Which currently available Eneloop battery do you prefer, and why?

Rosoku Chikara

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Note: I started by posting these same thoughts on another thread, and then I realized that I was "off topic" and decided to start my own thread.

Judging from the rather strong "reactions" that I have received in other threads on this forum regarding my own (personal) decision to purchase and use only "black" Eneloops Pros: I would welcome an open (and unbiased) discussion on this new thread regarding which currently available Eneloop battery you feel is the most "useful" in the real world, and why do you feel so?

For example, I personally do not see the apparent 500 cycle "limitation" of the Pro Eneloop series as any kind of a real "limitation" at all.

This no doubt depends upon your own particular application, but in my case, I am almost never going to fully discharge my batteries within one week, every week.

That means that, given the 500 cycle "life" of the Black Eneloop Pro batteries that I have recently purchased, they will still last me for ten years! (Frankly, I do have all that much confidence that I will even be alive ten years from now, much less worried about whether not the batteries I purchased ten years ago are still holding their charge!)

So, in my opinion, don't be "fooled" by the numbers: How may cycles are you really going to ever realistically use?

And, is the difference between 70% capacity after five years, or 85% capacity after one year, all that important to you? (Given their much higher starting capacity, the Black Eneloop Pro batteries will always have the longest runtimes after one year. And, I suspect they would still have respectable capacity, even after five years.)

Once again, this all depends on your application, but if you are all that worried about how long your batteries will hold a charge, then I suggest you spend the money and invest in L91, and "call it a day."

But, in "reality," or in the real world, how often are you thinking that you would ever really let your batteries "go" for five years without recharging them?

For that matter, how often are you even going to let them "go" for one year without recharging? (I am not saying that such a thing couldn't happen. I am simply asking just how often is such a thing is likely to be your primary concern?)

Even in "survival mode," all you really need is a 12v charger that will work off a car (or a car battery) in order ensure your ability to recharge your batteries. (And, if you were all that serious about it, I think you would naturally consider investing in a solar system, or a miniature waterwheel, or a miniature windmill, or some other similar technology that would allow you to recharge your batteries in a true crisis.)

In any case, I would like to further address the issues of cost, and cycles.

Once again, I fully welcome the potential for "discussion" or debate on this thread, but when it comes to the initial investment cost of any Eneloop battery, I want to know just what are we actually talking about. How important is that cost to you?

Obviously, there is always a certain "initial investment cost" when purchasing any Eneloop battery, but whatever that actual cost was, I think it becomes highly trivialized once you consider the fact that you will (hopefully) always be able to "amortize" your investment over 50, or 100, or 200 cycles.

(And, if you ever you start thinking in terms of 500-2,100 cycles... the differences in initial investment cost truly approaches "zero.")

Anyway, that is what I think about the cost. And, as I have already written above, I have a real question about the benefits of having a high number of cycles: Just how may cycles do think you are ever going to live to "enjoy"?

Unless you truly use your flashlight for many hours every day (and I do not deny that such applications do exist), "most" people are not going to recharge their rechargeable batteries, all that often.

But, as a matter of "marketing" Japanese battery manufacturers spend a lot of time "telling" their potential customers about how many cycles that their particular battery will last.

And, once again, I am not saying such a user doesn't exist, but if he does exist, I am very interested in hearing his first hand experience about how he used his Eneloop battery for a 1,000 or more cycles, and how he found that that battery's performance began to fail in some catastrophic way. (Personally, I have never yet heard of such a thing.)

The reason I say that is, I honestly doubt that many of us will ever "use up" any Eneloop battery until it was truly "worn out" due to the number of cycles it was charged and recharged.

Personally, I think in terms of about "only" about 100 cycles. (And, for me, this is "enough.")

For me, that means that if I recharge my batteries every week, my batteries (whatever type they are) will easily "last" about two years. (Once again, for me, two years is "plenty.")

I do not mean to say that any of my batteries would ever be considered "trash" after only 100 cycles. What I mean to say is that any such batteries might get relegated to a less demanding application, if they were indeed ever demonstrated as being no longer capable of holding a charge near their original rated capacity. (But, in reality, I cannot see such a thing ever happening at only 100 cycles, no matter which type Eneloop I choose.)

So, my point is that whether you "invest" in standard Eneloops, or Eneloop Pros, I think that the difference in cost between the two type batteries becomes highly trivialized; so long as you assume you are really going use whichever battery type you have selected, at least a 100 charge and discharge cycles.

And, having written all the above, I am now going to attempt to keep my final conclusion as succinct as possible: Would you rather have a bird in hand, or two in the bush?

In other words:

Do you really care all that much about relatively small (given amortization) price differences, and the relatively "distant" rewards of potentially long battery cycle life?

(Which, in my personal case, I doubt whether I am likely to ever live to enjoy? And, even if I did, wouldn't the cost of batteries reveal themselves to be fairly minor within the greater scheme of things?)

Or, would you prefer to enjoy the longest runtimes "that I know of" from an LSD NiMH battery on a "day-to-day" basis, right now? (Since you know, for certain, that you can immediately "benefit" from those longer runtimes, beginning with today?)

In my opinion, "Let the future take care of itself." (And for me, this was not such a difficult decision to make.)

Batteries are the true lifeblood of any flashlight. Why would you ever spend tens, hundreds, or perhaps even thousands of dollars, on flashlights; and then "skimp" on the cost of their batteries? (To me, that just doesn't make any sense.)

I welcome any and all comments.
 
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rbid1962

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I have both (XX and Standard), and now I'm hessitating in which to get for my high-speed photography hobby. I'm sure that 500 recharge cycles is enough for me.. but the cost of the pro batteries is the factor I'm thinking.
 

ChrisGarrett

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500 cycles at 1 per week in ~9.5 years. Even 250 cycles at 1 per week is ~5 years. This being said, I'm content with the Gen II, 1500 cycle version, because at $10/4pk delivered, the price is right. I've got Sanyo 2700s, AccuPower 2900s, Imedion 2400s and Energizer 2300 (Japan) cells, so if I need a bit more capacity, I've got those bases covered.

If and when those higher cap batteries die off, I would consider the XX Pros and their 500 cycle limit wouldn't really spook me too much.

Chris
 

Rosoku Chikara

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I realize that the price of standard Eneloop batteries, and the price of black Eneloop Pro batteries, varies dramatically from country-to-country, and from market-to-market.

However, I think the cost amortization principle always remains the same...

Currently, in Japan, I can easily purchase standard Eneloop batteries for about $2.91 each (four pack). And, black Eneloop Pro batteries sell for "only" about $3.28 each (four pack). So, the difference is "only" $0.37 each. But, let's say, for the sake of "argument" their price was actually double. So, the difference in price would be $2.91 each.

What I trying to say is, given a price difference of even $2.91 each, but assuming you really do get to use your batteries for a least 100 charge cycles, the price difference between the two battery types translates into only $0.0291 per cycle. (And, that would go down to $0.0097 per cycle, if you were to successfully charge and discharge them 300 times.)

Do you see my point? Granted, the initial investment cost is very different: perhaps even double, in some markets (and that investment cost could be a serious obstacle for some people). But, over the long run, if you can afford to make the "investment," the price difference between the two battery types quickly becomes highly trivial, it seems to me.

So, I choose to enjoy the 2,450mAh (vs. 2,000mAh) capacity of the "Pro" batteries, today.
 
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VidPro

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The bird in the hand. For me it is not about the price, nor about the 500 (ample) cycle ability. It is about the reliability and robustness of the cell item.
I (well "we" actually, if you account for the many people) got screwed royal via the Big Numbers catch, ooooh pick the big numbers , lots and lots, gonna be big, Bigger = Better , in many repeated scenarios the battery that tried to squeeze more stuff into the cell failed sooner.
The ni-?? variety of cells does not fail completly (noticable), but became weak (low voltage on high load), lower capacity, and/or self discharged faster/sooner.
Any less robust cell item will be at least slightly less reliable in the field, or when parked waiting for use.

The reliability of the original non-xx non-pro was so high that it Changed completly the way I had to deal with rechargables, going from excessive testing, excessive re-topping, and excessive garbage, to minor testing, and much trusting over many years (even) of usage. You present that the 500 cycles is a possible issue, if that is the ONLY possible issue with a less robust cell item, then I certannly should be using more of the Big Number variety of sanyo/panasonic cell, or cells in general.
but
Unless the technology itself changes (like it has before) or that the pro is a $15 hand built precision engienered 400% purity control nano tech version, then I would use it more, instead it is "less robust" although higher capacity.

If you need a 100% guarenteed 1600ma today, tomorrow, or from that cell you forgot about , that you can 100% count on for years, the other eneloop is doing that just fine. there is no iffyness about it. If someone who has done pros for 5-10 years and tests them and they are STILL all the magic numbers presented, then i certannly would look into it. But even thier own specs say (basicly) "The big number less robust cell".

Also, reverse charge, say we take any "less robust" cell, say your magic pro version still does 2200ma on a Really bad day for it (this assumes it is "better" still by far than the reliable 2000ma). IF the cells are not all at about the SAME capacity (and after time), then that reverse charge thing comes into play quickly, add that to slightly less robust and the extra 400ma are nothing.
Another cool thing about the 2000, time after time the discharge charateristics of the SET mean they all end very close to the same time, fixing that Series reverse charge thing.

So today my favorite is the very robust 2000, that can be forgotten, used and abused, and just short of the pro but likely to be way more reliable in the long run. If you can present that in normal use over real use (not some spec sheet) that the pro is the SAME in that reguard, then I would change.

The main testing being, after 100 cycles and Normal usage (not accelerated testing) if you set 4 or 8 of them on the shelf park for 3months , then discharged the set , would all of them "end about the same time" aka do they all have the same discharge stats in such a way as to be a matched series set , avoiding the reverse charge event?

other side factors: which can handle amps better? which one has better cell resistance? and that kind of thing? meaning If i were to switch to the higher capacity would it still be ok for a flash unit which can torture batts? Is it the right cell for a hotwire mod or other extreeme uses when it has higher cell resistance? Does it maintain the voltage under a hard load the same way?
 
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Rosoku Chikara

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...For me it is not about the price, nor about the 500 (ample) cycle ability. It is about the reliability and robustness of the cell item... (excerpted)

I see your point. While the "bigger number" of cycles is not important to me, I may be, in fact, being fooled myself by the bigger mAh number. Good point.

I guess I tend to have considerable confidence in the quality of such Sanyo/Panasonic products, but if indeed the Pro type batteries were to be demonstrated to have a high failure rate, then I too would prefer to have the more reliable standard type.

The Pro type batteries certainly do have a higher self discharge rate, so they will not hold their capacity as long as the standard type. But, as I wrote before, they start off with so much more capacity, that at the end of one year, they still have more capacity left than the standard type. (But, at some point in time, past 1 year, the standard type is going to have the most capacity left.)
 
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InHisName

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Advantages as I see it of XX over regular eNeloops....
1. Lasts 25% longer
2. Handles higher current drains with more aplomb. [eNeloop easily good to 2amp draw, XX easily good to 5amp or maybe even 10amp]

NONE of my devices need those features.
Buying the less costly fully satisfies all my devices neeeds just fine.

If any of your devices can be improved by #1 or #2 above, then XX is the battery for that useage.
 

braddy

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For me the regular eneloop for most everything because they retain power longer and will do fine in electronics that mostly sit on the shelf or infrequently used remotes, but I am thinking of buying a set of four XX for my EDC and 2 other lights (total 4 AA) that I use regularly, because they will be charged every month or two anyway, so I will benefit from the greater power.
 

Chrontius

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Standard eneloop - I'm still running my ROP on G1 cells. (A few other lights eat G2 eneloops, however)

If I had any particular reason to buy more rechargeable AAs, I'd put the G1 cells in my remote controls and buy XXs - if what people here say about current is correct.
 

Rosoku Chikara

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Perhaps I should have also pointed out sooner that I started out "from scratch" with Eneloops, just this year. So, I had the opportunity to choose between the Pro-type or the Standard-type from the very start. (And, as I have already pointed out, the price difference is only $0.37 per battery here in Japan.)

Prior to this, I was using non-LSD Panasonic Evolta NiMHs, which I had to keep recharging all the time. So, I really enjoy the fact that Eneloops don't require nearly so much charging (since they will easily hold a good charge for 12 months or more).

Anyway, I certainly agree with those who are happy/content with their current Eneloops. If I already owned Standard Eneloops, I would never suggest scrapping them, or giving them away, just so that I could switch over entirely to the new Pro Eneloops.
 
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mactavish

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I wonder where you get this from, in my test they had about the same capacity at 10A draw.

That's interesting. I'll try to find the thread I was reading on a photo review site, there was a bunch of posts of folks testing NiMH batteries for their cameras and flash units. And one of the guys surprised himself with the results from testing the "regular" eneloops versus the higher capacity ones, and in the end decided to go with the regular ones, according to his tests, the flash became available to "flash" faster, and cycled quicker, one would have guessed the opposite as a flash is certainly a high drain device. The groups test mythology seems quite sound, some of the results were surprising.

Cost was not a factor in my decision to recently buy my first batch of NiMH batteries, 16 AA & 12 AAA's. But all the reading and research I did, here and elsewhere, seemed to point to going for the regular 1800 Eneloops. I could see the advantage the "black" higher Ma Eneloops may have on paper, but overall the regular ones seemed to have the best overall results, all around. For my main purpose of replacing every single battery in all my remotes, to guard against horrible Duracell/Energizer leakage, the longer LSD was a main reason. I hope to be diligent and cycle maintain them every six months, but in many ways I plan to treat them as normal batteries. The ones for my lights will get more usage and recharges of course. The total price for all the batteries I just bought would cover the replacement cost of ONE remote control unit, assuming that remote was even available if ruined by a "spill". The original poster - OP does however make some valid points one should consider when shopping for either style bat, and examining your own needs carefully.
 

SaraAB87

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That's interesting. I'll try to find the thread I was reading on a photo review site, there was a bunch of posts of folks testing NiMH batteries for their cameras and flash units. And one of the guys surprised himself with the results from testing the "regular" eneloops versus the higher capacity ones, and in the end decided to go with the regular ones, according to his tests, the flash became available to "flash" faster, and cycled quicker, one would have guessed the opposite as a flash is certainly a high drain device. The groups test mythology seems quite sound, some of the results were surprising.

Cost was not a factor in my decision to recently buy my first batch of NiMH batteries, 16 AA & 12 AAA's. But all the reading and research I did, here and elsewhere, seemed to point to going for the regular 1800 Eneloops. I could see the advantage the "black" higher Ma Eneloops may have on paper, but overall the regular ones seemed to have the best overall results, all around. For my main purpose of replacing every single battery in all my remotes, to guard against horrible Duracell/Energizer leakage, the longer LSD was a main reason. I hope to be diligent and cycle maintain them every six months, but in many ways I plan to treat them as normal batteries. The ones for my lights will get more usage and recharges of course. The total price for all the batteries I just bought would cover the replacement cost of ONE remote control unit, assuming that remote was even available if ruined by a "spill". The original poster - OP does however make some valid points one should consider when shopping for either style bat, and examining your own needs carefully.

This is exactly why I use eneloops. I currently only have 1 set of non LSD cells as I was having problems with some of my older cells so I tossed them into the recycling bin at Target. Right now I am sure the employees are wondering who the girl is who dumps batteries into the bin constantly.

I use them because I don't have to deal with leakage. Alkalines are expensive here as well, $7-8 for 8 pack of Duracell. Store brand not much cheaper. A pack of 4 eneloop is $10, and other brands can be found for less with store promo and coupons. I found Duraloops last year for about 7$ a pack of 4 and a month or 2 ago I got some rayovac platinum for 7$ which will be good for at least 100 charges I am sure, so when you look at the cost its just a bit more than alkalines. Then with alkalines you have to go to the store when you run out which is really inconvenient. It's even worse for AAA as those can be $5 for a 4 pack and they run out so fast so you definitely need rechargable in that case. I have bought packs of 4 AAA rechargable duracells for $5 on clearance too.
 

Curious_character

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I'm with VidPro with regard to robustness. I've been around long enough to have used some of the very first available NiCds, and everything since. When NiMH cells became available, there were some green industrial cells with 1600 mAh capacity that were extremely reliable, and actually met their capacity spec. Then the claimed capacity went up and up, and the robustness declined dramatically. The cells would work ok for a little while, then they'd begin self-discharging so fast they'd be dead sitting on the shelf for a week. And if you let them self discharge a time or two they were done for. Then Eneloops came along. Those cells are remarkably reliable, meet their specs, and just keep on tickin'. So I'm very leery of being a beta tester for the next "improved" cell, and the small capacity increase isn't enough to tempt me. I'll stay with the conventional Eneloops until I see evidence that the black ones really do deliver more capacity while retaining the reliability and robustness that the conventional Eneloops have proven they have.

And I don't get hung up on how many hundred cycles one cell or another claims. I doubt I've ever put 100 cycles on a cell, and probably never will. They've always either died from some other cause or become obsolete before that happens.
 

Lurveleven

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Most of my cells only get recharged a few times a year, so cycle number isn't that important. However, I have a baby call that is using 2 AA batteries. This has been used and recharged every day for 4.5 years (probably around 1600 times), so in this case cycle number is important.
 

SaraAB87

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I had a pack of 4 "digital" brand batteries 1800mah that I bought at Walmart eons ago that lasted much longer than any of the higher capacity batteries claimed and that lasted years even after being abused in an old charger. For the old Nimh batteries higher capacity definitely did not equal longer life. Some manufacturers as we all know claim way more capacity than they actually deliver. I think 2000mah was the sweet spot for those batteries, probably why eneloops don't go up in capacity but work better than those batteries that claim more capacity.

I don't know about eneloop pro as I haven't tried them yet.

I don't think the amount of cycles is too important for me, because after 100-300 cycles at the most I will probably be ready to buy more batteries though I usually buy when I find them on sale but now that I have a decent collection of LSD cells I might not have to buy for a while. Anyways it's not a huge expense in the steam of things if I have to buy a new pack of 4 $7-10 cells every 4-5 years or every 100-300 cycles.

It is more important that I be able to forget the batteries for a while and they will still work when I go in my box to grab them, because the constant cycling and topping off can become a ton of work especially when you need batteries now.

Also very important that they don't leak, there is bound to be forgotten alkalines in devices in any house which could leak and lead to increased cost for device replacement, it would be better if they were forgotten lithium or eneloops which most likely would not lead to more money spent for device replacement.
 

N8N

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It is more important that I be able to forget the batteries for a while and they will still work when I go in my box to grab them, because the constant cycling and topping off can become a ton of work especially when you need batteries now.

Also very important that they don't leak, there is bound to be forgotten alkalines in devices in any house which could leak and lead to increased cost for device replacement, it would be better if they were forgotten lithium or eneloops which most likely would not lead to more money spent for device replacement.

Agreed.

I just had to throw out a cheap battery powered wall clock; the AA cell in it still had enough juice that I just noticed that the clock had stopped today; however it's clearly been leaking for a while. Combine this with the fact that I just had a ~$100 laser distance finder get puked on by a different brand of cells and I'm very anti-alkaline at the moment; I can't wait until my next shipment of Eneloops gets here (hopefully tomorrow.) Not only will the cell be worth something even when it's "dead" but I don't have to worry about forgetting to check a device and finding it ruined by those damned alkalines. If it weren't for Eneloops I'd probably be using Energizer Lithiums, but they cost almost as much as the Eneloops and are one use only.
 

sticktodrum

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The bird in the hand. For me it is not about the price, nor about the 500 (ample) cycle ability. It is about the reliability and robustness of the cell item.
I (well "we" actually, if you account for the many people) got screwed royal via the Big Numbers catch, ooooh pick the big numbers , lots and lots, gonna be big, Bigger = Better , in many repeated scenarios the battery that tried to squeeze more stuff into the cell failed sooner.
The ni-?? variety of cells does not fail completly (noticable), but became weak (low voltage on high load), lower capacity, and/or self discharged faster/sooner.
Any less robust cell item will be at least slightly less reliable in the field, or when parked waiting for use.

The reliability of the original non-xx non-pro was so high that it Changed completly the way I had to deal with rechargables, going from excessive testing, excessive re-topping, and excessive garbage, to minor testing, and much trusting over many years (even) of usage. You present that the 500 cycles is a possible issue, if that is the ONLY possible issue with a less robust cell item, then I certannly should be using more of the Big Number variety of sanyo/panasonic cell, or cells in general.
but
Unless the technology itself changes (like it has before) or that the pro is a $15 hand built precision engienered 400% purity control nano tech version, then I would use it more, instead it is "less robust" although higher capacity.

If you need a 100% guarenteed 1600ma today, tomorrow, or from that cell you forgot about , that you can 100% count on for years, the other eneloop is doing that just fine. there is no iffyness about it. If someone who has done pros for 5-10 years and tests them and they are STILL all the magic numbers presented, then i certannly would look into it. But even thier own specs say (basicly) "The big number less robust cell".

Also, reverse charge, say we take any "less robust" cell, say your magic pro version still does 2200ma on a Really bad day for it (this assumes it is "better" still by far than the reliable 2000ma). IF the cells are not all at about the SAME capacity (and after time), then that reverse charge thing comes into play quickly, add that to slightly less robust and the extra 400ma are nothing.
Another cool thing about the 2000, time after time the discharge charateristics of the SET mean they all end very close to the same time, fixing that Series reverse charge thing.

So today my favorite is the very robust 2000, that can be forgotten, used and abused, and just short of the pro but likely to be way more reliable in the long run. If you can present that in normal use over real use (not some spec sheet) that the pro is the SAME in that reguard, then I would change.

The main testing being, after 100 cycles and Normal usage (not accelerated testing) if you set 4 or 8 of them on the shelf park for 3months , then discharged the set , would all of them "end about the same time" aka do they all have the same discharge stats in such a way as to be a matched series set , avoiding the reverse charge event?

other side factors: which can handle amps better? which one has better cell resistance? and that kind of thing? meaning If i were to switch to the higher capacity would it still be ok for a flash unit which can torture batts? Is it the right cell for a hotwire mod or other extreeme uses when it has higher cell resistance? Does it maintain the voltage under a hard load the same way?


^This explains much more eloquently exactly how I feel.
 

StorminMatt

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I agree that the number of cycles is pretty unimportant. All batteries degrade with time. And if you recharge your batteries once a week, I doubt that '1000-1500 cycle Eneloops' are going to last 20-30 years. I even feel like LSD capability is somewhat overblown. Tests have shown that, when it comes to capacity, HSD batteries beat LSD batteries when it comes to capacity remaining up to a few months. And I'm really not counting on a battery to hold a full charge (or nearly a full charge) for a year or two - if I really NEED a battery to work for me (like on a camping trip), I'll charge it WELL before that time. What is MUCH more important is (as others have said) the robustness of the battery itself. Can a battery last decently long before it experiences a DRASTIC loss of capacity, higher internal resistance, or accelerated self discharge. It would seem that, for a number of years, many batteries wouldn't last over the long haul. And Eneloop 2000s (or clones like Duraloops) were the only ones that would. It is apparently for this reason that Eneloops are worshipped and set apart from others like they are around here (and other flashlight forums). And while I've never been done wrong by Eneloop 2000s, the REAL question is whether they continue to hold such a monopoly on greatness (so to speak). I personally don't think so.


Although I actually have a decent number of Duraloops, AA batteries are NOT my most-used batteries. I tend to use more D's and (especially) C's. Because there are no Eneloop C or D cells available here in the US, I use Tenergy cells. I've thus far only used the LSD Centura cells. But they have NEVER done me wrong. And believe me, I have used and abused them as much as anyone around here would use and abuse Eneloops. But I would say that they have been every bit as good as my Duraloops. I've not yet tried the HSD Premium cells. But I actually have some C cells on order to use in my C cell lights. And I actually have pretty high hopes for them.


I also have some of the Japanese made Duracell 1000mAH HSD AAA batteries. I've only been using them for a few months in my EDC penlight. But so far, so good. In the time frame in which I use them before recharging them (maybe a week or two), I DON'T notice that they are inferior to Duraloops. And the extra capacity comes in handy when I need it. Will I give away my Duraloops and replace them all with HSD Duracells? No. But if these batteries do well over the longer haul, I'll DEFINITELY get more. The same goes for the Energizer 2300 AA batteries. These have proven to be pretty good as well.


The bottom line is that it seems like battery technology has come a ways since the dreaded Energizer 2500 AA batteries. Perhaps some of the LSD technology pioneered with the Eneloop 2000s has trickled down into other batteries. Even HSD batteries seem to hold a charge and last longer than they once did. So if you want higher capacity batteries, it seems like there is no longer a reason to avoid them altogether. And if you want C and D batteries, there is no reason to use Eneloops in adaptors and put up with increased resistance and lower capacity in order to avoid bad batteries. I'm sure there are still crappy, no-name batteries out there. But good, name brand batteries all seem to have improved GREATLY in the last few years.
 
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