Generator questions

lightseeker2009

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Hi guys.
Is it really a bad idea to use a normal, non-digital, generator for items like battery chargers, TV's etc?
Will such a genny damage for instance a CPAP machine. Or will you need a digital generator? How does a normal generator damages these type of items? How long does it take for something like a TV to break because of the use of a non-digital generator?

Thanks
 

ChrisGarrett

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Hi guys.
Is it really a bad idea to use a normal, non-digital, generator for items like battery chargers, TV's etc?
Will such a genny damage for instance a CPAP machine. Or will you need a digital generator? How does a normal generator damages these type of items? How long does it take for something like a TV to break because of the use of a non-digital generator?

Thanks

You need, or should have, a generator with a pure sine wave AC inverter to safeguard against sensitive electronics. Running a light bulb, or floor fan, with a modified sine wave inverter, not so much so.

As far as 'how long until destruction day?' That cannot not be reasonably answered, as all electronics are different.

My little Harbor Freight Storm Cat, with 10 hrs of break-in on it, was bouncncing around from 117v-131v, like a kid suffering from too many Twinkies, last Wednesday.

I'd be somewhat scared to plug my digital scale/powder dispenser, or my laptop and try using them.

Chris
 

SemiMan

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Most purely mechanical generators have a pretty good sine wave output. The issue as pointed out is that voltage, especially on the cheaper ones bounces all over the place, typically as the load changes. Purely mechanical generators attempt to run at a fixed RPM in order to maintain a constant voltage output.

Generators with built in inverters generate an intermediate voltage that is then converted to a fixed AC output. The voltage is stable and the generator is able to run at a variable speed as output voltage is no longer tied to generator speed. That said, there is no guarantee this is a pure sine wave output and for low cost generators, I don't have confidence that is what they would use. It is more costly to implement a high efficiency sine wave inverter.

It is impossible to say what damage is any will be caused by a non sine wave inverter. Most things will be driven by a switch mode supply and most of them will be happy with a non-sine input, but depending on the design, they may not turn on assuming the output voltage is too low as the peak voltage is lower than the peak of a true-sine normally. The inrush currents are higher in a power supply when driven by a non-sine inverter and that will place higher strain on the input capacitors and other components leading to earlier failure. Instantaneous .... unlikely, but reduced life, possibly.

Semiman
 

hiuintahs

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I agree with Semiman. A typical generator runs at a fixed output of 3600 RPM (60 cycles per second) and the sine wave is generated by this mechanical motion. It is not a modified sine wave such as you find in many inverters and should work fine for most everything.

I personally have an inverter generator (pure sine wave).....like a Honda or a Yamaha. And the #1 reason is because they are a lot quieter and won't disturb campers or your neighbors as much but they are a lot more expensive. The sine wave may be a little purer than the mechanical generator but that wasn't my reason for getting one.
 
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SemiMan

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A lot run at 1800 rpm. I have my differences of opinion on whether other campers find your generator annoying.

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ChrisGarrett

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Harbor Freight makes nothing.

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You're correct, obviously.

Right now, I have 10 hours on it, powering a large industrial fan and it's been fine. A little knocking, at tmes, but so far, so good. I'm in Miami and we're in hurricane season, so my buddy decided to buy me one at Christmas time and I'm breaking it in. I won't do the 25 hours, as suggested, but another 3 and I'll call it a day.

I've looked at the Honda EF2000, the Yammie and the Robin-Subaru units and I just can't pony up the funds for one of those, so I'm stuck with what I have,.

The rule of thumb with my unit is is that sensitive electronics might not fare too well running off of it, is all I was trying to state.

Chris
 

SemiMan

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Can always run a battery charger and a small sine wave inverter for sensitive stuff. I keep a few kWh of surplus lead avid batteries around. They do double duty of course.

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lightseeker2009

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Thanks for all the replies guys. I take it then that it will be money well spend. I'm looking at the small Honda 900W.
 

itguy07

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Harbor Freight makes a household generator? That's scary..

Why? I've got one, their Chicago 5500w unit. Starts right up, makes decent power and saved our butt many times. They are actually decent generators for the price. I exercise ours once a month so I know it will work when we need it.

I woudn't worry about running things on generator power as long as the volts are relatively steady and the cycles are around 60Hz. Your "sensitive electronics" like laptops and TV's will most likley be happy from 100-250v as they have world power supplies and convert AC to DC to run the stuff inside. Some may do an AC/AC conversion but if it has an input voltage of 110-240 you're fine.

The inverter ones are nice but they are also quite expensive. IIRC we paid about $500 for our 5kW Harbor Freight unit. You can get a 2kW inverter for that money and can't touch a Honda or Yamaha for that $$.
 

mattheww50

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The bind with non-sine wave output is rarely the voltage, even relatively wide swings (117-131 Volts isn't that large). Induction devices like most AC motors in many devices don't care all that much. That's why when things get tough, the electric company can and sometimes does reduce the voltage on the network. The large voltage swings are much more troublesome for pure resistance loads, like heaters and light bulbs. A 115V lightbulb will have its life substantially shortened by running it at 130 volts.

The bind with non-sinewave devices is just how far they depart from sinewave. The closer they are to a sinewave, the less trouble they are likely to be. There are some inverters that actually have square wave output. These tend to be elecrically quite noisy because of the spikes, and the output of a transformer is proportional to the rate of change of the current in the winding, so square wave input to a power transform may produce spikes that are a substantial multiple of nominal output voltage. So a square wave input to a transformer produces output voltage spikes that are far higher than the turns ratio would suggest in response to these spikes. There is no end to the kind of damage this can cause. It is these spikes that can do real damage to things like TV sets, computers and anything else that may use a switching power supply. Square wave power to pure resistance loads light lightbulbs and heaters won't make any difference.

Having said that, most actual generators that operate by turning the shaft to produce AC output will produce a reasonably good sine wave. As others have indicated regulation may not be great, but the reality is anything between 55 and 65 hz, and 110-135volts is likely to work reasonably well, and is unlikely to do damage. Many years ago the ARRL Radio Amateurs handbook had a very simple test for a generator. Plug in a clock with a synchronous motor. If in 60 seconds the second hand moved anywhere between 55 and 65 seconds, the generator was considered usable.
 

hiuintahs

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I realize that the inverter generators are more expensive and not for everyone. I think 4500 watts is about the biggest you can get an inverter generator. However the advantage of the smaller generators is that if you don't need the power, then you save fuel. A Yamaha EF1000iS generator has a 0.66 gallon tank and will run 10 hours or more depending on load. The Honda would be the same.

So before showing what I've done so others may learn, this is by no means meant to brag or put other ideas down or to even push the Yamaha's. I would have bought Honda if I could have found the same deals as I had. It's just that Yamaha and Honda have been in the small motor / generator business for a long time.

#1 - If you have a big generator but have a light load you will consume a lot more fuel than if using a small generator with the same load. That is why the 2 generators......one that stays at home and one that I occasionally take with me camping. I'm not an RVer otherwise my "small" generator would be a 2000.

#2 - I like the fact that the inverter generators are quieter. Sure they still have a motor but if you put an extension cord on it so that its not right next to you, the sound is very tolerable.

#3 - I think there are more propane conversion kits available for the inverter generators and that might be because they are so popular with the RVer's. My reason for converting the 3000 watt generator over to propane is that I seldom use this generator and gasoline goes bad. Propane storage is safer and so you can store more propane for emergency use. This generator fires up right away after sitting unused for 6 months at a time. The drawback is that BTU output of propane is less than gasoline and so I have lost some power. I can reverse back to gasoline if need be.

#4 - Notice that I have an extension cord with 4 outlets. The cable is 10AWG and the plug goes into the 30amp receptacle on the generator. That way I can have one cord that goes from the generator into my house and then use individual extension cords from there. That keeps the exhaust fumes away from the home. In an emergency, I only plan on running the essentials and not my whole house. A 3000 watt generator is minimum without tripping any device that can run on a 20 amp household circuit breaker. In other words I could use this generator to run my power tools (one at a time if need be) if I was in a remote location.

 

tripplec

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Most purely mechanical generators have a pretty good sine wave output. The issue as pointed out is that voltage, especially on the cheaper ones bounces all over the place, typically as the load changes. Purely mechanical generators attempt to run at a fixed RPM in order to maintain a constant voltage output.

Generators with built in inverters generate an intermediate voltage that is then converted to a fixed AC output. The voltage is stable and the generator is able to run at a variable speed as output voltage is no longer tied to generator speed. That said, there is no guarantee this is a pure sine wave output and for low cost generators, I don't have confidence that is what they would use. It is more costly to implement a high efficiency sine wave inverter.

It is impossible to say what damage is any will be caused by a non sine wave inverter. Most things will be driven by a switch mode supply and most of them will be happy with a non-sine input, but depending on the design, they may not turn on assuming the output voltage is too low as the peak voltage is lower than the peak of a true-sine normally. The inrush currents are higher in a power supply when driven by a non-sine inverter and that will place higher strain on the input capacitors and other components leading to earlier failure. Instantaneous .... unlikely, but reduced life, possibly.

Semiman

Well he's pretty well nailed it here.

A gas generator is big coil of wiring can magnetic field inducting the current in that coil basically. It is and only can be sine wave. However, what frequency (60HZ is what it should be), what voltage (this being the biggest issue). You don't want it going above 120VAC, most equipment will handle up to 125VAC but after that damage may occur due to heat and internal stresses after some time. Switching power supplies have a high tolerance for frequency and voltage and usually work down to 90VAC and above 125VAC.

DC to AC solid state inverters is another question. It really depends on the OEM. Most will be fine but verify their spec's and what they're built for. Here the output is NOT sine wave and can be sawtooth, simulated sinewave (a stepped square wave pattern), or the worst square wave which is the hardest on everything plugged in. There is no ramp up of voltage or gradually decline as it crosses the zero volt line but an instant rise and drop either side of zero.
 

itguy07

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Another thing to remember is most devices with "world" power adapters are built to withstand some pretty crummy power as not everyone has access to "clean" power. So the components should be a little more robust.

I've run laptops, electronics, refrig's, freezers, pumps, microwaves, etc off generator and cheap inverter power. No magic smoke has come out and in the case of electronics like laptops, it's likely to be obsolete well before the shortened life will be an issue.
 

Glenn99Moore

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Most purely mechanical generators have a pretty good sine wave output. The issue as pointed out is that voltage, especially on the cheaper ones bounces all over the place, typically as the load changes. Purely mechanical generators attempt to run at a fixed RPM in order to maintain a constant voltage output.

Generators with built in inverters generate an intermediate voltage that is then converted to a fixed AC output. The voltage is stable and the generator is able to run at a variable speed as output voltage is no longer tied to generator speed. That said, there is no guarantee this is a pure sine wave output and for low cost generators, I don't have confidence that is what they would use. It is more costly to implement a high efficiency sine wave inverter.

It is impossible to say what damage is any will be caused by a non sine wave inverter. Most things will be driven by a switch mode supply and most of them will be happy with a non-sine input, but depending on the design, they may not turn on assuming the output voltage is too low as the peak voltage is lower than the peak of a true-sine normally. The inrush currents are higher in a power supply when driven by a non-sine inverter and that will place higher strain on the input capacitors and other components leading to earlier failure. Instantaneous .... unlikely, but reduced life, possibly.



Semiman
Hi, a guy from the 50Hz world. First thing to be aware of when getting an alternator generator (I know that sounds weird but stick with me), is that many cheap 50Hz 240V generator sets are 60Hz 230V knockoffs. In short the alternator in these sets is rated for 230V (this is two 115V phases in series). Normally these generators have two outlets, each 115V 60Hz. You can check the polarity of these two outlets by bridging a Voltmeter across the the active pin of one outlet to the outlet pin of the second outlet. If you see 0 volts a.c. then the two outlets are connected in parallel, but if you see 230V a.c. then they are connected in anti-phase. This makes it simpler for the manufacturer to change the output to 230V a.c. Now for a 60Hz set the engine revolves at 3600 rpm, but for a 50Hz output the engine rpm is reduced to 3000 rpm. Now it is the way of things that if an alternator produces 230V a.c. at 3600 rpm then all things being equal, it will generate 3000/3600x230V or 191.7V a.c at 50Hz.
Needless to say this is a long way from the Australian standard of 240V (actually 230V -6%/+10%).


The way they get it back to 230V at 50Hz is to increase the excitation current through the field coil of the alternator to increase the magnetic field strength within the gap between the rotor (the revolving centre) and stator (the stationary body) of the alternator. This then increases the output voltage back to 230V. Only trouble is that this is a 20% increase in the field current, and hence magnetic field strength, puts the stator/rotor combination close to a limiting process called magnetic saturation. This is where an increase in excitation current produces only a little increase in magnetic field and hence only a small increase in output voltage. In short, the alternator has reached its maximum output power under a normal load at 50Hz, with little in reserve to counteract reduction of output voltage under a fluctuating maximum load.


To add to this deficiency, we now have a reciprocating motor, designed to provide maximum mechanical power output at 3600 rpm, now being expected to output the same mechanical power at 16.7% less rpm. Well reciprocating motors don't work like that and for a simple reciprocating engine reducing rpm by 16.7% means, to a first approximation, power output drops by 16.7% also. Why, because with a fixed displacement per stroke, then a fixed amount of gasoline / air mixture is ignited per compression stroke and so a fixed amount of mechanical energy is generated per revolution of the engine. This means mechanical output power is directly related to the rpm of the engine. Hence the lower the rpm speed of the engine the lower the maximum mechanical power it can generate and hence the lower the maximum electrical output can be obtained from the generating set.
Finally one last thing to note on the engine side. The mechanical energy that is stored in the rotating crankshaft, pistons and flywheel is proportional to the square of the rpm of the engine. This means that at 3600 rpm the motor has (3600/3000 squared) or nearly 44% more stored mechanical energy to keep the generating set close to 60Hz output under sudden load increase / decrease. At 50Hz output the situation is reversed and compared to a 60Hz setup, the same generating set has 30.5% less mechanical energy stored to counteract load fluctuations. This is an important issue as it means that a load increase from zero to full will cause the 60Hz setup to grunt a little but recover both voltage and frequency within a second or so of the load increase. But with the same generating set reduced to a 50Hz setup, the output voltage may well collapse with insufficient field current to counter the load increase and the output frequency drop as the motor staggers with insufficient stored energy to handle the sudden load increase and barely enough mechanical power to restore frequency to normal. Hence this droop may well last several seconds before stabilizing to normal values.


In summary then, is it any wonder one hears stories of how bad an alternator generating set is compared with an inverter generator when supplying delicate electronic equipment. The caveat here is that one should ensure that both the alternator and motor are rated for the frequency of operation found in your local area before purchasing, especially if your local area has 50Hz mains.
 

mattheww50

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Actually the larger generators usually run at 1500 rpm for 50Hz or 1800 rpm for 60Hz. This generally results in substantially longer life for the equipment. The other solution to the 50/60hz problem is to use a belt drive. This allows the motor to turn at the desired rpm, and simply changing one of the pulleys will change the output from 50hz to 60Hz, although that usually involves raising the exciter current to maintain the desired voltage.
 

scout24

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Turbodog- EU7000is if I recall? The EU6500is was discontinued, but stock is still available in some places. It was replaced by the 7000. 7000 is fuel injected, and so far an awesome unit...
 
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