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Thread: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

  1. #31

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Yeah I've never had any problems with NiMH in a flashlight. They tend to not be so bright as alkaline to start off with but the alkaline voltage sags very quickly in a flashlight whereas the NiMH can keep supplying decent output for much longer.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Hello N8N,

    Keep in mind that the voltage rating for Alkaline and NiMh cells are under different conditions.

    Alkaline cells are rated 1.5 volts for a new cell and under open circuit conditions.

    NiMh cells are rated 1.2 volts under load.

    In actual use a cell is under load so to get a comparison you need to review a test graph that shows the Alkaline cell under load to see if its voltage exceeds the NiMh cell.

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    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  3. #33
    Flashaholic* Wrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by N8N View Post
    ...but a device will only draw what it draws, current in use is based on the device, not the battery. The only time the internal resistance of the battery becomes relevant is when we're talking about super high powered flashlights or other ultra high current draw devices, but again, low internal battery resistance shouldn't have any ill effects on a device designed for alkalines.

    ...
    I agree that NiMH cells should be more than fine in general as a replacement for alkaline cells, but I just wanted to point out that the performance and electrochemical characteristics of a battery can very much effect the current that it is pushing through a circuit. Current (in a basic circuit) is proportional to the resistance of the circuit (which includes the internal resistance of a battery) and the voltage of the cell(s).

    It is very much incorrect and potentially dangerous to say and think that a device will only "draw" what it "draws" as this is pretty much actually completely backwards from how electricity works.

    For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law

    ...

    Anyway, yes. I've pretty much replaced all my alkaline cells with Eneloops. The only alkaline cells I've bought in the last several years have been ones that unfortunately came with different electronic devices, or for others that aren't interested in using anything else. My wife did mistakenly pick up a pack of alkaline AAs a few months ago though... Yeah, she should know better (since we have extra unused alkaline cells anyway), but what'll you do?
    Last edited by Wrend; 09-01-2013 at 07:55 AM.

  4. #34
    Flashaholic* hopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    The D-cell sleeve conversion for Ni-mH AA cells is simple and works. I use them in a big mag-lite.

    The D-cell type is curious. Probably just some marketing people trying for change and generate new sales.

    decades ago I bought 2 rechargeable D-cells which died. cut one open and it had a tiny sub-aaa
    cell soldered in the mostly empty volume of the D-cell. think they were from Radio Shack >circa 1980?

  5. #35

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by hopkins View Post
    The D-cell sleeve conversion for Ni-mH AA cells is simple and works. I use them in a big mag-lite.

    The D-cell type is curious. Probably just some marketing people trying for change and generate new sales.

    decades ago I bought 2 rechargeable D-cells which died. cut one open and it had a tiny sub-aaa
    cell soldered in the mostly empty volume of the D-cell. think they were from Radio Shack >circa 1980?
    lol

    What do you mean by D-cell sleeve conversion?

  6. #36

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by hopkins View Post
    decades ago I bought 2 rechargeable D-cells which died. cut one open and it had a tiny sub-aaa
    cell soldered in the mostly empty volume of the D-cell. think they were from Radio Shack >circa 1980?
    I thought this was old news?
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...attery-Exposed

  7. #37

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mccririck View Post
    lol

    What do you mean by D-cell sleeve conversion?
    I'm assuming he means the single cell adapters like Sanyo sells for Eneloops, same concept as the parallel adapters we were discussing earlier except only one AA or AAA cell is used to replace each larger cell. Very much like the energizer D cell that prompted this thread but it's clear what you're doing so there's no surprise from the reduced capacity.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by hopkins View Post
    The D-cell sleeve conversion for Ni-mH AA cells is simple and works. I use them in a big mag-lite. Reply With Quote

    The D-cell type is curious. Probably just some marketing people trying for change and generate new sales.

    decades ago I bought 2 rechargeable D-cells which died. cut one open and it had a tiny sub-aaa
    cell soldered in the mostly empty volume of the D-cell. think they were from Radio Shack >circa 1980?
    Historically, the D cell is on of the oldest still in wide use today. The smaller cells weren't much use until later, although wikipedia says 1909 for AAs and 1911 for AAAs which is earlier than I would have expected. I wonder what they were used for back then?

  9. #39

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrend View Post
    I agree that NiMH cells should be more than fine in general as a replacement for alkaline cells, but I just wanted to point out that the performance and electrochemical characteristics of a battery can very much effect the current that it is pushing through a circuit. Current (in a basic circuit) is proportional to the resistance of the circuit (which includes the internal resistance of a battery) and the voltage of the cell(s).

    It is very much incorrect and potentially dangerous to say and think that a device will only "draw" what it "draws" as this is pretty much actually completely backwards from how electricity works.
    How so? if a device is designed to work on one voltage, and a lower voltage is applied to it, then if it is a purely resistive load, it will follow Ohm's law and actually draw *less* current. In the instance of e.g. a regulated LED driver module, it will draw more current, but only what is needed to provide the desired current through the LED. Let's say you have an old 2-cell incan flashlight with a 3W bulb in it, so that's a current of 1A @ 3V or an effective resistance of 3 ohms. The internal resistance of the two cells makes a negligible contribution to the resistance of the circuit as a whole... production variations in bulb filaments probably have more to do with the life of the bulb than does internal resistance of the cells. (I picked that example because a flashlight with more cells would operate at a higher voltage and therefore have a proportionally higher resistance bulb filament for the same light output)

    Additionally, any device that is able to be powered by a wall wart should be able to accept straight DC voltage of its nominal rating with no effective external resistance without issue.

    I'm trying, but I can't think of a common example where the internal resistance of the cells would be in any way relevant.


    Anyway, yes. I've pretty much replaced all my alkaline cells with Eneloops. The only alkaline cells I've bought in the last several years have been ones that unfortunately came with different electronic devices, or for others that aren't interested in using anything else. My wife did mistakenly pick up a pack of alkaline AAs a few months ago though... Yeah, she should know better (since we have extra unused alkaline cells anyway), but what'll you do?
    and that was my point, they are pretty much a drop in replacement for AA or AAA cells 90+ percent of the time.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Floppy View Post
    Maybe it is, I wasn't even aware that energizer made rechargeable Cs and Ds until I saw them in that one Target.

    For the "#1 selling rechargeable brand in the world" the sure aren't trying to get their whole product line out there.

    But as badly as they suck, perhaps it's no surprise they're not selling.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Alkaline cells only deliver 1.5V at the very beginning of their operating lives. Under significant load, their voltage sags well below 1.5V due to internal resistance and other factors limiting their ability to deliver current.

    Energizer Performance Data: "C" (E93) / "D" (E95). Unfortunately, Energizer does not show voltage-vs-discharge rate curves for their alkaline cells. The "D" NiMH datasheet does show the curve - note the far lower voltage as the discharge current progressively increases. This phenomenon will be replicated on their alkaline cells, likely with a curve similar to the other time graphs.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  12. #42
    Flashaholic* Wrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by N8N View Post
    How so? if a device is designed to work on one voltage, and a lower voltage is applied to it, then if it is a purely resistive load, it will follow Ohm's law and actually draw *less* current. In the instance of e.g. a regulated LED driver module, it will draw more current, but only what is needed to provide the desired current through the LED. Let's say you have an old 2-cell incan flashlight with a 3W bulb in it, so that's a current of 1A @ 3V or an effective resistance of 3 ohms. The internal resistance of the two cells makes a negligible contribution to the resistance of the circuit as a whole... production variations in bulb filaments probably have more to do with the life of the bulb than does internal resistance of the cells. (I picked that example because a flashlight with more cells would operate at a higher voltage and therefore have a proportionally higher resistance bulb filament for the same light output)

    Additionally, any device that is able to be powered by a wall wart should be able to accept straight DC voltage of its nominal rating with no effective external resistance without issue.

    I'm trying, but I can't think of a common example where the internal resistance of the cells would be in any way relevant.



    and that was my point, they are pretty much a drop in replacement for AA or AAA cells 90+ percent of the time.
    OK, I misunderstood what you meant, then. Yes, at a constant voltage and a constant resistance you should have a constant current. I was just pointing out that both the voltage source and the resistance of the circuit determine how much current the given voltage can push through. And of course, just because a battery is capable of supplying more current doesn't mean that it will at a given specific voltage. However, if the voltage would have normally dropped lower with a "weaker" battery, then of course you could have the "stronger" battery with its ability to maintain a higher voltage, push more current through the circuit than the "weaker" battery would have been able to. Still, this isn't likely to be an issue with devices that are designed to work at these voltage levels, and I wasn't trying to imply that it necessarily would be. Someone may just be able to get better "performance" (such as maintaining a brighter light for longer, torque and/or RPMs on a motor, and so on) using a "stronger" battery.

    Also, keep in mind that batteries aren't constant voltage sources and that their voltages will lower as their capacities are discharged. At a constant given discharge/drain rate the voltage and type of voltage curve the batteries have as they discharge is in part determined by their chemistry type.

    The reason I brought this up is because at first it seemed that you didn't have an understanding of Ohm's law, and thought that the current was always regulated to a specific level by the device, regardless of voltage. Believe it or not, I have actually come across this kind of thinking rather frequently with others on-line. I think it could be a misunderstanding of the concepts of "load" and "draw" that is throwing them off.

    Specifically, this is what got my attention: "...but a device will only draw what it draws, current in use is based on the device, not the battery." Of course, however, the battery's voltage can in part "determine" how much current it is able to "push" through a circuit's given resistance (which also includes the battery's internal resistance).

    Thanks for clarifying what you meant.
    Last edited by Wrend; 09-02-2013 at 07:54 AM.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    well, after we both posted I actually thought of a situation where internal resistance might cause an undesirably higher current to be drawn with a lower voltage but lower internal resistance source... a LED run at direct drive close to its limits.

    I haven't run the numbers to see if it would actually work out that way, but it seems plausible. Wasn't ever a concern to me because I don't think I have any direct drive lights save for maybe the inexpensive Task Force 3W ones (not sure if those are direct drive or not, but they're not as amazing today as they were a couple years ago.)

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by N8N View Post
    well, after we both posted I actually thought of a situation where internal resistance might cause an undesirably higher current to be drawn with a lower voltage but lower internal resistance source... a LED run at direct drive close to its limits.

    I haven't run the numbers to see if it would actually work out that way, but it seems plausible. Wasn't ever a concern to me because I don't think I have any direct drive lights save for maybe the inexpensive Task Force 3W ones (not sure if those are direct drive or not, but they're not as amazing today as they were a couple years ago.)
    From what I've heard, some of the older LED Lenser lights had this problem. They would use the high internal resistance of alkaline batteries to limit current. And if you tried running them on NiMH, you would blow the emitter(s).

  15. #45

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    From what I've heard, some of the older LED Lenser lights had this problem. They would use the high internal resistance of alkaline batteries to limit current. And if you tried running them on NiMH, you would blow the emitter(s).
    Was commonplace early on in a number of 2-cell lights when "power" LED Vf for max current was generally around 3.6V and likely voltage ranges for a pair of alkaline/NiMH cells were well within the range where the system could conceivably self-regulate. These were not particularly bright lights, but the runtime was excellent and they generally did at least we well on brightness as AA incans.

    Direct-drive on 3+ cells was always iffy and released many a puff of magic smoke.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  16. #46
    Flashaholic* snakebite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    the sub c or aa in the c or d sleeve has been the norm since the first ge rechargeables in the 60's
    modern ones are not significantly different either! at least they are now 3000mah

    i am always looking for old radios and tv sets.tube stuff.ham gear.i repair all the above.
    email me for more info. SPAMMERS WILL BE PUNISHED!

  17. #47

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by snakebite View Post
    the sub c or aa in the c or d sleeve has been the norm since the first ge rechargeables in the 60's
    modern ones are not significantly different either! at least they are now 3000mah
    SubC would arguably be a step up from the AA / AAA cells being sleeved into today's C/D cells.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    the one i remember were a saft "again and again" c cell with a aa nicad inside.
    i find the current 3000mah sub c c and d units a steal when they gather dust and go on clearance for 39cents a 2 pack.
    i bought about 200 packages last year that way.
    friends at the shop thought i was crazy to be tearing apart brand new batteries and filling a trashcan with scraps.till they saw the box of sub c cells and finally figured out that thats what the tool packs use!

    i am always looking for old radios and tv sets.tube stuff.ham gear.i repair all the above.
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  19. #49

    Default Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    The problem here is that the General public has been burned on Rechargables in the past and probably doesn't want to try again. So they just buy alkalines by the pack for their battery draining toys, I find I don't have issues with extreme battery drain in anything since I have good Rechargables even devices that other people say need their batteries changed every couple days will last me at least 2-3 weeks with Rechargables. With reports from friends and family that Rechargables bought in a store last 6-10 charges before they either stop holding a charge or go dead before they get to use them its no wonder no one wants to try them again even though today's battery tech is significantly different than that of 6-10 years ago,

    Another problem is the chargers, which is where most of the " I have been burned" comes from. No retail store sells a quality charger that I can find around here, most of the time it's not even the battery that is the problem it is the charger and how it's being used. I find it incredibly easy to use a Lacrosse BC700 even easier than a dummy charger as it tells you exactly when the battery is full with the word full on the display I think even a dummy could operate this charger it's literately that easy.

    Battery sales are also sagging because a lot of manufactures are just using lithium ion batteries now which means you don't have to buy alkaline cells.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    It was around 2005 when I first decided to purchase NiMH batteries. (Right about then, there was a big "hoopla" in Japan about rechargables, probably initiated by the introduction of Eneloops.)

    So, I certainly noticed the Eneloops, but (too my great regret, and not knowing any better) I ended up purchasing Panasonic Evolta rechargeables. But, I have never looked back, and have never purchased another Alkaline battery since. (I tend to accumulate cheap Alkalines, because in Japan, most products come with "batteries included." I almost never use those batteries, so I end up with a constant supply on hand. Mostly, I give them away to people who ask me if I have any spare batteries handy.)

    Having recently understood the benefits of LSD technology, I have started transitioning to Eneloops. And, I also invested in a MAHA MH-C9000 to test/analyze all my old Evolta batteries.

    While I live in Japan, I sometimes visit the USA for extended periods, and one such time, I said "what the heck" and purchased a 4 pack of rechargables packaged with a cheap charger (Rayovac?)... the price seemed right. But, they turned out to be absolute and utter "junk." I was amazed at how quickly they failed (killed by the cheap charger no doubt). So, I tend to agree with this thread... it almost seems as if the USA Alkaline battery manufacturers would prefer that people have a bad experience with rechargeables.

    By contrast, my first Japanese Panasonic batteries came packaged with a BQ-391 charger that charges 4 x AA or 2 X AAA on individual circuits.

    Since I use a large number of AAAs I also purchased a BQ-321 which came with a set of AAA cells. That charger only charges in pairs (either 2 x AA or 2 x AAA) but it is extremely compact, and convenient for that reason.

    As it turned out, I had ended up purchasing a total of 56 cells (30 AAAs & 26 AAs), but after about 8 years of use, my C9000 indicates that they still have the following capacities:

    - 10 AAAs are between 94-91%, 4 are 89-87%, 3 are 77-72%, 12 are 69-64%, and 1 is at 57%.
    - 21 AAs are between 99-90%, 4 are 87-82%, and 1 is at 69%

    (I put the worst AAA into a LCD thermometer and it is doing fine. I will have to wait know for certain, but I suspect that despite its poor condition it will still be "useful" in that application for several months between recharge cycles.)

    My point is that even after about 8 years, many of my Japanese rechargables are still going strong.

    Granted, these Evolta cells were not cheap. And, I am not really certain that I truly "got my money's worth" because I didn't keep any data. But, it sure seems to me like it has been well worth it (having never purchased any Alkalines since). And, if nothing else, the Japanese people are very concerned about how you dispose of batteries in Japan, so never having to throw any batteries away has been nice.

    I just wanted to contrast my good experience with Japanese rechargeables with my bad experience with USA rechargeables that "died" in a matter of months, with only a ridiculously low number of charge cycles.
    Last edited by Rosoku Chikara; 09-04-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    I agree with both of you... the chargers available through retail channels are even worse than the cells that we have, with a few exceptions (Duraloops, etc.) and there really doesn't seem to be any marketing whatsoever. Also, the introduction of LSD cells is a Huge Deal in that you can now use rechargeables for remote controls, etc. and also it completely changes the way you deal with rechargeables - instead of having to maintain, rotate, recharge etc. even cells that you're not using, or else only use them when you have a day or two ahead of use to charge them up, you can simply charge them, put them in a storage box, and then get them out again when you need them with no hassle... and yet other than some buzzwords on the packaging this was pretty much unheralded in the US market. (and we're pretty inured to marketing anyway as we know it's all pretty much BS.)

    The brief amount of time I spent in Japan I saw Eneloops right next to the regular cells in e.g. Lawson's, or in kiosks... took me a while to get around to trying them, but I wasn't disappointed once I finally made the leap. Being a Person of a Frugal Nature (hey, I grew up in PA in a family of German heritage, I come by it honestly) I like the idea that if I run out of juice, I can grab a fresh set, put the old ones on the charger, and for only a couple cents worth of electricity repeat as necessary... and that I'm not reliant on there being stores etc. when I need to power up something that runs on batteries.

    It's even more frustrating to me (and I apologize if it sounds like I'm going off on a rant here) that it seems like SOP whenever I consider purchasing something (not limited to this example) is that I have to join an enthusiast forum, research something extensively to the point where I'm competent to choose products, then realize that what I'm looking for is not available through retail channels, and purchase online. While I don't like relying on stores, I do like to patronize local businesses if possible so that they'll be there if I do end up needing them. But they just aren't meeting my needs... not just for rechargeable cells but in many other ways. But, as I said, I rant...

    But maybe that's just me...
    Last edited by N8N; 09-04-2013 at 01:51 PM.

  22. #52
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    This morning I thought I should check the alkaline batteries that were in an older scientific calculator. The batteries, which were made by a top manufacturer that I would continue to purchase from, had just started to leak. Fortunately the leaking substance was only on the batteries, and not on the calculator itself. Had I waited much longer to check, it would hve been a different story.

    NiMH rechargeables are looking better and better.

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    NiMH rechargeables are looking better and better.
    Or lithium (Not LiIon), depending on how much you are using the equipment.
    My website with flashlight, battery and charger information: lygte-info.
    More than 200 battery reviews and 80 charger reviews.
    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  24. #54

    Default Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.

    I also think it has to do with being burned in the past, and a lot of people don't even understand the technology in rechargable batteries is much different today than it was 8 years ago with cells that actually hold a charge while in storage. None of this is conveyed through marketing. I only seem to see marketing for alkalines these days. A lot of people went back to alkalines after spending a chunk on one of those $18 energizer chargers from Walmart and got burned when the batteries lasted a couple cycles and then stopped holding a charge they just won't spent the initial investment again no matter what.

    I also think the batteries could be damaged on the shelf from sitting too long, perhaps a lot of people got a set of batteries that sat for several years then refused to charge which could explain the quick death stories I hear from friends and family, this happened to me a couple times if a battery is too old it will only charge to a certain point then stop which means they never get full capacity out of the box, can be fixed with several refresh cycles but no chargers in retail stores are capable of doing a refresh cycle but if a store manages their inventory correctly this should not happen.

    I also seem to have the problem that many of you have, there always seems to be a better product online than there is in the stores, I am guessing US retail is just concerned with meeting certain price points on their goods instead of actually providing a quality product that will last instead of something you have to replace after a couple uses. The thing is the better products are almost always available for a lower price online than is an inferior product in a store no wonder people are getting away from retail and doing more shopping online these days.

    We also have few specialty shops in my area where items like these might be sold, in Japan there are specialty shops for everything everywhere, but I think a shop that specialized in electronics and batteries here wouldn't get far since the major chains would take them out before a month of business.

    Our culture in the US is to buy what you can for the cheapest price up front regardless of how well it performs, which is why alkalines sell so much, they are easy and convienient and people who buy them for kids toys don't care since they just throw the toy out if the batteries leak in another disposal of yet another item when in the past the item was saved and passed down to another child. My parents were savers and big on hand me downs so this disposable throw it away even if it has a tiny defect culture is definitely news to me. I would even go so far as to say that parents throw away things that are perfectly working because they are too lazy to change the batteries in them, I have seen this happens lots of times. Even if you showed most general consumers the best batteries and gave demo's on how they performed only certain people would buy them, and probably not the people who can really benefit from them because no one simply wants to make that huge investment up front, they would rather pay $5 for a pack of 4 alkalines and be on their way.

    There are so many reasons to switch to Rechargables its not even funny.

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraAB87 View Post
    I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.

    Bad chargers can DEFINITELY cause problems. Cheap, 15 minute chargers that cook batteries and timer-based chargers that overcharge as a matter of course have certainly caused their fair share of problems with rechargeable batteries. But in my experience, cheap smart chargers can be the WORST. If one cell terminates early and you don't know about it, there is a very high chance that cell is going to go into reverse charge (because it went dead before the other cells) and be fried. At least timer-based trickle chargers will end up putting an equal charge on the batteries.


    Quote Originally Posted by SaraAB87 View Post
    I would even go so far as to say that parents throw away things that are perfectly working because they are too lazy to change the batteries in them, I have seen this happens lots of times.

    You can blame alot of this on pricing. Alot of the time, if you buy some really cheap item that comes with batteries included, it could cost MORE to replace the batteries than to simply replace the item. This is especially common with really cheap flashlights. Perhaps the best example of this would be those small button cell LED flashlights that cost a dollar or two. If you were to replace the batteries, you would probably pay closer to $5-$6. It's not too different from the $30 printer that needs $40 of ink.
    Last edited by StorminMatt; 09-06-2013 at 01:19 PM.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by N8N View Post
    Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying to score some cheap Duraloops.

    http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

    Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell?

    Was looking at the comments section, and noticed a lot of complaints about the time to recharge as well.

    Any idea why the charger Energizer sells for them that would take 24 hours to charge a 2500mAh battery?
    Another commented 14 hours, which still sounds really long.
    The manual for the "Recharge" universal "value" charger (that can do C/D/9V) says 12-14hrs.
    In the manual it says 2.8V @ 180-200mA or 9V @ 11-18mA!

    And the "universal" charger is a little better. 1100mA for 1 or 2, and 550mA for 3 or 4. Still 3-5 hrs.

    The other chargers are all AA/AAA only. The "smart" charger any better, 500mA for AA.
    The "rapid" charger is ok, with 8.6A for 2xAA or 4.3 for 4xAA.
    But why not a version of the "rapid" charger for the C/D/9V sizes?

    Those 500mA or less chargers should not even be offered. Trying to make the products fail.
    If the only chargers for the C/D/9V sizes are that bad, no one will use them.
    The 1100mA charger should be the low end, and a 8+A rapid charger available.
    Maybe a 3rd between them.

    And this response is priceless
    Energizer Recharge D Cell batteries are much less powerful than an alkaline battery. It's only a 1.2V battery with 2500mAh where the Energizer Max alkaline is 1.5V 20,500mAh. In a device like a baby swing they may not last as long per use however they can be recharged and used many times. Please call Energizer Consumer Affairs at 1.800.383.7323 to discuss this under the terms of our guarantee.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraAB87 View Post
    I am not sure if it chalks up to stupidity of the consumer in the US or what but really I think it's the chargers and the cells are fine, though someone with more money than me would have to do a test to see if a charger really does make a difference. Aka someone buys a cheap Duracell charger and batteries and uses it together as the package says and then buys a pack of the same Duracell cells and uses them in a good charger. Though I am not even sure if such a test is necessary as we all know what would likely happen.

    I also think it has to do with being burned in the past, and a lot of people don't even understand the technology in rechargable batteries is much different today than it was 8 years ago with cells that actually hold a charge while in storage. None of this is conveyed through marketing. I only seem to see marketing for alkalines these days. A lot of people went back to alkalines after spending a chunk on one of those $18 energizer chargers from Walmart and got burned when the batteries lasted a couple cycles and then stopped holding a charge they just won't spent the initial investment again no matter what.
    And that's kind of where I'm coming from here - that was exactly my experience in the past; I bought some NiMHs and a charger in some local store, possibly Target or K-Mart or something, they really didn't work very well,, so that stopped that. A few years later I'd vaguely heard of these things called Eneloops and that they worked well, but I was skeptical - if they were so good, surely they'd be available if not in normal stores at least in places that sold electronics, video game stores, places like that - but no, I never saw them. I still don't know where to get them in the US save from Amazon, eBay, Thomas Dist., places like that. Duracell had the Duraloops which simply on the product's quality should have been a big deal but I don't remember ever seeing ANY advertising for them, never mind any explaining the differences between them and old school NiCd or NiMH that consumers may have tried in the past - and given that they apparently switched suppliers for the black-top "staycharged" cells and we don't know who's making the new cells that they just introduced, I'm sticking with the brands I know and trust until some reports/reviews come out.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraAB87 View Post
    I also think the batteries could be damaged on the shelf from sitting too long, perhaps a lot of people got a set of batteries that sat for several years then refused to charge which could explain the quick death stories I hear from friends and family, this happened to me a couple times if a battery is too old it will only charge to a certain point then stop which means they never get full capacity out of the box, can be fixed with several refresh cycles but no chargers in retail stores are capable of doing a refresh cycle but if a store manages their inventory correctly this should not happen.
    Again, agree with your comments - but I just picked up some duraloops that had been sitting on the shelf for literally years, and they came right back after a break in cycle (and had over 500mAh in each cell to begin with.) That's a good product, but again, you need a good smart charger to properly charge them. There are acceptable smart chargers in the $30-60 price range; but again, you have to almost obsessive-compulsively research them and then mail order.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraAB87 View Post
    I also seem to have the problem that many of you have, there always seems to be a better product online than there is in the stores, I am guessing US retail is just concerned with meeting certain price points on their goods instead of actually providing a quality product that will last instead of something you have to replace after a couple uses. The thing is the better products are almost always available for a lower price online than is an inferior product in a store no wonder people are getting away from retail and doing more shopping online these days.
    Again, I agree completely...

    If I had the seed money I'm wondering if I could make a go of starting an old school hardware/variety store where I would only sell products that I had personally used and considered acceptable for the intended purpose. e.g. my battery rack would have a few quality alkalines, some Energizer Ultimate Lithiums, and then a selection of Eneloop, Imedion, etc. and good smart chargers. If a customer would ask, or complain about the price, my response would be "these will work and not disappoint you. If you want to pay less you're free to do so, just not here - and I don't want to take your money when you'll be back in six months complaining about the crap that I sold you." Unfortunately, I'm not entirely certain that that attitude would resonate with your average consumer.

    I would like to think that if the average person were actually educated on the difference between alkalines, lithium primaries, NiCd, NiMH, and LSD NiMH we would see that for general consumer use pretty much everyone would be using mostly LSD NiMH and maybe a few lithium primaries for mission critical applications, but that clearly isn't happening at least not looking at the percentage of display space given to each in your average store.

    On a Usenet group that I occasionally read I saw a quote recently that struck home about the quality of consumer goods (from a poster that oddly I usually disagree with on most everything, but in this instance he was right on point) - I'm paraphrasing but it was something along the lines of "I am constantly annoyed that I have to become an expert on pretty much every subject before making a purchase to avoid disappointment." But he's right, and I seem to have the same issue - the number of diverse forums to which I'm subscribed is evidence that I'm attempting to do exactly that!

    And almost but not quite completely off topic... I have two table radios in my house, one downstairs in a basement bedroom is an old German-made Blaupunkt that was built in 1957 or 58 as far as I can tell (still uses tubes, remember those?) and is running off its internal antenna. The one upstairs is a newer Tivoli unit that is well rated and not cheap at all to purchase, and has a split dipole tacked to the exterior wall behind it. My local NPR station is broadcasting with reduced power for tower maintenance. Guess which radio still reliably pulls in that station and which one is pretty much useless?

  28. #58

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Ironically, literally minutes after posting that, my laptop locked up and is giving me a ''disk error" when I tried to reboot. Now that was not how I was planning on spending my Saturday.

    Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk 4

  29. #59
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    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    I think energizer already killed rechargeable batteries for most people with their 2500 mAh cells! The 2500 mAh "D" cell they make, it really wouldnt surprise me if they have one of those cheap and nasty 2500 mAh cells stuck inside! My sister works at walgreens and told me she came across some leaking energizer AAA batteries! Doesn't surprise me in the least! Energizer cells are pure crap...even my own 2300 mAh energizer AA cells are showing higher internal resistance on charging now! Going to order some eneloops soon and be done with it!

  30. #60

    Default Re: Is Energizer trying to kill rechargeable batteries? They're sure trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by N8N View Post
    And almost but not quite completely off topic... I have two table radios in my house, one downstairs in a basement bedroom is an old German-made Blaupunkt that was built in 1957 or 58 as far as I can tell (still uses tubes, remember those?) and is running off its internal antenna. The one upstairs is a newer Tivoli unit that is well rated and not cheap at all to purchase, and has a split dipole tacked to the exterior wall behind it. My local NPR station is broadcasting with reduced power for tower maintenance. Guess which radio still reliably pulls in that station and which one is pretty much useless?
    Rose-colored glasses make the past seem so much more pleasant than it really was. Crap products get binned while quality products endure. The vintage stuff we admire today is generally representative of the best of the time while we look at the entire quality spectrum of contemporary products and are unsurprisingly disappointed since the modern product landscape is littered with both good and bad products.

    Also, radio is not the focal point of people's leisure time entertainment that it once was, thus their overall willingness to pay for quality has dropped precipitously. In America, I suspect the only place you'll tend to find decent AM/FM radio receivers is the one place they're still used consistently - cars - with even home theater receivers having mediocre radios since it's one of the least-used features.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

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