;4038497 Pretty interesting stuff. Using thermally conductive plastics would let the manufacturer avoid the cost of machining parts said:
One niche here is to injection-mold standard billets and then machine the part. One problem with plastics, and especially ones with fibrous additives, is that these properties align to the direction of flow. So if I make a cylindrical billet for machining parts from, the thermal conductivity and strength will be greatest in whatever direction of flow filled each part of the mold. This leads to complex stress/strain profiles, as well as hard-to-predict thermal paths. Carbon-fiber fillers, for instance, are oriented during molding (One reason mold development is so critical for plastics). Some fillers are less sensitive to this orientation, and some mold designs are more resistant to creating anisotropic (Not the same in all directions) properties.

It seems that plastics are now at the point where a well-designed light can be machined from plastic stock and not be terribly handicapped by the material choice for thermal management. This is an exciting development, because it means that production-quality parts could be turned out by plastic lathe-work or perhaps someday 3d printers.
 
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