Cree "60W" 800lm A-shaped LED light bulb teardown

electronupdate

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This bulb is creating a bit of a stir given it's good light output rating and very reasonable price.

I took one apart and analyzed it's construction. 1st thermally conductive PCB that I have ever seen!

Lots of clever design and manufacturing engineering on the go here.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6DDFRBrSas
 

PhotonWrangler

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Wow, thank you for the excellent teardown report! Well done.

What struck me most was the rating on the nichicon capacitors. From the video I understand that the caps will last between 5000 - 10000 hours around 95 degrees c. This is far short of the package's claim of 25,000 hours. **Edited out reference to 3M bulb**

Overall it looks like a great product, marketing claims notwithstanding, and I've purchased several for use around the home. It's especially nice to see that it can be used in enclosed fixtures thanks to it's robust heat sinking. This opens up a number of possibilities for me including outdoor post lights.
 
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Qship1996

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What are the lumens marked on the bulb itself vs the packaging? and which is accurate?
 

PhotonWrangler

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What are the lumens marked on the bulb itself vs the packaging? and which is accurate?

My 3000k bulb states 800 lumens on the yellow strip on the base of the bulb itself. The packaging, however, claims 850 lumens. I don't have a means of measuring it objectively but it does appear to be about the same if not slightly dimmer than my Philips 800 lumen bulb so I suspect that the lumens on the packaging are exaggerated. Keep in mind I'm talking about the 3M bulb, not the Cree lamp.
 
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Qship1996

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Wow, thank you for the excellent teardown report! Well done.

What struck me most was the rating on the nichicon capacitors. From the video I understand that the caps will last between 5000 - 10000 hours around 95 degrees c. This is far short of the package's claim of 25,000 hours. When I add this to the disparity between the lumens claimed on the packaging vs the lumens marked on the bulb, I think Cree needs to lock up the marketing folks and let the engineers write the specs.

Overall it looks like a great product, marketing claims notwithstanding, and I've purchased several for use around the home. It's especially nice to see that it can be used in enclosed fixtures thanks to it's robust heat sinking. This opens up a number of possibilities for me including outdoor post lights.


If you are talking about the 3M bulb having different lumens rating on the bulb VS the packaging,why are you mentioning it in your above discussion of the CREE bulb......very confusing and misleading to all who read it to say the least!!!!
 

PhotonWrangler

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If you are talking about the 3M bulb having different lumens rating on the bulb VS the packaging,why are you mentioning it in your above discussion of the CREE bulb......very confusing and misleading to all who read it to say the least!!!!

Sorry, I had just read the thread about the 3M bulb and it was still on my mind when I replied in this thread. I've gone back and corrected it. Thanks for pointing this out.
 

JohnR66

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I measured the temperature of the 9w 5000K Cree bulb. The temperature probe was place between the board and the large filter capacitor. Base down, 21 degrees Celsius ambient. I took a reading after about 20~30 minutes when the temperature stabilized.

Globe on: 72 Deg C.
Globe removed: 68 Deg C

Next, I put a drinking glass over the bulb to represent a small enclosed fixture. After about 40 minutes, the temperature stabilized at 80 Deg C.

I can see the warm white version getting a bit hotter if it draws more current and is less efficient. In an enclosed fixture with a warmer ambient, I can see these bulb's lifetime being severely compromised by the heat. I think the 6 watt, 40w replacement bulb would work much better in enclosed fixtures as it will not get nearly as hot.
 

brickbat

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Are you guys measuring the temperature of the electrolytic capacitor, or just the heatsink? Since the cap doesn't generate much heat itself, and it looks like it's located in the lamp base, it's probably cooler than the heatsink. (If it's just 10C cooler, the lifetime almost doubles) As has been noted, the capacitor is probably the most heat-susceptible component in any CFL/LED lamp...
 

SemiMan

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Are you guys measuring the temperature of the electrolytic capacitor, or just the heatsink? Since the cap doesn't generate much heat itself, and it looks like it's located in the lamp base, it's probably cooler than the heatsink. (If it's just 10C cooler, the lifetime almost doubles) As has been noted, the capacitor is probably the most heat-susceptible component in any CFL/LED lamp...


Depending on the ripple current, the capacitor will self heat and could be hotter than the surrounding air.

Semiman
 

Arilou

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1st thermally conductive PCB that I have ever seen!
The white PCB looks pretty similar to the ones EagleLight uses, although I didn't tear it apart to see if the back was aluminum.

I'm not sure how EagleLight dissipates heat so effectively, but the 8W bulb gets only slightly warm even after being on for many hours. The large size probably helps.
 

N8N

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I really want to like this bulb...

one thing I haven't seen yet. Has anyone evaluated the spectrum output and/or CRI of this bulb? Cree claims a much lower CRI for this bulb than Philips does for the L-prize bulb, so the latter is my current favorite (actually the only LED bulb that I'm using.) However the Cree has a much better power factor (reported; I've checked an L-prize bulb with my Kill-A-Watt and it has a power factor less than 1 and it only gets worse when dimmed) so the CRI difference is the only thing keeping me from switching to Cree for future purchases.

It seems that that Orange Colored Store has pretty much made up its mind to push Cree even though they're the only readily accessable retail outlet that offers the Philips L-prize bulb.
 

brickbat

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Depending on the ripple current, the capacitor will self heat and could be hotter than the surrounding air.

Semiman

Agreed. I didn't say it didn't generate ANY heat. And, this is all the better reason to actually measure the case temperature of the cap itself, especially if someone is asserting it's the weak link in the reliability chain...

Also, as I think this over, before we go second-guessing the Cree design, we ought to consider that electrolytic "life" ratings are a function of many factors, none of which are known. For example, I see they chose a 315V cap, but don't know the applied DC voltage. If its less than 315, then life increases. Also, we don't know to what degree the capacitance or ESR can drift out-of spec (technically, a capacitor 'failure') but still allow the lamp to operate normally. IOW, we don't know how much margin was used in the design.

Lastly, Cree's guarantee of 25k hours stands irregardless of what we might think of their design choices. They are not guaranteeing any particular lamp will last 25k hours. Rather, they are simply agreeing to replace those that don't.

Yes, in case it wasn't apparent, I get annoyed when I hear something like "the lamp runs hot and therefore the service life of the capacitor is questionable - design error?". That is an oversimplification, with possible bias, of a complex subject...
 
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idleprocess

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It seems that that Orange Colored Store has pretty much made up its mind to push Cree even though they're the only readily accessable retail outlet that offers the Philips L-prize bulb.
Big Orange has had a relationship with Cree going back to Cree's downlights being private-labelled under the EcoSmart brand, where the actual manufacturer was hardly obscured, and Cree's name is often dropped in the product description. Unlike Philips - who can make money on bulb and florescent tube sales forever - Cree is interested in buying market share through aggressive price-cutting, which makes it easier for Home Depot to introduce people to LED lighting while likely making some OK margin on Cree's bulbs.
 

N8N

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Big Orange has had a relationship with Cree going back to Cree's downlights being private-labelled under the EcoSmart brand, where the actual manufacturer was hardly obscured, and Cree's name is often dropped in the product description. Unlike Philips - who can make money on bulb and florescent tube sales forever - Cree is interested in buying market share through aggressive price-cutting, which makes it easier for Home Depot to introduce people to LED lighting while likely making some OK margin on Cree's bulbs.

No doubt... really I have respect for Cree though so I don't see this as nefarious in any way. I've got a couple of the old Lowe's Task Force flashlights kicking around still, some on their original batteries... they're great for tossing in the glovebox of your car or whatever and if I lose one I'm out something like $30? So I've been positively disposed towards Cree for years.

Here's the way I see the two bulbs...

Cree:

positive:

- slightly better price (assuming $15 for the L-prize, not true in all areas)
- more conventional appearance
- doesn't appear to be overly fazed by enclosed fixtures
- PF close to 1 (reported)

negative:

- low CRI

Philips:

positive:

- higher overall light output
- better efficacy (based on watts, but not necessarily on VA)
- CRI >90

negative:

- PF kind of sucks

I suppose it's too much to ask for the positives of both bulbs to be combined into one? :)
 

idleprocess

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This bulb is creating a bit of a stir given it's good light output rating and very reasonable price.

I took one apart and analyzed it's construction. 1st thermally conductive PCB that I have ever seen!

Lots of clever design and manufacturing engineering on the go here.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6DDFRBrSas
Nice review with a lot more information for the more casual viewer than the technical press has managed!
 

Qship1996

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Big Orange has had a relationship with Cree going back to Cree's downlights being private-labelled under the EcoSmart brand, where the actual manufacturer was hardly obscured, and Cree's name is often dropped in the product description. Unlike Philips - who can make money on bulb and florescent tube sales forever - Cree is interested in buying market share through aggressive price-cutting, which makes it easier for Home Depot to introduce people to LED lighting while likely making some OK margin on Cree's bulbs.

Not sure that is exactly accurate.The Ecosmart private branded stuff for HD is actually designed and made by lighting science group,NOT Cree.LSG is just saying they use Cree LEDs in their products{Cree does not design nor provide the drivers or anything else in these products,just the actual LED itself} Plenty of cheap,inexpensive off shore flashlights also use this same marketing tactic,advertising CREE leds in their products.....just saw a pack of 2 at Costco for $15 or so
 
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idleprocess

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I suppose it's too much to ask for the positives of both bulbs to be combined into one? :)
Now that a competitor has entered the marketplace without legacy residual income to lose that can compete on price and has engineering talent to throw at their designs, I expect we'll see Philips, GE, and the other big players respond in a similar vein.
 

idleprocess

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Not sure that is exactly accurate.The Ecosmart private branded stuff for HD is actually designed and made by lighting science group,NOT Cree.LSG is just saying they use Cree LEDs in their products{Cree does not provide the drivers or anything else,just the actual LED itself} Plenty of cheap,inexpensive off shore flashlights also use this same marketing tactic,advertising CREE leds in their products.....just saw a pack of 2 at Costco for $15 or so

The A-line bulbs and floodlights are generally LSG. Most of the downlights (if not all of them) are badge-engineered Cree products through and through.
 

Arilou

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Also, as I think this over, before we go second-guessing the Cree design, we ought to consider that electrolytic "life" ratings are a function of many factors, none of which are known. For example, I see they chose a 315V cap, but don't know the applied DC voltage. If its less than 315, then life increases. Also, we don't know to what degree the capacitance or ESR can drift out-of spec (technically, a capacitor 'failure') but still allow the lamp to operate normally. IOW, we don't know how much margin was used in the design.

Lastly, Cree's guarantee of 25k hours stands irregardless of what we might think of their design choices. They are not guaranteeing any particular lamp will last 25k hours. Rather, they are simply agreeing to replace those that don't.

The warranty only covers the case where the bulb does not operate. They never guaranteed that it will not flicker. If the capacitance decreases or the ESR increases then it will flicker more, but I doubt they will replace it. Oh, and you saved the receipt, right?
 
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