What is the appeal to the Lumileds emitters?

So this thread is really just my observations, but is there any real reason to choose a Lumileds emitter these days versus Cree or Nichia or Luminus (Luminus seems to be a "pedal to the metal" brand it seems so that may be unfair to mention them)?

Looking at Flashlight Wiki's (who owns/maintains that by the way? Phenomenal resource!) brightness bins pages, it seems that you can put ### mA into a Philips Lumileds Luxeon C or Luxeon Rebel, but you'd see a MUCH greater return in luminous output given your input current with a more 'competitive' LED brand, it seems to me.

I see the Luxeon stuff is used in the Maglite Solitaire, for example is why I ask. However, even the Home Depot "Defiant" line of flashlights uses an XP-G (or was it XM-L?) these days.

So do the Lumileds LEDs really have much of a place in the market these days? if I remember correctly, when I first joined CPF in 2005, the Luxeon LEDs were THE thing to buy back then, but I guess they've lost their competitive edge?

Do any of you LED experts make a point of putting non-Cree/Nichia/Luminus LEDs in your builds these days? Like do any of you purposely go for Samsung, Osram, or Philips (did I forget anyone?) for any particular reason?

Thank you for any input you guys have to offer, I'm all ears and eager to learn more about these other brands and their lower-output stuff and see what their primary purpose is, for example


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The datasheets say what they say and you can read them for what they're worth.
Some folks read 'em and believe 'em. Some folks read one thing and see another in application.
At the end of the day, I think the advantage that some of the LumiLEDs parts have are with aspects of quality of light that only high-end luminaire and fixture manufacturers would ever notice.
At this point, Oslon Square, 219B, XP-G2, and LUXEON T are all interchangeable and the big difference is which one you can best lm/$ on. from what I've seen, the LUXEON T parts I've had access to are "higher bins" than those of the others, but it might just be that I have a better relationship with my LUXEON supplier...

Yeah, pretty much interchangeable, if you would trade 130-220 lm at 700 mA (depending on CCT) in a Luxeon T for 164-300 in an XM-L2 at the same current, and a 1A max in the Luxeon for a 3A max in the Cree. Granted the Luxeon's Vf is 2% lower at 700 mA than the Cree, but you pay 3X the price for the Cree. They may be similar in lm/$, but in most other respects they are not what I would call interchangeable.

That's is not really a fair comparison, as the die sizes are very different. But that's my point. You want to pick an emitter that's well matched to your application.


Cree's Gen2 parts beat the pants off anybody for efficiency, but maybe not in anything else. Luminus beats the pants off anybody for high output but definitely nothing else. Nichia is known for color rendition, etc.


I am not aware of any technical advantages that Luxeon has over everyone else. Of course I haven't paid a lot of attention to that recently, so I could be missing something. I suspect that what they are good at is high-volume pricing. I was involved in a project a few years ago involving a part they made obsolete just as we were finalizing our product. An offer to buy 1,000,000 parts (yes, one million LEDs) didn't even register on their radar enough to merit a reply to the inquiry. Yes, that's right, they didn't even REPLY to a multi-million-dollar inquiry. It may be sour grapes, it may be foolish assumptions, but this has led me to believe that Philips has chosen to focus on super-high-volume customers and to ignore everyone else. It really irritates me that I can't even rant that I believe that is a foolish choice. If you can dominate in super-high-volume, you may well dominate in profits as well.

Add in:

- Good lumen/$ ratio
- Very tight color binning
- Very consistent color across the LED so get nice consistent projected color
- Likely the best lumen maintenance at high temperatures
- More consistent light output versus temperature

Semiman

DIWdiver said:

Cree's Gen2 parts beat the pants off anybody for efficiency, but maybe not in anything else. Luminus beats the pants off anybody for high output but definitely nothing else. Nichia is known for color rendition, etc.

Click to expand...

LUXEON T is better than XP-G2 w.r.t. lm/W as far as I know.

LuxeonT and XPG2 are not drop in replacements. They are pretty similar optically, but they are not the same.

In terms of efficiency, the XPG2 is difficult to get in anything beyond R5 bin. Keep in mind binned at 85C so it is much brighter than XPG in R5 bin. That part puts out about 250 lumens at 700mA with a 2.95V forward voltage. The LuxeonT is 220 min, but 255 typ, so pretty similar to Cree, but with a 2.8V forward voltage.

What is Lumileds better at?

- LuxeonT has lowest thermal resistance as a package
- You can buy it in a 3 or 5 step McAdam grouping around the white point which is fantastic as a luminaire designer and purchasing agent
- They take heat better while maintaining lumen maintenance
- They are cheaper than XPG2 normally
- Easier to layout than Cree for thermal performance, especially if you want to use an FR4 board. Way easier.


DIWDiver, I have a really hard time believing they would not have made a reply to your inquiry for a 1,000,000 piece EOL. Having worked in the industry and knowing what that would mean to someone's commission cheque, I can pretty much guarantee that if someone knew about this and the inquiry was serious, that they would have chased this very seriously, assuming it was made at a time in the production run-down where it was still even possible. A few years back, and even now, a $2million+ order is absolutely nothing to sneeze at.


Semiman

philips has flip chip w/ no bond wires. Also, as mentioned, a slightly lower Vf. (could this be that tiny gold wires actually drop 0.1-0.2V at an amp?)

I always liked their high flux emitters, super easy for hobbyists to make arrays with.

Do they have anything comparable to an XM-L, ie. 1000+ lumens @ 3ish volts @ 3-4Amps, in a single emitter? I had a bit of a look through their range but couldn't spot anything.

Wow. Didn't realize how much catching up I had to do.oo: